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Two-Weapon Fighting (4 arms, 2 two-handed weapons)


Rules Questions

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I am trying to figure out what the attack bonuses look like for a Kasatha wielding 2 two-handed weapons. I made this chart to help me talk about this question. It assumes Kasatha Fighter(12th) with a BAB of 12 and no other bonuses to hit.

The numbers on this chart were taken from Hero Lab, I am trying to figure out if it's listing for the 2 two-handed weapons is correct.

According to the wording in the "Multiweapon Fighting" feat, creatures that have more than two arms, "It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands."

What do you guys think?


You're going to be looking at +8/+8 with dual greatswords with the MWF feat, due to greatswords not being light weapons.

IF your GM is confortable with it,you could instead take the 3PP feat Titan Grip along with the effortless two-weapon fighting advanced weapon training, and dual wield large sized longswords at +10/+10, or huge longswords at +9/+9 with the Titan slayer feat

(A large longsword is identical to a medium greatsword in everything but name and inappropriately sized weapon rules, abs perhaps weight.)


You might want to be aware of the fact that two-weapon fighting with two two-handed weapons is a bit controversial. You may want to clear it with your GM first.


Knight who says Meh wrote:
You might want to be aware of the fact that two-weapon fighting with two two-handed weapons is a bit controversial. You may want to clear it with your GM first.

It is? I suppose that means there isn't a consensus or clear rules on it anywhere?


They don't even have an official answer on how it works with normal two weapon fighting. Is this for PFS?


wraithstrike wrote:
They don't even have an official answer on how it works with normal two weapon fighting. Is this for PFS?

Nope. I didn't even know Kasthas were PFS legal.


Caleb Garofalo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
They don't even have an official answer on how it works with normal two weapon fighting. Is this for PFS?
Nope. I didn't even know Kasthas were PFS legal.

I don't know if they are either. I really do wish Paizo would make rulings on 4 armed creatures. I'll see what I can find once I'm home.


wraithstrike wrote:
I really do wish Paizo would make rulings on 4 armed creatures.

There are several four-armed creatures in the Bestiaries, and the Kasatha is even so affluent that it became core in Starfinder. You'd think there would be something out there telling us GMs what to do when the Xill picks up 2 two-handed weapons.

My gut is that wielding 2 two-handed weapons, is treated as wielding 2 one-handed (non-light) weapons.

If my gut is right, in the chart the greatswords should be treated as the longsword entry, and the greatsword entry is wrong.

But this is just my gut, I need to know where I can find rules on it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Caleb Garofalo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I really do wish Paizo would make rulings on 4 armed creatures.

There are several four-armed creatures in the Bestiaries, and the Kasatha is even so affluent that it became core in Starfinder. You'd think there would be something out there telling us GMs what to do when the Xill picks up 2 two-handed weapons.

My gut is that wielding 2 two-handed weapons, is treated as wielding 2 one-handed (non-light) weapons.

If my gut is right, in the chart the greatswords should be treated as the longsword entry, and the greatsword entry is wrong.

But this is just my gut, I need to know where I can find rules on it.

There are no rules for dealing with manufactured weapon attacks for PCs with more than 2 arms. So by RAW, adding arms does not allow a PC to do anything with manufactured weapons that a 2 armed PC cannot do (ignoring the ability to physical hold additional items). A lot of people don't like this, but its basically all house rules on how to deal with it.


Calth wrote:
There are no rules for dealing with manufactured weapon attacks for PCs with more than 2 arms. So by RAW, adding arms does not allow a PC to do anything with manufactured weapons that a 2 armed PC cannot do (ignoring the ability to physical hold additional items). A lot of people don't like this, but its basically all house rules on how to deal with it.

You say adding arms, are you sure this applies to the Kasatha? They have 4 arms by default. I feel like what you're talking about refers to Vestigial arms that have specific wording about what they can and cannot do.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Caleb Garofalo wrote:
Calth wrote:
There are no rules for dealing with manufactured weapon attacks for PCs with more than 2 arms. So by RAW, adding arms does not allow a PC to do anything with manufactured weapons that a 2 armed PC cannot do (ignoring the ability to physical hold additional items). A lot of people don't like this, but its basically all house rules on how to deal with it.
You say adding arms, are you sure this applies to the Kasatha? They have 4 arms by default. I feel like what you're talking about refers to Vestigial arms that have specific wording about what they can and cannot do.

The rules assume a two armed PC implicitly. Adding arms, even by race choice such as Kasatha, doesn't do anything with regard to manufactured weapon attacks because no rules exist that says they do. It doesn't matter where you get them from generally. Vestigial arms have their own separate restrictions beyond those of other arms. Arms let you hold weapons, but there is no rule that says they give PCs attacks. And this includes calling an arm an off-hand, which isn't really that informative. PCs can have many more off-hands than available off-hand attacks (which is governed by the two-weapon fighting rule and feat line).

Some people think that since the rules state that two armed characters get two attacks, more arms get more attacks, and some bestiary creatures do follow this. But no actual rule exists that says so.


This argument only applies to a character attempting to use more than two weapons, though
A four-armed character can wield a weapon in each hand. Whether they can attack with all four, or only two of them, isn't the issue here
The issue is whether a four-armed character can wield a two-handed weapon in each pair of hands, and dual-wield in that manner.
No extra attacks, just bigger weapons.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Renata Maclean wrote:

This argument only applies to a character attempting to use more than two weapons, though

A four-armed character can wield a weapon in each hand. Whether they can attack with all four, or only two of them, isn't the issue here
The issue is whether a four-armed character can wield a two-handed weapon in each pair of hands, and dual-wield in that manner.
No extra attacks, just bigger weapons.

Again, that's not true. You can't twf with two-handed weapons because you don't have the action economy to do so. Using a two-handed weapon consumes a set of off-hand attack action economy, and PCs only get 1 set of off-hand attacks, so they can only use one two-handed weapon. I'm ignoring swapping physical weapons as that complicates the issue without providing any meaningful information.


As far as I've ever been concerned about it, you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting with a two handed weapon, like a greatsword(s), because there are no rules for doing so. I seem to be in a minority for that though.

Spoiler:
In Starfinder Kasatha don't get to make extra attacks despite having extra arms they could reasonably do so with. That makes no sense to me either.


Calth wrote:
Renata Maclean wrote:

This argument only applies to a character attempting to use more than two weapons, though

A four-armed character can wield a weapon in each hand. Whether they can attack with all four, or only two of them, isn't the issue here
The issue is whether a four-armed character can wield a two-handed weapon in each pair of hands, and dual-wield in that manner.
No extra attacks, just bigger weapons.
Again, that's not true. You can't twf with two-handed weapons because you don't have the action economy to do so. Using a two-handed weapon consumes a set of off-hand attack action economy, and PCs only get 1 set of off-hand attacks, so they can only use one two-handed weapon. I'm ignoring swapping physical weapons as that complicates the issue without providing any meaningful information.

I'd be interested to see the actual rule that specifies that


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here

Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.


Thanks, that seems reasonable

It does somewhat complicate the issue that the Kasatha presented in the Bestiary favours unarmed combat, so doesn't have enough weapons on them to quad-wield even if it were possible

(For the record, two-weapon fighting isn't a thing in Starfinder. You don't get extra attacks for wielding extra weapons, no matter how many you have)


Calth wrote:
Caleb Garofalo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I really do wish Paizo would make rulings on 4 armed creatures.

There are several four-armed creatures in the Bestiaries, and the Kasatha is even so affluent that it became core in Starfinder. You'd think there would be something out there telling us GMs what to do when the Xill picks up 2 two-handed weapons.

My gut is that wielding 2 two-handed weapons, is treated as wielding 2 one-handed (non-light) weapons.

If my gut is right, in the chart the greatswords should be treated as the longsword entry, and the greatsword entry is wrong.

But this is just my gut, I need to know where I can find rules on it.

There are no rules for dealing with manufactured weapon attacks for PCs with more than 2 arms. So by RAW, adding arms does not allow a PC to do anything with manufactured weapons that a 2 armed PC cannot do (ignoring the ability to physical hold additional items). A lot of people don't like this, but its basically all house rules on how to deal with it.

PC'd and NPC's don't have different rules. If a PC has the same abilities on it's character sheet then it can do the same thing.


Honestly, though, I don't think two-handed weapons are suited for two-weapon fighting anyway
When you wield a two-handed weapon, your arms are now locked into position relative to each other
You have to swing the weapon with your whole body (doing 1.5x Str bonus damage~)
Even if you had four arms, you would be much better with a single weapon held in all four hands, rather than two-by-two
Quad-wielding is different, as your arms have full articulation, and it's just really frigging cool to be a humanoid blender

So that's kind of my take on the matter, completely independent of RAW


There's a character in a certain Adventure Path that dual-wields and TWFs with two two-handed weapons that's often brought up in these conversations, from what I can find. Though that could be chalked up to being a fringe case, or NPC favoring.

adventure name:
Iron Gods has a Kasatha with two chainsaws


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Calth wrote:
Caleb Garofalo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I really do wish Paizo would make rulings on 4 armed creatures.

There are several four-armed creatures in the Bestiaries, and the Kasatha is even so affluent that it became core in Starfinder. You'd think there would be something out there telling us GMs what to do when the Xill picks up 2 two-handed weapons.

My gut is that wielding 2 two-handed weapons, is treated as wielding 2 one-handed (non-light) weapons.

If my gut is right, in the chart the greatswords should be treated as the longsword entry, and the greatsword entry is wrong.

But this is just my gut, I need to know where I can find rules on it.

There are no rules for dealing with manufactured weapon attacks for PCs with more than 2 arms. So by RAW, adding arms does not allow a PC to do anything with manufactured weapons that a 2 armed PC cannot do (ignoring the ability to physical hold additional items). A lot of people don't like this, but its basically all house rules on how to deal with it.
PC'd and NPC's don't have different rules. If a PC has the same abilities on it's character sheet then it can do the same thing.

Then they can go redo the NPCs to make them work correctly since, again, there is no rule equating arms to attacks. All saying PCs and NPCs must work the same(and theres evidence from NPC design guidelines that they don't as in explicit design team guidance that NPCs can do things PCs cant if it fits) does is make the NPCs broken.


LeMoineNoir wrote:

There's a character in a certain Adventure Path that dual-wields and TWFs with two two-handed weapons that's often brought up in these conversations, from what I can find. Though that could be chalked up to being a fringe case, or NPC favoring.

** spoiler omitted **

What character is this? I've been in several of these discussions, and never seen it.


wraithstrike wrote:
LeMoineNoir wrote:

There's a character in a certain Adventure Path that dual-wields and TWFs with two two-handed weapons that's often brought up in these conversations, from what I can find. Though that could be chalked up to being a fringe case, or NPC favoring.

** spoiler omitted **

What character is this? I've been in several of these discussions, and never seen it.

NPC INFO AND SOURCE:
Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's adventure path.

According to that NPC entry, the chart in the OP is correct. You gain the extra attacks that the "two-weapon fighting" feats give you, but without any penalties for fighting with two-weapons. Cool, that's all I needed to know. Thank you for this info.


Many NPC stat blocks in adventure stats are wrong, and they do not get errata'd. Basically an AP is evidence, but not proof of a rule*. If you are the GM, and you feel like it is ok, then I would just allow it, but let your group know that it is subject to change if Paizo answers it in an FAQ one day.

*I actually want this to work, but I also like to be objective.


Caleb Garofalo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
LeMoineNoir wrote:

There's a character in a certain Adventure Path that dual-wields and TWFs with two two-handed weapons that's often brought up in these conversations, from what I can find. Though that could be chalked up to being a fringe case, or NPC favoring.

** spoiler omitted **

What character is this? I've been in several of these discussions, and never seen it.

** spoiler omitted **

According to that NPC entry, the chart in the OP is correct. You gain the extra attacks that the "two-weapon fighting" feats give you, but without any penalties for fighting with two-weapons. Cool, that's all I needed to know. Thank you for this info.

I found the stat block online. There is a -4 penalty to her attacks, so she is taking the penalties as if she/he is using a one handed weapon in each hand.

That is what the chart in the combat section of the CRB also has.

Grand Lodge

Considering they let a Kasatha do it in an AP without any sort of special ability, I'd say that's more than enough justification that it should work.

Especially considering the AP volume in question was written by Crystal Frasier rather than a freelancer.


wraithstrike wrote:


I found the stat block online. There is a -4 penalty to her attacks, so she is taking the penalties as if she/he is using a one handed weapon in each hand.

You are correct of course, I was just looking at that error myself. However I cannot figure out the math for the statblock.

Attack Bonus:

  • +15 BAB
  • +1 STR
  • +1 from weapon enhancement
  • +3 from Weapon Training
  • +2 from Weapon Focus and Greater Focus
For a total attack bonus of (+22/+17/+12). With the feats "Two-Weapon Fighting" & "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" a -4 penalty is applied so it becomes (+18/+13/+8) & (+18/+13).
However The stat block shows (+16/+11/+6) & (+16/+11). Where the -2 penalty is coming from is anyone's guess.

Damage Bonus:

  • +1 from STR
  • +1 from weapon enhancement
  • +3 from Weapon Training
  • +2 from Weapon Specialization
That's a total of +7 for both.
However the stat block shows +5 for one, and +4 for the other.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Considering they let a Kasatha do it in an AP without any sort of special ability, I'd say that's more than enough justification that it should work.

Especially considering the AP volume in question was written by Crystal Frasier rather than a freelancer.

I agree.


My conclusion is this:

Kasathas can wield 2 Two-Handed Weapons. When applying penalties for two-weapon fighting:

  • the weapon that is held with a primary hand and an off-hand is treated as a weapon held with a primary hand
  • the weapon that is held with two off-hands is treated as a weapon held with an off-hand.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Fraiser.


Caleb Garofalo wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


I found the stat block online. There is a -4 penalty to her attacks, so she is taking the penalties as if she/he is using a one handed weapon in each hand.

You are correct of course, I was just looking at that error myself. However I cannot figure out the math for the statblock.

** spoiler omitted **For a total attack bonus of (+22/+17/+12). With the feats "Two-Weapon Fighting" & "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" a -4 penalty is applied so it becomes (+18/+13/+8) & (+18/+13).
However The stat block shows (+16/+11/+6) & (+16/+11). Where the -2 penalty is coming from is anyone's guess.

** spoiler omitted **That's a total of +7 for both.
However the stat block shows +5 for one, and +4 for the other.

The math is off. I could not get the damage bonus to match up either

For the attack bonus I got.

15 BAB
+3 weapon training
+1 weapon
I had forgotten to account for other bonuses to attack, which is how I got the -4 penalty.

As for Ms.Fraiser doing it she is not a member of the rules team, and as we see errors were still made. Other NPC's made by Official Paizo team members have errors that get past editing.

I don't know if you are the player or GM. If you are the GM, and you want it to work I say go with it. If you are a player I want you to be aware of possible objections.


Caleb Garofalo wrote:

That's a total of +7 for both.

However the stat block shows +5 for one, and +4 for the other.

The total should be +7 for one, and +6 for the other (off-hand attacks receive only 1/2x STR modifier bringing the bonus from STR from 1 to 0).

Caleb Garofalo wrote:

My conclusion is this:

Kasathas can wield 2 Two-Handed Weapons. When applying penalties for two-weapon fighting:

  • the weapon that is held with a primary hand and an off-hand is treated as a weapon held with a primary hand
  • the weapon that is held with two off-hands is treated as a weapon held with an off-hand.

** spoiler omitted **

To be clear that's applying penalties for two-weapon fighting to both attack and damage rolls. This raises the question what the penalty is exactly for the off-hand damage rolls.

It is unclear whether that penalty is 1/2x STR modifier or 3/4x STR modifier. What is clear however is that the 1&1/2x STR modifier for wielding a weapon two-handed is not applied to the off-hand without penalty.*
EVIDENCE:
According to the stat block as shown above there is a difference between each weapon's damage modifier. One is treated as normal, while the other is reduced by one. This illustrates that a penalty to the off-hand weapon is applied. Normally when two-weapon fighting the off-hand damage rolls receive 1/2x STR modifier. You get 1&1/2 STR modifier on two-weapon attacks. So 1/2 of 1&1/2 is 3/4. Since 1&1/2 of 2 is the same as 3/4 of 2 when rounded down, we can not be clear which penalty the stat block is using.

*The Feat "Double Slice" removes the 1/2x STR modifier penalty, but it remains unclear whether or not you receive the 1&1/2 STR modifier bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the record.

There is no off hand rules for the use of a Two Handed Weapon. A character only ever has one main hand.

One handing the weapons because of feats or class abilities will not change the fact that one is wielding a Two Handed weapon, so wielding larger ones or one normal sized one in each hand would still not be possible. The exceptions are those abilities that specifically states the possibility.

Now, assuming your GM allows for the use of multiple Two Handed Weapons, there is a couple of considerations for this combination. First, it is likely going to carry an additional -2 penalty for using Two Handed weapons with TWF. (regardless on how many is used) This would be a total of -6/-6 off the normal BAB. This would be a houserule.

I would think that the Kasatha would need to use Multiweapon Fighting automatically instead of TWF. (So the character would not be able to get the improved TWF feats) This is per the Bestiary.

One would still get 1.0 (Main) and .5 (Off) str bonus on weapon damage when using TWF/MWF. This is standard for using two weapons in this manner.

I think the whole advantage of a four armed character is to be able to effect more attacks, using four weapons instead of two. My overall view is that there is no advantage to using two Two Handed Weapons when damage output would be better with four weapons.


thaX wrote:

For the record.

There is no off hand rules for the use of a Two Handed Weapon. A character only ever has one main hand.

Where do you see a rule that states this? A two-handed weapon is only ever called a two-handed weapon and I cannot find a place where it states that it can only be wielded through the use of a primary hand.

As far as I understand the use of a two-handed weapon only requires two hands and there is no verbage about requiring a primary hand.


Quote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.


Helpful Harry wrote:
Quote:
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Thank you for the quote Helpful Harry, you lived up to your name haha. Where is this from, CRB?

So as you can see thaX a primary hand is not required.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is off hand use for the other two designations, but it is not present on the Two Handed entry. The two handed use of a light weapon will not confer any benefit, while two handed use of one handed weapons will infer the 1.5 str mod bonus.

The entry assumes a bepedal human like creature (which is all that is available in the Core Rulebook) and the entry is shortened to "both hands."

I have went through discussions like this in other threads, so I will say that there are some that disagree. It is a ruling that uses the "It does not say that I can not" clause.


Caleb Garofalo wrote:
Helpful Harry wrote:
Quote:
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Thank you for the quote Helpful Harry, you lived up to your name haha. Where is this from, CRB?

So as you can see thaX a primary hand is not required.

Equipment section in the CRB.

Edit: Just to note, I believe it does say a primary hand is required. In the light weapon and one-handed weapon section it gives the rules for using the weapon in either your primary or off-hand. In the two-handed weapon section it says two hands are required. I believe this refers to the primary and off-hand thus making it a rule that two-handed weapons require a primary hand. Other people, obviously, disagree.


thaX wrote:

There is off hand use for the other two designations, but it is not present on the Two Handed entry. The two handed use of a light weapon will not confer any benefit, while two handed use of one handed weapons will infer the 1.5 str mod bonus.

The entry assumes a bepedal human like creature (which is all that is available in the Core Rulebook) and the entry is shortened to "both hands."

I have went through discussions like this in other threads, so I will say that there are some that disagree. It is a ruling that uses the "It does not say that I can not" clause.

With the NPC entry I'm no longer worried about whether or wielding 2 two-handed weapons is legal. The only thing left unclear is the bonus to attack being 1&1/2 or 3/4 x strength modifier.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Caleb Garofalo wrote:
With the NPC entry I'm no longer worried about whether or wielding 2 two-handed weapons is legal. The only thing left unclear is the bonus to attack being 1&1/2 or 3/4 x strength modifier.

For melee;

Weapon in one primary hand: 1x strength bonus
Weapon in one off hand: 0.5x strength bonus
Weapon in two hands: 1.5x strength bonus

"Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon."

Consider the Upasunda Asura. It uses a longsword in its primary hand (hence iterative attacks) and a spear in two off-hands (hence 1.5x strength bonus to damage).


CBDunkerson wrote:

For melee;

Weapon in one primary hand: 1x strength bonus
Weapon in one off hand: 0.5x strength bonus
Weapon in two hands: 1.5x strength bonusp

I understand that, I listed those things, I even listed them when asking the question. The question is whether or not the bonus for two handed weapon as well as the penalty for off-hands (which we know do apply).

CBDunkerson wrote:
Consider the Upasunda Asura. It uses a longsword in its primary hand (hence iterative attacks) and a spear in two off-hands (hence 1.5x strength bonus to damage).

You have found us the answer. The monster you linked has a special ability called, "Multiweapon Mastery" which makes it so the upasunda takes no penalties when fighting with multiple weapons. So with the penalty for fighting with an off-hand weapon removed we can see exactly which bonus it receives, which is a 1&1/2 STR bonus to the two-handed spear she is wielding with her off hands.

So we can say, assuming bestiary and NPC entries are valid forms of evidence, that the attack bonuses of 0.5x str mod from off-hand, and 1.5x str mod from two-handed stack for a total of .75x str modifier.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Can a Kasatha take the "Two-Weapon Fighting" feat chain?
Yes.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Fraiser shows a Kasatha with the "Two-Weapon Fighting" and "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" feats.

Can a Kasatha wield 2 two-handed melee weapons?
Yes.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Fraiser shows a Kasatha wielding 2 chainsaws.

What do the bonuses and penalties to attack and damage rolls look like for this?
When applying penalties to attack and damage from two-weapon fighting:


  • The weapon that is held with a primary hand and an off-hand is treated as a weapon held with a primary hand.
  • The weapon that is held with two off-hands is treated as a weapon held with an off-hand.

The bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon is applied to both weapons.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Fraiser shows a Kasatha receiving the penalties form two-weapon fighting in this manner. However since this entry isn't conclusive on whether or not the bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon is applied to the off-hand weapon, we turn to another example. The monster statblock for the Asura, Upasunda from Bestiary 3 shows the creature wielding a two-handed weapon with it's off hands and receiving the bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon.

Thank you all for your help. This would probably be a good FAQ question but I'm not sure how that feature works.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just remember to check with your GM to see if he agrees with the ruling you have determined.

Bestiary entries and monster stat blocks sometimes go beyond what can be done by a character, using either Monster only abilities or a really broken GM fiat. Remember that the Chainsaws are powered and likely have a lot of their umph from the chains rather than the monster slamming them into someone.

I don't see anyway for a character to get above 1.5 str mod bonus using these weapons (that is, getting 1.5 for both weapons instead of the TWF 1.0 and .5), TWF and MWF is specific in this.


thaX wrote:
I don't see anyway for a character to get above 1.5 str mod bonus using these weapons (that is, getting 1.5 for both weapons instead of the TWF 1.0 and .5)

As stated in the conclusion they don't. The first weapon gets 1.5x str mod on damage from being two-handed. The second weapon gets 0.75x str mod on damage from being two-handed and being an off-hand weapon (1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75). To be clear this is not a guess, this is gathered from the evidence listed above.

And don't forget the feat "Double Slice" which removes the 0.5x str mod on damage rolls from being off-hand. Resulting in just the 1.5 from two-handed.


Some people have said that things are going to be unsure until Paizo releases an official errata or FAQ. I would like to ease your minds with this fact:

The Asura, Upasunda from Bestiary 3 originally did not add the 1.5x str mod bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon to the spear it is holding in two of it's off-hands. The have published an official errata that changed it so it does add the 1.5x str mod bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon to the spear it is holding in two of it's off-hands.


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To clarify things further.

Can a Kasatha take the "Two-Weapon Fighting" feat chain?
Yes.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier shows a Kasatha with the "Two-Weapon Fighting" and "Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" feats.

Can a Kasatha wield 2 two-handed melee weapons?
Yes.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the *Iron God's* first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier shows a Kasatha wielding 2 chainsaws.

What do the bonuses and penalties to attack and damage rolls look like for this?
When applying penalties to attack and damage from two-weapon fighting:

  • The weapon that is held with a primary hand and an off-hand is treated as a weapon held with a primary hand.
  • The weapon that is held with two off-hands is treated as a weapon held with an off-hand.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier shows a Kasatha receiving the penalties to attack and damage rolls from two-weapon fighting in this manner.

The bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon (1.5x STR mod) is applied to both weapons, and stacks with the penalty for attacking with an off-hand weapon (0.5x STR mod). Thus:

  • The weapon that is held with a primary hand and an off-hand receives 1.5x STR mod bonus to damage rolls.
  • The weapon that is held with two off-hands receives 0.75x STR mod bonus to damage rolls.

SOURCE:
The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier isn't conclusive on whether or not the bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon is applied to the off-hand weapon or not (0.5 x 1 is the same result as 0.75 x 1 when rounded down), either could be valid. So we turn to another example. The monster statblock for the Asura, Upasunda from Bestiary 3 shows the creature wielding a two-handed weapon with it's off hands and receiving the bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon. Note that it's unique version of the "Multiweapon Mastery" special quality which states, "An upasunda takes no penalties when fighting with multiple weapons," does not having bearing on the two-handed weapon bonus question since it is a bonus and not a penalty; it does mean however that the upasunda cannot be used to answer the first two questions or what the attack penalties look like for Kasathas. The Asura, Upasunda entry is of note because it was errated to reflect these rules (previously the stat block showed it receiving only STR mod bonus to damage rolls, and it was changed to be 1.5x STR mod bonus).


Caleb Garofalo wrote:

  • The weapon that is held with two off-hands receives 0.75x STR mod bonus to damage rolls.

Small mistake. The word "bonus" should be "penalty". I bolded it in the quote.

Liberty's Edge

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I don't see where you are getting, "two off-hands receives 0.75x STR mod bonus to damage rolls".

Again, the Upasunda wields a spear in two off-hands. It has a Strength of 22, which yields a +6 bonus. However, with the spear it gets a +9 damage bonus.

6 str bonus * 1.5 two-handed modifier = 9 damage bonus total

Ergo, this weapon wielded in two off-hands is getting 1.5x Str damage bonus. Not 0.75x. Exactly the same as a two-handed weapon wielded in a primary and off-hand... and exactly as the rules are written (i.e. with no mention of the 'type' of hands involved impacting the damage bonus for two-handed weapons).


I think you mistook that I was using the Upasunda to prove anything other than the two-handed weapon bonus. As written in the SOURCE sections of the post:

CBDunkerson wrote:
I don't see where you are getting, "two off-hands receives 0.75x STR mod bonus to damage rolls".

"The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier shows a Kasatha receiving the penalties to attack and damage rolls from two-weapon fighting in this manner."

CBDunkerson wrote:
Again, the Upasunda wields a spear in two off-hands...Ergo, this weapon wielded in two off-hands is getting 1.5x Str damage bonus....Exactly the same as a two-handed weapon wielded in a primary and off-hand...(i.e. with no mention of the 'type' of hands involved impacting the damage bonus for two-handed weapons).

"The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier isn't conclusive on whether or not the bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon is applied to the off-hand weapon or not (0.5 x 1 is the same result as 0.75 x 1 when rounded down), either could be valid. So we turn to another example. The monster statblock for the Asura, Upasunda from Bestiary 3 shows the creature wielding a two-handed weapon with it's off hands and receiving the bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon."

The bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon and for two-weapon fighting combine for a total of 0.75x STR mod penalty on damage rolls.

You can always take the feat "Double Slice" and remove the two-weapon fighting penalty on damage rolls, leaving you with just the 1.5x STR mod bonus on damage rolls for wielding a two-handed weapon.


The issue is being brought up that the 1.5x STR mod bonus and 0.5x STR mod penalty equal 1 not 0.75. Two rules have been cited as evidence:

CRB p. 12 wrote:
When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
CRB p. 179 wrote:
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

My math was {0.5 x 1.5} = 0.75

Math using these rules is {0.5 + (1.5 - 1)} = 1

The question is this: Do these multiplication rules apply to combining the penalty from two-weapon fighting and bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon.

My thought is that we are not multiplying a roll or damage. We are applying more than one multiplier to a ability modifier then later using that to determine damage.

Which do you think it is?


Either way is a house rule so really it's up to your GM.

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