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Brawler's Flurry + Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp + Pummeling Charge + Elephant Stomp + Fortuitous + Spiked Destroyer. Help?


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

I need some help double checking stuff here.

Firstly Overrun states "As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square."

That can be replaced by Elephant Stomp, which states "When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent’s space and knocking her prone, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action."

However, with Pummeling Charge, I can use a flurry-of-blows at the end of a charge. Using Brawler's Flurry, I can use the first attack as a trip attack, triggering both Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip. If I have a Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists, there's an additional AoO. Assuming I'm level 11, I still have 4 attacks remaining on my Flurry (3 attacks from BAB, 1 from Two Weapons, 1 from Improved TWF). Combat Reflexes is a prerequisite for Vicious Stomp, so that's already had and I have enough AoOs to apply.

Does this mean I can make a charge, apply an Overrun Combat Maneuver, attack with Elephant Stomp, Flurry, Trip, immediately attack with Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip and Fortuitous, and then use my remaining Flurry attacks for a full 8 attacks after a move, 7 of which are against a downed opponent? Potentially applying Power Attack to all attacks, if I wanted to?

Furthermore, could I still apply Spiked Destroyer which let's me attack with Spiked Armor as a swift action triggered by a successful Overrun Combat Maneuver, to push my total attacks to 9?

All of this assumes of course, I succeed at CMB and attack rolls.


I'm no expert on that collection of abilities, but Pummeling Charge is a full round action and overrun is a different standard action. I don't think you can do both.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

short answer: no.

longer answer: when you use elephant stomp you're not charging. a charge is a special full-round action (which pummeling charge modifies), but it has to be declared against a specific target that you must attack from the first square where you can reach it from... that means you can't overrun your charge target. because your overrun target is not your charge target, if/when you use elephant stomp to stop and attack the overrun target you have interrupted your charge (forfeiting the attack, or attacks, that normally come at the end). Also, an immediate action uses up your next swift action... usually that's on your next turn when you use it to interrupt someone else's action, but here you can't add spiked destroyer to elephant charge because the attack from EC used up the swift action you'd need for it.

iirc, you can combine the rest though: pummeling charge, using brawlers flurry to trip, triggering some AoOs. Without reading spiked destroyer I'm not sure, but you might be able to use that to get an extra attack on your way to your real target (you overrun someone in the way and get a swift spike attack against them, then finish the charge and hit the main target with flurry/AoOs).


Some people believe that the overrun during a charge, is an additional free attack something other than the target of the charge... rather than an action that replaces the attack at the end of the charge.(like bull rush) Despite the existence of the Feat Charge Through which does that excact thing...

Charge Through
You can overrun enemies when charging.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target of your charge.

You should find out how your DM rules on this before attempting it during a game.

Grand Lodge

Thank you for the clarification. Overrun's text was vague, with it simply saying it "can be used as part of a charge."


Try Siegebreaker and Quick Bullrush

Quick bullrush lets you use your first attack in a full attack to bullrush, siegebreaker 2 lets you deal damage when you bullrush or overrun, avoid AOOs, add your armors enhancement bonus, and make a free action overrun whenever you successfully bullrush.

Grand Lodge

toastedamphibian wrote:

Try Siegebreaker and Quick Bullrush

Quick bullrush lets you use your first attack in a full attack to bullrush, siegebreaker 2 lets you deal damage when you bullrush or overrun, avoid AOOs, add your armors enhancement bonus, and make a free action overrun whenever you successfully bullrush.

If it offered Improved Bull Rush at level 1 I'd be all for it, and instead stack it with Spinning Throw, as I already use Ki Throw and Improved Trip. Alas, that's just wishful thinking. The Improved Bull Rush feat tax, on top of losing a feat from multi-classing, is too costly for me.


Not sure what your build is. What Im looking at is fighter 2, brawler 9

Feats (not in order) IUAS, TWF, ITWF, shield focus, guarded charge, IMP bullrush, quick BR, Imp OR, Greater OR, Vicious stomp, combat reflexes, pummeling stlye, pummeling charge

Charge with pummeling style, Bullrush for 2+str+armor enhancement dmg, free overrun for same damage, beat cmd by 5 or more and get 2 AoO. Then finish your full attack with 2 itteratives and 2 off hands vs prone. 6 attacks, not the 8 you where looking for, but the 2 combat manuvers deal damage now, your swift action is still available, and you CMB is alot higher.

Taking a third fighter level later can get armor training and opening up Poised Bearing so you can continue to affect larger foes.

Edit: 7 attacks, including the 3rd AoO from the amulet.


Hurricane Punch instead of quick bull rush. You have to hit twice, and takes a swift, but does not use your first attack. Ir take both, drop the shield feats for PA and Hurricane punch, use hurricane punch at the end of your turn to push them away, or as a second chance to knock prone if your first attempt fails.

Grand Lodge

Actually, let's see what we can do with that at level 13.

Human Level 1-11 as Brawler, 12-13 as Siegebreaker

Traits: Snowstrider, Bred For War

Feats:
1. Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Vicious Stomp
4. None
5. Ki Throw, Pummeling Style
6. None
7. Greater Trip
8. Pummeling Charge
9. Power Attack
10. None
11. Improved Bull Rush, Spinning Throw
12. None
13. Improved Overrun

20 (26) STR
16 Dex
14 Con
7 Int
12 Wis
8 CHA

Gear, using wealth by level table.
Giant's Strength Belt +6
Fortuitous Amulet of Might Blows +4
Brawling Chain Shirt
+1 Buckler

Attack - 13(BAB)+8(STR)+4(AoMF)+2(Brawling)-3(Power Attack, +24

Damage - 1d8+8(STR)+4(AoMF)+2(Brawling)+6(Power Attack), +20

Siegebreaker Damage-
8(STR)+2(Improved Bullrush, Overrun)+1 (Shield Enhancement), +11

CMB -
13(BAB)+8(STR)+4(AomF)+1(Bred For War)-3(Power Attack), +23.

Additional +7 to Trip (Improved Trip, Greater Trip Maneuver Training 3), +4 to Bull Rush (Improved Bull Rush, Maneuver Training 2), +3 to Overrun (Improved Overrun, Maneuver Training 1)

Attack Breakdown
Pummeling Charge -> Flurry
Trip
AoO Vicious Stomp
AoO Greater Trip
AoO Amulet of Mighty Fists
Activate Spinning Throw Swift Action
->Siegebreaker Effect at Double Damage
Trigger Overrun Free Action
->Siegebreaker Effect at Double Damage
Flurry Attack
Flurry Attack
Flurry Attack
Flurry Attack

Assuming everything lands (being generous here), after a move it's 7d8+162, they're prone, and I can reposition them with Spinning Throw.

Now, I have 0 faith in my own numbers or understanding here, can someone tell me where/if I've messed up?


First thing, cant seigebreaker/brawler. Both change weapon mastery.

Grand Lodge

toastedamphibian wrote:
First thing, cant seigebreaker/brawler. Both change weapon mastery.

Understood. That's a paltry -1 To my Bullrush CMB with no other losses. Any other spots?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I played an overrun specialist to level 10 in PFS, and every GM ruler overrun, charge through, elephant stomp, vicious stomp (prone) differently.

No FAQ or Dev comment is know to sort out this, so work with your GM how these work.


Your armor and saves are ridiculously bad and your going to die?

More helpfully, I don't think PA is necessarily worth it. Alot of your attacks are dependent on preceeding attacks hitting.

Maybe take shield focus at 13 and retrain power attack to shielded charge?

The improved ki throw interaction is interesting. Bull rush A (damage) into B. Bull rush B (damage). Overrun A (damage) and B (damage)


Reducing the AoMF to +3 Fortuitous causes a loss of 7 damage, but saves you alot of money. Get a +5 buckler, and still have 12k gold left over. The extra +4 enhancement bonus gets applied 4 times in your damage calculation, so a total increase of 9 (16-7) damage.

Grand Lodge

How does an Overrun work after a Bull Rush anyway? If for example I Bull Rush with Spinning Throw, push them away, and then Overrun, does it close the distance again so I can continue the flurry?


I would imagine you would have to travel with them.

bull rush

Make your bullrush, pushing them back 5ft or more, and moving into the space they leave. Then move into their space, while stomping their face repeatedly.


What do you think of this item list:
+6 Belt of Thunderous Charging (+2 BR/OR, deal damage as 1 size larger when charging)
+1 Brawling Armor
+5 Heavy Shield (+5 dmg on BR/OR)
Pauldrons of the Bull (roll BR twice and take the higher result, always)
+0 Fortuitous AoMF (stop power attacking)
Giant Fist Gauntlet (for 20 rounds per day, free BR with EVERY UNARMED STRIKE)

(Personally I would ditch tripping and focus feats on upping overrun and use that to prone, triggering Vicious stomp and greater overrun but I suppose this is an already existing character)

Edit: reduced armor, added shield.

Grand Lodge

A much more beautiful item list. Mine was thrown together on the spot, mostly to see if I was understanding the rulings correctly. That's a much more useful kit.

As for the already existing character, as per PFS at level 1 I can recreate to my heart's content. Precisely the reason I'm going for all of this.


Ah, society character... no experience with that.

Not sure the belt will be allowable. Printed version is +2 not +6.

Grand Lodge

If using a full-attack action, a flurry, don't I lack movement, and thus am unable to follow up any Bull Rushes?

Or do I retain my 30ft of movement, and simply lack the move action to use it? Which doesn't matter as I use the Bull Rush to move?


Good question.
*shrug*

Bullrush is usually a standard action, overrun is usually a standard action. Both can somehow be done as part of a charge. Both include movement. How does making them free actions impact any of that?

I would assume you can move your speed, or double if you charge. Maybe... but what if they stand up on their turn, and you punch them? Now your bullrushing and overrunning on their turn... can you still go with them?

Anyone know?

Grand Lodge

Sometimes not even on a charge. For example on Brawler's Flurry with Giant Gauntlets I could potentially do:

Attack 1
-Bull Rush, Follow 5 Steps
--Overrun, Move Through 10 Feet
---Trigger Vicious Stomp, Greater Overrun, and Fortuitous
Attack 2
-Bull Rush, Follow 5 Steps
Attack 3
-Bull Rush, Follow 5 Steps
Attack 4
-Bull Rush, Follow 5 Steps
Attack 5

Pushing behind them back 1 space, moving behind, then pushing them forward 3 spaces, essentially pulling them in by 2 squares and setting up a flank from behind.

That's on top of 8 attacks and 5 Siegebreaker Damages, assuming it's legal.


No, wose than that.

You forgot that each of the 3 AoO get a free bullrush, that triggers a free overrun.

Grand Lodge

There isn't enough movement to use all of those however. I also didn't use the Bull Rush from my final attack, as I'd probably want a flanking setup more. There is a potential 6th Rush at the end though, and therefor a 6th Siegebreaker, albeit without being able to follow.

Assuming this is the movement ruling of course.


Ring of the Ram and Maelstrom Shield can be kinda nice for this too.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-the-ram/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/mael strom-shield/

With Maelstrom Shield and Greater Trip, it's nice synergy. Ring of the Ram is just fun. Bull Rush at 30ft range.


Charger regional trait increases speed by 10 when you charge, giving 80 move. Boots od springing and striding can get you another 20. Half orc alternate racial ability gives +10 speed on charging as well.


Oh nvm, Maelstrom Shield isn't a buckler :/


Charger regional trait increases speed by 10 when you charge, giving 80 move. Boots od springing and striding can get you another 20. Half orc alternate racial ability gives +10 speed on charging as well.

More importantly, you will not need speed for all of them. You need 3 sucesses in a row for the whole combo, and alot of them are at reduced BAB. You lucky to get 4 or 5 overruns I reckon, and if you get more it probably means the enemy is weak and probably already dead.

Edit: Regional trait is Linebreaker

Grand Lodge

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Oh nvm, Maelstrom Shield isn't a buckler :/

Brawler specifically says it can make all unarmed attacks even with their hands full. No need for a Buckler.


So technically, you can use a Maelstrom Shield then? It's pretty spiffy for Shield Bash / Greater Trip builds. You can stick 'em with an AO on the way down, and stick 'em with an AO on the way up. And you can get this free trip attempt whether you hit with the Shield Bash or not. It's pretty handy.

Brawler w/ Maelstrom Shield would almost be like Capt America ^_^;

Grand Lodge

If we really want to push Bull Rush, with Exalted BullRush Bull Rush deal 1d4+(STR*1.5) while in Light Armor.


3rd party feat.


Brutally Weighted Giant Fist Gauntlets?


dot

hey toastedamphibian, does that Elemental Master's Handbook have any new Kineticist wild talents in it or is it just spells and feats?

Grand Lodge

toastedamphibian wrote:
3rd party feat.

Whoops, good catch. Seemed too good to be true.


I have no idea why you would think I would know that...

Site search found 2 feats and a magic item that directly mention kineticist, so maybe?

Grand Lodge

toastedamphibian wrote:
Brutally Weighted Giant Fist Gauntlets?

Those are Hand Slot Wondrous Items, not bludgeoning melee weapons. Still allowed to modify?

Grand Lodge

I'm still struggling to find a solid answer on how Full Attacks, Bull Rushes as Free/Swift Actions, Movement, and Overrun work however. If you can't follow at all after a charge, there's no point in the build really.


Tita wrote:
I'm still struggling to find a solid answer on how Full Attacks, Bull Rushes as Free/Swift Actions, Movement, and Overrun work however. If you can't follow at all after a charge, there's no point in the build really.

Okay, without any feats, Combat Maneuver: Overrun can be made as a standard action during your move action or charge action (therefore everything but your swift action in a round) and provokes an attack of opportunity. Your target may choose to avoid you, if desired. If you exceed the target's CMD by 5, the target gets knocked prone.

With Improved Overrun, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity and now your opponent can't avoid you, and you get a +2 to the check.

With the Charge Through feat, you can Overrun during a move or charge action as a free action (no longer a standard action).

You always move with your target when Bull Rushing.

So essentially, if you have two mobs and they're in a line, but you'd like to charge the 2nd target in the line, you can initiate a Charge action (full round action - which does not consume your swift action) and still get your Full Attack and still retain your swift action.

With those Giant Gauntlets that's 20 rounds (which will probably last you all day most days), that makes you super pushy-shovy.

Technically there is no cap amount to how many free actions you can perform in a round, but your GM is probably going to stop you around 3-5 free actions simply because frankly, it's BS to have any more than that. A free action is basically the same amount of time it would take you to shout "Get down!" or "Incoming!". So, if you can't shout "Get Down!" 20 times in 6 seconds (the theoretical time of 1 full round), you shouldn't be able to get 6 free action bull rushes + 6 free action overruns + 80 ft of charge + a full attack + a swift action in 6 seconds. This is a conversation that you should have with your GM, because per RAW, there is no cap to the amount of free actions in a round.

If you want to maximize your extra attacks in a round without abusing the free action economy, get dexterity boosting items/potions so your AO count from Combat Reflexes increases.

Grand Lodge

That's all well and good, the problem I'm seeing is if I take a full-attack action, can I follow them for my full movement worth for bull rushes, or just a single 5 foot step worth of bull rushes.

Meaning I attack, Bull Rush, Follow, Attack, Bull Rush, Follow, Attack, Bull Rush... etc.

Bull Rush let's me follow "as long as I have movement remaining." If I'm full attacking, what's my remaining movement? Do I lost all of my movement, except a 5 foot step, or do I retain my movement but lose my move action, which I don't need as I use Bull Rush to move?


You always move with your target when Bull Rushing. But, you are limited to your total movement speed. For instance, if you have 100ft movement speed, and you charge an opponent 40 ft away, you still have 60ft worth of bull rushing you can do in a round. So lets say your first Bull Rush exceeds the CMD by X, and you move the target 30 ft, and then you Bull Rush again for another 30ft, and you still have additional attacks available. You still get all your remaining attacks, but you can't Bull Rush any more during that round.


Likewise, if you have 100ft movement speed in a round, and you charge a target 95 ft away, you can only bull rush that guy once, even though you still have 8 remaining attacks.


Also likewise, if you charge a target 40 ft away, theoretically, you could bull rush 12 times for 5ft each.


Tita wrote:

That's all well and good, the problem I'm seeing is if I take a full-attack action, can I follow them for my full movement worth for bull rushes, or just a single 5 foot step worth of bull rushes.

Meaning I attack, Bull Rush, Follow, Attack, Bull Rush, Follow, Attack, Bull Rush... etc.

Bull Rush let's me follow "as long as I have movement remaining." If I'm full attacking, what's my remaining movement? Do I lost all of my movement, except a 5 foot step, or do I retain my movement but lose my move action, which I don't need as I use Bull Rush to move?

Does that answer your question?

Edit: If you don't move during a round, and instead do a Full Attack Action, you can theoretically Bull Rush 20 times in a round for 5ft each. This movement does not consume your 5ft step.


You got a rule quote for any of that? I would love some official clarification on the topic of bullrush and overrun movements, especially as they relate to other actions.

Also, do you restrict archers to 3 shots per round? Or a creture with grab and 6 natural attacks to 3 grapple checks?


Why brawler and not UC monk? Leg sweep gets you trip without giving up an attack, and elbow smash gives another (none lethal) attack.

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