Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Fetchling Shadow Walker: Does Darkvision trump the entire class?


Rules Questions


So I was looking over rogue archetypes recently when i came across the Shadow Walker. Immediately it sparked my interest and i'll provide a link for those who wish to see it.

https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/rogue/arch etypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/shadow-walker-rogue-archetype

Fetchling has the ability to get 50% concealment instead of 20% in dim light. Does Darkvision beat this?

Shadow walker itself benefits from Dim Light and darker illuminations. Would the Shadow Walker gain any benefits against a darkvision character or does Darkvision trump the entire archetype making it worthless, as 75% of the monsters we tend to fight have Darkvision. The campaign this character would be going into is Mummy's Mask, a very undead oriented campaign at least at the start, and they all have Darkvision.


Dim light (or natural darkness) does not provide any concealment against a creature with darkvision (see "Ignoring Concealment" here), but Shadow Walker's archetype abilities are not dependent on whether you have concealment or not. Whether you are seen by other creatures or not, it doesn't change the illumination level of the area you're in. The abilities work as normal.


Welcome to trap options.

I suggest you invest in at-will Deeper Darkness to keep the archetype more palatable.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Welcome to trap options.

I suggest you invest in at-will Deeper Darkness to keep the archetype more palatable.

Right?? lol


Being a fetchling is not a class feature of the shadow walker archetype, so no, darkvision does not negate any class features of the shadow walker archetype. ie, the shadow walker still gets init bonuses, SLA's etc associated with the class. The use of the SLA's against creatures with darkvision will be of a more limited use though, as simply casting darkness will have no effect on them. Though deeper darkness, or daylight may have effect on them.

Darkvision does counter the fetchling Shadow Blending racial ability though as it removes the miss chance associated with dim lighting.


Alright. now in using these tactics against the enemy, they'd just negate it....so all in all it is better (Fetchling or not) to use this in a game not so dominated by Darkvision characters WHICH is rare as can be.

Liberty's Edge

I wouldn't actually say that Darkvision negates Shadow Blending (SU) as the supernatural ability is granting the concealment, not the dim light (just a condition for the SU to work).


Well thats the thing, its only changing the 20% to 50%. thats it. so if darkvision would normally beat the 20%, it beats it all.


Darkvision does beat Shadow Blending(SU).

The ability does not grant concealment, it simply increases the miss chance from existing concealment.

Anything that removes the miss chance due to lighting conditions will remove all of the miss chance.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A creature in dim light has 20% concealment. It has that concealment even if all of its opponents have darkvision and ignore the concealment. The concealment is something the creature has when in dim light.

A Fetchling in dim light has concealment even if some or all of its opponents have darkvision. The opponents with darkvision ignore the 20% concealment but don't ignore the 50% concealment from Shadow Blending because darkvision doesn't say that it ignores supernatural abilities, just that it ignores the concealment from dim light.

That's my 2cp. Darkvision ignores the concealment from lighting but not from other sources. Can definitely see how a GM could rule it the other way though.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

A creature in dim light has 20% concealment. It has that concealment even if all of its opponents have darkvision and ignore the concealment. The concealment is something the creature has when in dim light.

A Fetchling in dim light has concealment even if some or all of its opponents have darkvision. The opponents with darkvision ignore the 20% concealment but don't ignore the 50% concealment from Shadow Blending because darkvision doesn't say that it ignores supernatural abilities, just that it ignores the concealment from dim light.

That's my 2cp. Darkvision ignores the concealment from lighting but not from other sources. Can definitely see how a GM could rule it the other way though.

Concealment, or lack of, is on a per opponent basis. It is a question of perspective. Dim light provides no concealment against anyone with Darkvision.

Compare and contrast with the Shadowdancer ability Hide in Plain Sight(SU), which does not require the user to have concealment, but only to be within 10' of dim light.

Vision and Light wrote:
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness

Liberty's Edge

Shadow Blending does not list a requirement for having concealment, just for being in Dim Light.

If the ability read "when benefitting from concealment due to dim light, treat that concealment as 50% instead of 20%" then I would concede that it requires concealment.

However, the ability reads "Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance" so that's what it does. Dim light? 50% miss chance it is.

I'm not hung up on the language included reiterating the rules for dim light being 20% normally, but I can see why someone might get hung up on that.

Scarab Sages

Danzibe1989 wrote:

So I was looking over rogue archetypes recently when i came across the Shadow Walker. Immediately it sparked my interest and i'll provide a link for those who wish to see it.

https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/rogue/arch etypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/shadow-walker-rogue-archetype

Fetchling has the ability to get 50% concealment instead of 20% in dim light. Does Darkvision beat this?

Shadow walker itself benefits from Dim Light and darker illuminations. Would the Shadow Walker gain any benefits against a darkvision character or does Darkvision trump the entire archetype making it worthless, as 75% of the monsters we tend to fight have Darkvision. The campaign this character would be going into is Mummy's Mask, a very undead oriented campaign at least at the start, and they all have Darkvision.

This one, Right? It's a pretty cool class.

No, Darkvision doesn't harm this class at all. Your looking at it wrong. This is like a Ranger Favored terrain, except the terrain is light levels. You can focus on being in Normal Light or Bright Light with this archetype just as much as you could focus on being in Dim Light or Darkness. And unlike the ranger, this class has options to manipulate the "terrain" into their specialized one. Class is focused on light manipulation, so you could shift the light level to one more suited for you (or your party).

If the plan is Mummy's Mask, I'd focus on being in Bright Light and getting yourself a party that spams Daylight. Or just Normal Light. Sure, no concealment in Bright Light or Normal Light, but you can still get sneak attack with flanks or could take Catch Off Guard while wielding Torches (which is a light source, after all).

Additionally, this class gains substancial darkvision bonuses and has the ability to negate light sensitivity, so could go with a Dwarf with Minesight (120ft Darkvision and light Sensitivity) and lose Light Sensitivity by 3rd and have 140ft Darkvision by then. Should allow you to spot enemy undead in darkness long before they have noticed you.

Scarab Sages

Oh, additionally, even if Undead have Darkvision, the drawback to darkvision is that it cuts off at it's listed range, which is often only 60ft. This archetype granting bonuses to the max range of darkvision means that you can often see them when they are unable to see you (granting you total concealment in darkness). I believe there are some Rogue Talents to increase the range sneak attack can be delivered from. Seems useful if you can get sneak attack to 70ft which should give you 10ft to stand it and shoot from against most creatures relying on darkvision.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I believe there are some Rogue Talents to increase the range sneak attack can be delivered from. Seems useful if you can get sneak attack to 70ft which should give you 10ft to stand it and shoot from against most creatures relying on darkvision.

Sniper Goggles are the best bet. There is a Rogue and Slayer archetype (both named the Sniper) that can extend sneak attack range, but both have rather annoying limitations that make them ineffective at their intended goal. Sniper Goggles are expensive, but they fix the problem completely.


Dim Light as a rule system is horrible. There is no way to adjudicate it properly. Sometimes "the base" matters (Hide in Plain Sight-Shadowdancer) (this is true even though there is no such base illumination as dim light as both a light source and something blocking it must occur for dim light to exist). Sometimes "the perceiver" matters (Stealth). And sometimes "it's magic" matters (Shadow Walk).

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Fetchling Shadow Walker: Does Darkvision trump the entire class? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.