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There's still ways to pressure someone into accepting the serum (or other effects), but I digress. The point I was making got totally derailed.
The serum can still be abused as a tool by certain societies that perceive one sex as superior and have a profound effect on matriarchal/patriarchal cultures and the like.
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I know thatDo you? Because there's nothing in the world today even remotely comparable to what either of these serums can do. Yet you seem incredibly convinced that you know exactly how they effect people.
That seems a bit odd.
Hold on a minute here, let's quote the whole thing I said starting with those words, shall we?
I know that, being very comfortable in my body, trying to adapt to one that was radically different, especially with different hormones effecting my body and mind differently would be deeply upsetting to me personally, and I'm certainly cisgender.
Given that the statement I made here was in regards to how I personally would feel under a specific circumstance, yeah, I know with a fair degree of certainty how that would effect me personally.
I'm a little shocked you'd claim you know better than me how I would feel.
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The Drow Matron obviously casts Dominate Person on her own baby, if she hasn't already. :)
I really doubt that it would work. To be dominated you need a certain level of setience a baby does not have yet.
As for fertility, I'd think there'd be technology for using DNA from both parents. Hmm...haven't seen any, but haven't read everything either and it's not like much extrapolation has been done in Starfinder into social technology.
They clearly haven't. Or, perhaps they have and decided that it is not really a problem... Who knows...?
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Is it 'let's pretend people said things they didn't' time? Because I don't think you can find that line anywhere in my post.
You responded to me saying I know something specifically about myself with a message that amounted to 'No, you don't. It's impossible to know that.'
How is that not you saying you know things about me better than I do?
My point here is that you seem very certain in regards to how most people would react to certain compounds despite those compounds having absolutely nothing we can compare them to in the first place.
The only thing I was ever certain of is how I, personally, would react.
I hypothesized, based on the closest approximations we have in reality, and general trends in people's behaviors, what the usual feeling would be...but the only thing I ever said I was certain of is how I, personally, would react.
And that's kind of absurd for obvious reasons.
Saying that something like being dosed heavily with a different set of hormones than I was used to, while also having my self-image profoundly f%+*ed with, would profoundly bother me is absurd?
I don't think that's an absurd statement at all.
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As for fertility, I'd think there'd be technology for using DNA from both parents. Hmm...haven't seen any, but haven't read everything either and it's not like much extrapolation has been done in Starfinder into social technology.They clearly haven't. Or, perhaps they have and decided that it is not really a problem... Who knows...?
May be misinterpreting it, the line says your new anatomy is as healthy and functional as your old body's, which I read to be a limiter in place to prevent someone from using a serum to get around a disease track, maiming, or similar. A side effect of which would be that someone who was previously sterile should remain so even if they were sterile due to a surgical procedure that wouldn't work on their current set of plumbing.
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I'm thinking that the hormones and/or chemical compounds would be 'appropriate to the consumer of the product'.
Therefore, no dysphoria, no hang-ups, life is good. Why can't we just accept that at face value and leave it there?
EDIT: Above is for Gender Serum derail.
EDIT2: Back on track, what would folks consider doing with their characters with an *Appearance* changing serum?
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W-...Weydan?
Which I just realized is probably a reference to a certain one-eyed all-father known for walking the land in disguise to learn of mortal workings...
Anyway, I figure Voidcloak probably keeps one or two around for if they decide to change their fur pattern or go for a smoother tail or whatever cosmetic change they want this week. May even be one of the things they keep cheeked, along with a backup of their ship's AP and an emergency credstick.
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I'm thinking that the hormones and/or chemical compounds would be 'appropriate to the consumer of the product'.
Although they are called serums they clearly are magical potions and not hormones and chemical compounds.
Therefore, no dysphoria, no hang-ups, life is good. Why can't we just accept that at face value and leave it there?
EDIT: Above is for Gender Serum derail.
EDIT2: Back on track, what would folks consider doing with their characters with an *Appearance* changing serum?
A character concept of mine is an icon themed envoy who changed appeareance and gender like others change their hair color and style, not to disguise themself but just for the fun of it.
The most common use of the appearance serum a vain character would be to use it to remove scars and deformities.
My current PC will be making use of the appearance and the sex shifting serum.
They are a Solarian that believes the form is transitory. They also don't wish to be identified, for they do their good acts for the good that they do, and seek no special treatment from being recognized. Thus, every so often, they will change their sex and appearance.
One day a teenage girl might defeat a threat on Albasus IV, the next an older man may destroy a monster on Absolom Station, then a twenty something young woman might crush an enemy attacking Gallus V... They may all be the same person... They may not be.
The goal is the same... There are heroes out there, bringing light to where darkness reins.
You know that even with the combination of both serums you will still be recognizable as yourself. You need a successfull disguise check to alter your features so far that you become unrecognizable. So your character really needs disguise as a class skill with as many ranks as possible...
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I responded to the general statements you've been making all thread. I quoted that specific piece for emphasis.
The only thing I said that you quoted was entirely about me, and me alone. Your intent may have been to respond to other statements, but that isn't what you did.
I am not a mind reader and responded to what you actually said, which was to quote something I said exclusively about myself and claim I couldn't know that.
Alternatively, I suppose you could have quoted the only absolute statement I made out of context in order to make it seem like I was saying things I hadn't. Huh. Thinking about it, that's not much better.
I'm not really thinking of a third way an out of context three word quote from the beginning of a sentence not directly involving how people in general would react to the Serum got to be the line you quoted to respond to my argument as a whole.
If you have an alternate explanation, and make clear what you actually mean, I'd be pleased to hear it and continue this conversation in a convivial fashion. Barring that, your particular assertions and/or the method you have used to make them have been rather high-handed and more than a bit insulting and I'm not super inclined to have an actual debate with you on that particular issue.
Not sure why that's making you so disgruntled. The fact is that the chemical compound is fairly vaguely described and obviously very much beyond any form of modern science. Given that, asserting a bunch of side effects that aren't explicitly laid out as inevitable seems like a bit of a stretch.
See, this I disagree with but would not become 'disgruntled' arguing against. My objection was to you either:
A. Saying you know better than I do how I would react to something.
or
B. Quoting something out of context to imply that I made far more definitive statements than I did regarding how people might react to the Serum of Sex Change.
Neither is appropriate.
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Everyone here should remember that there are actual real-world transgender gamers on this board too, and behoove us all to post responsibly and considerately when discussing transgender-related topics about the game.
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Forcing children to willingly do things is colloquially called parenting.
Not to take your comment out of context, but as a parallel, real world parents and doctors are now largely on the side of not attempting to surgically correct infants with genital abnormalities unless not doing so carries a substantial risk of health problems. Rather, they believe that the child should be able to make their own informed decisions when old enough to decide for themselves.
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About the serum of appearance change (not sex shift), it lacks some fine control. Apparently you can't even attempt a disguise check to look like someone else. I'm not totally sure that once you've changed your appearance entirely you could use it again to get back to your original look. Anyone else think this could cause some angst?
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On the matter of the other serum and beauty, note that it *doesn't* augment ones Charisma. If you use it to make yourself into the popular image of Perfect Beauty. . . the result is not exactly going to be all that. At best you simply gain the broad traits, in a lesser imperfect way; at worst, you probably look kind of creepy and offputting, like someone who had too much plastic surgery.
This is setting aside, natch, that there probably won't be just one standard of beauty. I mean, they'll be certain common factor, like symmetry, clear skin, and various curves and proportions that match the Golden Ratio. Beyond the most basic stuff, though, its going to wildly vary from planet to planet, from distinct cultures within each planet, to say nothing of species to species.
Charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one.
Charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one.
Yeah, I'd likely hold to this and go with the GM's favourite tool (+2/-2) for how appearance matters. A drow female might get a +2 intimidating a drow male due to that cultural baggage while talking to Ratzis might have -2 if you don't have the right fur colouration.
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Charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one.On the matter of the other serum and beauty, note that it *doesn't* augment ones Charisma. If you use it to make yourself into the popular image of Perfect Beauty. . . the result is not exactly going to be all that. At best you simply gain the broad traits, in a lesser imperfect way; at worst, you probably look kind of creepy and offputting, like someone who had too much plastic surgery.
This is setting aside, natch, that there probably won't be just one standard of beauty. I mean, they'll be certain common factor, like symmetry, clear skin, and various curves and proportions that match the Golden Ratio. Beyond the most basic stuff, though, its going to wildly vary from planet to planet, from distinct cultures within each planet, to say nothing of species to species.
. . .yes? What, exactly, does that change about my statement? Is a Charisma 10 individual serum-shifted into the perfection of ( say ) human appearance somehow not going to still be Charisma 10? And would this not still manifest, in game, as either not having that perfect compelling symmetry after all, or coming off as creepy and plastic, or something along those lines?
Its not like Starfinder has a separate Appearance stat for physical beauty. The only thing measuring how attractive and compelling you are is Charisma.
You could be the most beautiful creature in the universe... and have an utterly dull, mundane, forgettable personality, or even be downright boorish and/or brutish in personality if your Cha is <10. Appearance shouldn't have much of an effect on Cha, if any really. Personality makes or breaks someone's charisma.
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What I really want to know is following:
1. Does both serums work on Androids?
2. Does the serums change the DNA? (Important for DNA based security systems)
3. Does the serum of sex shift allow partial transformations?
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I guess this is also part of why they changed the Lashunta.
If they didn't, then a 200 credit serum would allow you to easily swap your stats around.
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Mechanics notes, though I didn't double check...
Serum of Sex Change is instantaneous. Drink & done.
(Add: Extrapolating off of previously expressed views of Paizo, there'd be no personal negative ramifications from usage of this and likely no social ones other than in detestable cultures. So no dysphoria nor mainstream prejudice, just prejudice from some repressed or regressive cultures.)
Serum of Appearance Change is permanent. This means it's likely dispellable, and detectable by Detect Magic. Uncertain what it means to drink a second one because the first one would remain active too. Funnily enough, one could have several layers, something an elite spy might be able to make use of.
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Back to the original question which was about cultural implications living in a universe where you can appear however you want not about gender identity.
It's worth reading Pandora's Star by Peter F Hamilton. It details a world where you can undergo a rejuvenation process to appear at any age you desire, and undergo surgery to effectively appear however you want just like the serum. At the same time you can also be reborn into a body back to the last time you memories were downloaded into a server. They call that second life, or third life.
A couple of outcomes are described
- The population is split into the jaded middle class that can afford the procedures and the poorer classes for who it would represent a significant expenditure. Not dissimilar to modern society.
- Experience and novelty is far more important where people can all look classically beautiful. What a person does and how many times they've done it is more important than what they look like, doing it.
- Natural looks gain a value in and of themselves, as opposed to artificially created looks, even if the difference isn't obvious at first glance.
75 credits may represent a much larger proportion of a persons disposable income than the 1 credit per day figure would suggest. After all how much of your income goes on food as opposed to all the other things in your life you spend money on. I can definitely imagine cultures where it would be frowned upon to put your superficial appearance ahead of other spending priorities.
Just a few thoughts
What I really want to know is following:
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3. Does the serum of sex shift allow partial transformations?
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3. Yes. It says any characteristics. Thus yes.
So women with male primary genitals and men with female primary genitals will be possible?
Back to the original question which was about cultural implications living in a universe where you can appear however you want not about gender identity.
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- Natural looks gain a value in and of themselves, as opposed to artificially created looks, even if the difference isn't obvious at first glance.
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This is quite common in societies in which it is possible to create the perfect look. Often the extremely rich are the ones who forgo such technics and are proud that their look might not be 100% perfect but is completely natural.
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Well, yes. I agree. I am saying the opposite: that Charisma effects Appearance.
Well, you're both right. Appearance is a physical attribute and charisma is a mental stat. So logically, charisma shouldn't affect appearance.
But the book flatly states that it does:
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
So a serum of appearance change either 1) doesn't change how attractive you are, or 2) both increases your attractiveness while decreasing one or any of the other aspects of charisma in order to keep the stat the same.
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Serum of Appearance Change is permanent. This means it's likely dispellable, and detectable by Detect Magic. Uncertain what it means to drink a second one because the first one would remain active too. Funnily enough, one could have several layers, something an elite spy might be able to make use of.
"Upon drinking this elixer, your coloration and the general form of your features instantly and permanently changes."
The SoAC does not go on to further emphasize it is impossible to dispel the way the SoSS does, so this is ambiguous from a mechanical perspective. "Instantly and permanently" is an utterly nonsensical phrase from a strictly mechanical perspective, since those are conflicting durations, so this shouldn't be read as a purely mechanical statement. I suspect the duration of this is most likely intended to be Instantaneous, and the "permanent" is to emphasize that this is not some cosmetic change that will go away in a few days, weeks, or months the way hair dye might.
This isn't the only possible reading by any means, but I think it is consistent with the intent behind the SoSS. Though if that is in fact the intent, perhaps it would have been clearer if they'd simply combined them into a single item.
Presumably it doesn't prevent natural aging, it just resets the clock to whatever form you take.
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Good thoughts, Sword, I'll add some maybes:
-Appearances become less important:
There will be primal wiring within us, but our social conditioning would likely overshadow that (and real life studies support this). Given most citizens are regularly exposed to a medley of alien races, some not even mammalian, learning to judge somebody by their character rather than their veneer would (I'd suspect & hope) become more commonplace, perhaps even required to navigate in a pluralistic society with no clear majority.
Heck, a game based around this social system may not even include a stat for comeliness...
I think interspecies love would be the new taboo for those subcultures inclined to discriminate or sow division. But in turn, there would be xenophiles who would use the serum to get as close to their beloved race as possible (which might lead to some odd, intentional skin conditions.)
-Appearances become more important:
In a shallow way, appearances might become like fashion. The hot fad might be "insert physical description here" today. If that should catch on with the plebes (some of whom might have been saving up) then presto, there's a new body or whatever in fashion. The most elite (read: rich, pretentious, & exclusive) may make a point of being able to afford switching at will. Like IRL's ridiculously impractical world of fashion, there could be fashion shows with some of the most extreme body types, combos thereof, & rare conditions imaginable.
If that such fashion comes to be then certain aliens would be excluded as well, unable to match trends due to anatomical/genetic differences. This may lead to an alien counterculture, i.e. Vesk grunge & Shirren beatniks, who start their own looks.
-The issue will fade into the background:
IRL, as plastic surgery became normalized so did its acceptance to where many times it goes unnoticed or un-noted. There will be those constantly going in for changes and those that judge them, but to the common person a change or two will be a nonissue, even as some prefer purely natural bodies or even bodies others find unattractive. The whole gamut of opinions we have IRL about both fashion & plastic surgery will arise, just with the addition that it's easier and speedier to do in SF and alien bodies & cultures will have their own subcultures to add in. With no clear majority species, I doubt there would be a dominant cultural view on appearance changes.
-We need more info:
Who sets the trends in Golarian space? There are icons, sure, but is it socially acceptable to emulate them or is individuality prized more? How easily do Shirren fall prey to trendy groupthink only to hyper-react in objection to it? Do Ysoki prefer mates more by scent and is that subject to the serum? What is the range of appearances for androids and does appearance factor in their culture at all? Can Vesks add scars? Given we have conspiratorial corporations, what steps have they taken to steer the populace toward being trend-followers? What role does the media play in promoting or downplaying the importance of appearances? How widespread does media reach and how many options are there and who controls them?
Can open, worms everywhere...
ETA: Totally forgot about the ramification of cyberware & bioaugmentation. With casual appearances so readily changed, mechanical & bio-impossible trends could arise, even if just as in-group markers for various subcultures.
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Changing someone's brain may be verboten for a commercial product.
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Can Vesks add scars?...
Probably considered like lying about your military record.
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Since souls stay the same, soul identification system.
Your ID is made of your Soul Number
Should be easy since god runs the market.
so you're suggesting a (puts on sunglasses) soul-cial security system?
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Good thoughts, Sword, I'll add some maybes:
If that such fashion comes to be then certain aliens would be excluded as well, unable to match trends due to anatomical/genetic differences. This may lead to an alien counterculture, i.e. Vesk grunge & Shirren beatniks, who start their own looks.
I expect that with an unlimited number of worlds part of the fun of world building will be deciding which cultures feel differently about all these things. Part of the joy of GMing in Starfinder for me are the ways I can make different worlds stand out as unique culturally, rather than just environmentally. I wont be using the majority of alien races as I plan on running Starfinder in the Dark Heresy, 40k universe.
About the serum of appearance change (not sex shift), it lacks some fine control. Apparently you can't even attempt a disguise check to look like someone else. I'm not totally sure that once you've changed your appearance entirely you could use it again to get back to your original look. Anyone else think this could cause some angst?
The serum of appearance change being permanent rather than instantaneous means my thoughts about being unable to get back to your original look were groundless. Never mind them.
...why IS appearance permanent and sex shift instant? The latter seems like the more dramatic one for the magic to do.
...why IS appearance permanent and sex shift instant? The latter seems like the more dramatic one for the magic to do.
Simple: permanent can be dispelled, instant not. So it is possible to lift a disguise made with the serum of appearance change by casting dispel magic, but it is not possible to revert one back to their original gender by casting dispel magic. You cannot drink the serum of appearance change to revrt back to your original appearance, but you can drink the serum of sex shift to revert back to you original gender.
It also has a historical reason: remember the girdle of opposite gender from AD&D. The only way to end this curse was a wish and it was only successfull in 50% of all cases (and it could even backfire and make you sexless).
Oh no, I understand the mechanical differences. I'm just wondering WHY those mechanical differences exist with two rather similar potions.
The Serum of Sex Shift even explicitly says that it cannot be dispelled.