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grapple, grab, and constrict. wow confusing me


Rules Questions


ok so i am making a summoner with a serpentine eidolon.

at lvl 3 i got a new ability that is just confusing me.

so i have these evolutions on my eidolon.
1) bite x2 for 1.5 str damage
2) climb
3) constrict on the bite attack (confusing me)
4) grab on the bite attack
5) reach on the bite
6) tail
7) tail slap

ok so this is how i see it if im wrong please feel free to guide me in the right direction.

the eidolon attacks at range of 10 ft. with its bite. for arguments sake we say it hits. he makes a free grapple cmb check. again sucessful. now constrict hits for his bite damage.

end of round.

target lives does what ever but does not escape.

i make another cmb grapple check. if successfull i do constrict damage and bite damage. [then i can make a cmb to pull the targer 5' closer.] [was incorrect moves automatacly if space allows]

end of round.

target lives does what ever but does not escape.

i make a cmb grapple check to maintain grapple with bite. apply bite damage and constrict damage. make another cmb check to graple with body. when successfull release bite. future cmb grapple checks with body apply constrict damage.

does that sound correct?


When you grapple an opponent with reach, they are automatically moved to be adjacent to you.

Grapple wrote:
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).


ok thanks.
about the rest am i reading it correctly?


I don't think constrict should be "on" the bite attack. Though, it might deal damage equal to it's bite damage when using it's constrict.

In any event, when you successfully make a grapple combat maneuver (after the initial) you can move, pin, damage, or tie up. If you choose to damage you can use any non-two handed weapon to automatically cause damage to the grappled creature this, could be the bite.

The way constrict works normally, you also deal you constrict damage whenever you make a successful grapple check. So, you could effectively deal your bite damage twice with every successful grapple check.

If you make a grapple check, you do not have the action economy to make a pull check also. And successfully grappling a creature moves the creature adjacent to you (except in cases where it specifies it doesn't) so you wouldn't need to.


Take a look at these flow charts to help you understand how grapple works:
Chart 1
Chart 2

Silver Crusade

Constrict in the bite attack is like munch munch xD

Im not sure. I rule that grappling end your others attacks. But other gms say it diferent.

Then if bite hit (and damage) and grapple is suscefull (and constrict damage) then your foe will be adjacent and can do the tail slap.

If you start the round in grapple its diferent. Then you do a grapple check (+5 if you are dominating the grab) and suscess will do 2x bite.

Alternative can free the grapple start of your turn, ans start full round again


Mondragon wrote:

Constrict in the bite attack is like munch munch xD

Im not sure. I rule that grappling end your others attacks. But other gms say it diferent.

Then if bite hit (and damage) and grapple is suscefull (and constrict damage) then your foe will be adjacent and can do the tail slap.

If you start the round in grapple its diferent. Then you do a grapple check (+5 if you are dominating the grab) and suscess will do 2x bite.

Alternative can free the grapple start of your turn, ans start full round again

Better off just pinning your opponent and letting a teammate coup-de-grace.


ok so the constrict in this case only works on the bite attack?
i cant release grapple then regrapple in the same round with the tail/body and still apply constrict damage?

Evolution: grab (bite) An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.

Evolution: constrict (bite) An eidolon gains powerful muscles that allow it to crush those it grapples. Whenever the eidolon successfully grapples a foe using the grab evolution, it deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the serpentine base form.


and one more question.

greater grapple says you can make 2 grapple cmd checks. so i can get 2 bites and 2 constricts on the same target in the same round?


It goes like this:
Make attack (assume success), do bite damage.
Free action make grapple attempt via grab (assume success), do damage listed for constrict- in this case it is bite damage again.

You do constrict damage each time you make a successful grapple check. If you grapple for damage you do bite damage and then constrict (bite) damage again. If you grapple to pin you inflict the pinned condition and do constrict damage.

If you can grapple multiple times per round you can constrict multiple times per round, as long as you succeed.


rabbedrabit wrote:

and one more question.

greater grapple says you can make 2 grapple cmd checks. so i can get 2 bites and 2 constricts on the same target in the same round?

No. So here is how it goes.

Turn 1 - bite, grapple, constrict.
Turn 2 - (enemy does not break free) attempt to maintain grapple, deal constrict damage to them.

Greater grapple gives you two chances to maintain that grapple, but you only get constrict damage once (if you maintain grapple). Unless you need to maintain, it is better off using a free action to release grapple then biting and trying to grapple again.


SorrySleeping wrote:
rabbedrabit wrote:

and one more question.

greater grapple says you can make 2 grapple cmd checks. so i can get 2 bites and 2 constricts on the same target in the same round?

No. So here is how it goes.

Turn 1 - bite, grapple, constrict.
Turn 2 - (enemy does not break free) attempt to maintain grapple, deal constrict damage to them.

Greater grapple gives you two chances to maintain that grapple, but you only get constrict damage once (if you maintain grapple). Unless you need to maintain, it is better off using a free action to release grapple then biting and trying to grapple again.

Mostly right, but...

On turn 2, assuming the enemy didn't break free during their turn - You can attempt to maintain the grapple, assuming you succeed you will deal constrict damage and do one of the four options I mentioned above. Possibly dealing bite damage twice, of course you could also deal tail and constrict (which deals bite damage). Or you could get constrict and pin your enemy.

Also, you deal constrict damage on every successful grapple check, not just once a round. So if you can make multiple grapple checks thanks to Rapid Grappler and Greater Grapple you could deal your constrict damage multiple times a round.

Purpose built grapplers are extremely dangerous, verging on not being fun for others. I have a cavalier character that speced into grappling and if the target is also the target of my challenge, being able to deal challenge damage in this way is incredibly powerful.


SorrySleeping wrote:
rabbedrabit wrote:

and one more question.

greater grapple says you can make 2 grapple cmd checks. so i can get 2 bites and 2 constricts on the same target in the same round?

No. So here is how it goes.

Turn 1 - bite, grapple, constrict.
Turn 2 - (enemy does not break free) attempt to maintain grapple, deal constrict damage to them.

Greater grapple gives you two chances to maintain that grapple, but you only get constrict damage once (if you maintain grapple). Unless you need to maintain, it is better off using a free action to release grapple then biting and trying to grapple again.

When you successfully maintain a grapple you can choose from a list of options.

Damage is one of the available options for maintaining a grapple.

Turn 1: Bite, grapple, constrict
Turn 2: maintain grapple(pin or deal damage), constrict.

Grapple wrote:

Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Damage wrote:
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Constrict deals damage every single time an eidolon with grab makes a successful grapple check. (You are always using grab for the +4 bonus to CMB.)

Constrict wrote:
An eidolon gains powerful muscles that allow it to crush those it grapples. Whenever the eidolon successfully grapples a foe using the grab evolution, it deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution.

This means an eidolon with Greater Grapple and Constrict can effectively deal bite damage x4/round.

Grab wrote:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well


ok thanks all.
now i just have to figure out how im going to get a giant sized snake to be able to move threw town without drawing hate from the city guards and towns folks.

ps yes i took swallow howl and enlarge person so he will be eating giants cant wait.


rabbedrabit wrote:

ok thanks all.

now i just have to figure out how im going to get a giant sized snake to be able to move threw town without drawing hate from the city guards and towns folks.

ps yes i took swallow howl and enlarge person so he will be eating giants cant wait.

Alter Self and an Extend meta-magic rod.


sorry just thought of one more thing.
when rolling a cmb can you crit on a nat 20?


It can, CMB checks are attack rolls.

It's not relevant unless you are maintaining for damage. Constrict is not an attack roll.


Alter Self and an Extend meta-magic rod.

alter self good idea


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

It can, CMB checks are attack rolls.

It's not relevant unless you are maintaining for damage. Constrict is not an attack roll.

no but bite is yes?


rabbedrabit wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

It can, CMB checks are attack rolls.

It's not relevant unless you are maintaining for damage. Constrict is not an attack roll.

no but bite is yes?

On round 1, you bite for damage and roll CMB to grapple (no damage).

On successive rounds inflicting bite damage is an option when making successful grapple checks against an already grappled opponent. This damage can be multiplied by a confirmed crit.


rabbedrabit wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

It can, CMB checks are attack rolls.

It's not relevant unless you are maintaining for damage. Constrict is not an attack roll.

no but bite is yes?

No, he's saying that only the damage granted by the attack allowed by successfully making a grapple check would benefit, if you choose to deal damage rather than pin or tie or move the enemy.

Even then, I'm not sure that's true.

At the very least, you wouldn't threaten on anything but a 20 I think. Since you're not attacking with your weapon you don't get the crit threat range, you're simply getting to deal damage because of the successful grapple check.


Claxon wrote:
At the very least, you wouldn't threaten on anything but a 20 I think. Since you're not attacking with your weapon you don't get the crit threat range, you're simply getting to deal damage because of the successful grapple check.

You do, in fact, use a weapon when using Grab. The grapple check is initiated by the eidolons bite attack. You continue using your bite in subsequent rounds to maintain the grapple.

Combat Maneuvers wrote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

Emphasis mine.

If the eidolon has an Amulet of Mighty Fists, the enhancement bonus adds to its CMB check. If the amulet has the keen property, it modifies the crit range of the eidolon's bite, which in turn modifies the crit range of the CMB roll.


Hello there, I've been following this thread closely because I have a Unchained - Protean Eidolon (Snake Constrictor base).

I didn't realize every time I made a Maintain Grapple I would do the Constrict damage again.

I just wanted to point out to rabbedrabit to keep an eye out on the pre-requisites. You said you were level 3? There are a lot of requisite feats for Greater Grapple including 2 feats and BAB +6. And Swallow Whole isn't available until Level 9.

Of course it is possible that you are retroactively seeking info on an ability you've had for a while and are trying to figure out how to use.


Just one correction. You can't coup de grace on a pin, the enemy must be tied up for that to work.


Grandlounge wrote:
Just one correction. You can't coup de grace on a pin, the enemy must be tied up for that to work.

Correct, I got one step ahead of myself.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Claxon wrote:
At the very least, you wouldn't threaten on anything but a 20 I think. Since you're not attacking with your weapon you don't get the crit threat range, you're simply getting to deal damage because of the successful grapple check.

You do, in fact, use a weapon when using Grab. The grapple check is initiated by the eidolons bite attack. You continue using your bite in subsequent rounds to maintain the grapple.

Combat Maneuvers wrote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

Emphasis mine.

If the eidolon has an Amulet of Mighty Fists, the enhancement bonus adds to its CMB check. If the amulet has the keen property, it modifies the crit range of the eidolon's bite, which in turn modifies the crit range of the CMB roll.

Not really. The grab special ability just says when you successfully make an attack with a natural attack with the grab ability you get a free opportunity to make a grapple check.

Also, combat maneuvers don't have a critical threat range in general. Remember you're making a combat maneuver, not a weapon attack roll. You autosucceed on 20 certainly, but it's questionable what happens afterwards. All combat maneuvers are attack rolls, but there is a difference between weapon attacks and combat maneuver.

It's also really unusual because only Grapple has the opportunity to deal damage as part of a combat maneuver (as far as I'm aware).

BTW, I'm not saying it can't critically hit, I'm just saying it's not as clear as your claiming. It's not even clear if a natural attack with grab counts as being used in the grapple. For instance we know that improved unarmed strike bonuses don't apply to a grapple. Including bonuses to unarmed strike from an Amulet of Mighty Fists.


I'm with Claxon here.

Never crossed my mind the idea of making critical damage with the maneuver. The clunkiness of the rules still haunt us nowadays.

Don't get me wrong, for humanoids works fine most times, but falls when dealing with monsters. Just my opinion tough.

If I am not mistaken a clever monster (or a killer GM) with say... 4 limbs and the grab+constrict can:

- First round

a) Attack, if it hits do attack damage, try a free grapple check, constrict damage if succeeded. And ending the turn or trying to do the same to other targets if they are inside reach.

or

b) Attack, if it hits do attack damage, try a free grapple check, constrict damage if succeeded. Release the victim as a free action, and repeat the process 3 more times. Ending the turn maintaining the grapple with the 4th attack.

Assuming the victim is still alive and the poor guy couldn't break free of the grapple. Why would anyone "waste" a turn with a standard action if it can repeat the rape round again?

I know the first option is more safe and I'm taking a few facts for granted in the second one, but I've been in enough encounters to see that b) is statistically better, because monsters have high STR scores and such.

And yes I've had traumatic experiences with tentacled monsters... nighty night everyone!


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
You do, in fact, use a weapon when using Grab. The grapple check is initiated by the eidolons bite attack. You continue using your bite in subsequent rounds to maintain the grapple.

On a grab you only attack once (the initial bite that grants you the "free" grapple check). If you later want to hold the grapple you do not attack anymore, but instead make maintain grapple checks.

Those "maintain" checks do not deal damage themselves. To deal damage with the maintain checks you must first succeed on the check and then chose to "do damage" as the bonus action.

Neither the "damage" actions or the constrict ability have attack rolls, so they don't have crit chances. They simply "activate" when the maintain maneuver succeeds (and in the "damage" case, you must select it)

William Werminster wrote:
b) Attack, if it hits do attack damage, try a free grapple check, constrict damage if succeeded. Release the victim as a free action, and repeat the process 3 more times. Ending the turn maintaining the grapple with the 4th attack.

Sure, but you'll have to tie the grab evolution to an attack you have several "copies" of, probably growing several limb (arms) and adding claws/pincers to them.

Also, the GM may perfectly limit the amount of releases you can perform since almost nobody will expect the constricts to be instantaneous.


its not a character im currently playing it was one i was building and lvling to see what i can do with it and have an idea on how i want to build the character as it lvls.
these where just questions i had when building the character that would have come up during play that i wanted to get a handle on before play so as not to interupt play to solve if at all possible.

thanks all for the info it was very informative and helpfull.

just a fyi using just the apg the eidolon ended up being huge size only 3 attacks 2 bites and one tail smash. 20' reach on the bite. +45 cmb str,size and feats. pull on the bite attacks. and swallow hole on the bite attack any thing of huge size or smaller with enlarge person cast on the eidolon.


Just so you know, swallow whole is usually a dangerous and bad proposition. You'll cause some minor damage to them, but because Eidolons usually focus on causing damage by using multiple natural attacks and not just a single, it will be less than you could cause. And then the enemy ends up inside of you, where your AC is going to be significantly reduced. So you offer than an easier target to hit, and once they cause damage equal to 10% of your HP they can escape, basically having cut open your stomach.

Swallow whole while sounding cool, is mechanically bad unless your enemy doesn't have the means to deal damage in a grapple (because being swallowed whole is basically just being treated as being grappled).


rabbedrabit wrote:

its not a character im currently playing it was one i was building and lvling to see what i can do with it and have an idea on how i want to build the character as it lvls.

these where just questions i had when building the character that would have come up during play that i wanted to get a handle on before play so as not to interupt play to solve if at all possible.

thanks all for the info it was very informative and helpfull.

just a fyi using just the apg the eidolon ended up being huge size only 3 attacks 2 bites and one tail smash. 20' reach on the bite. +45 cmb str,size and feats. pull on the bite attacks. and swallow hole on the bite attack any thing of huge size or smaller with enlarge person cast on the eidolon.

depends on the weapon the creature has. if its not a small light piercing/slashing they cant attack the inside and have to crawl back out to the mouth.

its not about being a dps character but more of a cc character. there is no restriction on the amount of npc's that can be swallowed howl and all you have to do is pay attention to there weapons otherwise you use reach with grab attacks to keep the npc's in one localized area.


Claxon wrote:
Not really. The grab special ability just says when you successfully make an attack with a natural attack with the grab ability you get a free opportunity to make a grapple check.

I already stated that. The initial grab does not deal damage.

Quote:
Also, combat maneuvers don't have a critical threat range in general. Remember you're making a combat maneuver, not a weapon attack roll. You autosucceed on 20 certainly, but it's questionable what happens afterwards. All combat maneuvers are attack rolls, but there is a difference between weapon attacks and combat maneuver.

Combat maneuvers are made using a weapon. This can be an unarmed strike or, in this specific case, with a natural weapon. Crit range and modifiers are determined by the weapon, as is damage. (Assuming the combat maneuver is dealing damage.)

Quote:
It's also really unusual because only Grapple has the opportunity to deal damage as part of a combat maneuver (as far as I'm aware).

Grapple is the only combat maneuver I know of that deals damage using a weapon or natural attack as part of a successful CMB roll.

Quote:
BTW, I'm not saying it can't critically hit, I'm just saying it's not as clear as your claiming. It's not even clear if a natural attack with grab counts as being used in the grapple. For instance we know that improved unarmed strike bonuses don't apply to a grapple. Including bonuses to unarmed strike from an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Combat Maneuvers wrote:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver

Combat maneuvers are explicitly defined as attack rolls made with weapons. All bonuses are included - this includes enhancement bonuses unless there is RAW somewhere specifically excluding them. This should apply to unarmed attacks as well, since unarmed attacks are considered a weapon.

Spell Combat FAQ wrote:
For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand

Scarab Sages

Some combat maneuvers are explicitly attacks with weapons. Grapple is not one of those.

“FAQ” wrote:

Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?

It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).

The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.

Only disarm, sunder, and trip are made with a weapon unless something about the weapon (grappling special quality) or an ability changes that. You don’t get to add Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes) to a grapple check. You have to take Weapon Focus (Grapple)

“Weapon Focus” wrote:
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Unarmed strike or grapple, because they are different things.

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