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Trick Attack and Jump Jets


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Can an Operative use something like Jump Jets (which can be activated as part of a move action) as part of a Trick Attack? I suspect not, since Trick Attack is worded as "move up to your speed", not "take a move action", which makes my Android Operative sad, but I figured I'd double check.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd say your suspicion is correct. Trick Attack is a full action that allows for an attack preceded by optional movement up to your speed, not an actual move action. A GM may allow it, of course, but by RAW it's a no.


It's a move action that you are using to move, so there's no difference. I say RAW says you can do it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
TRICK ATTACK (EX) wrote:
As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack...

It's not a move action. It's a full action. You can't jump jet whenever you move, you can only do it as a part of a move action. Similarly, you wouldn't be able to draw a weapon as part of the movement in Trick Attack.


This isn't Pathfinder. Most of the skills that care about armor check penalty - acrobatics, athletics, stealth - are also used as part of a move action. The daredevil operative's whole shtick depends upon those skills.


whew wrote:
This isn't Pathfinder. Most of the skills that care about armor check penalty - acrobatics, athletics, stealth - are also used as part of a move action. The daredevil operative's whole shtick depends upon those skills.

I'm not sure I follow. Not all Acrobatics checks are move actions, and move actions are not components of full actions. The movement and skill check are part of the full action, not a move action (which is necessary for activating the jump jets). The rules are similar enough to Pathfinder for this reasoning regarding action economy to still be true.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

It's not Pathfinder. Pathfinder has gone through years of corrections and errata.

Pathfinder doesn't specify that those skills have to be part of a "move action" rather than just movement in general. Starfinder, for whatever reason, does.

Regarding drawing a weapon (for example), Pathfinder says

Quote:
"you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move"
Starfinder, on the other hand, says
Quote:
"you can combine drawing or sheathing a weapon or weapon-like object with moving up to your speed as a single move action."

Starfinder is specific about it being part of a single move action and not just a part of movement or a "regular move".

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"Move your Speed" is a specific action p. 247

Many nonstandard modes of movement are also covered under this action, including burrowing (using your natural burrow speed, if you have one), climbing and swimming (using either the Athletics skill or your natural climb or swim speed, if you have one), or flying (using the Acrobatics skill if you have either access to flight or a natural fly speed).

So yes, you can use jump jets as part of your trick attack action.


Stealthing after shooting during a trick attack might be OP, so maybe it is on purpose. Looks like I need an errata-FAQ, the kind that makes up a totally new rule.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
whew wrote:
Stealthing after shooting during a trick attack might be OP, so maybe it is on purpose. Looks like I need an errata-FAQ, the kind that makes up a totally new rule.

I would say it is still possible. It is a -20 to your stealth check and you have be able to pop and back behind cover. So you can snipe as part of a trick attack.


IMHO one of the best things you can do with SF is ignore/forget all PF rules that you know.

As to the OP, right now I would say it really depends on how "cinematic" the designers wanted the system to be. One one hand I would say from what I have read it is ok and on the other hand compared to what other classes can do I think it is a bit unbalanced. But your PC might be sacrificing quite a bit to make the operative attack every round vs other classes also.
So I am back with it really depends on how the designers intend the system to work.
MDC


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andrew Harasty wrote:

"Move your Speed" is a specific action p. 247

Many nonstandard modes of movement are also covered under this action, including burrowing (using your natural burrow speed, if you have one), climbing and swimming (using either the Athletics skill or your natural climb or swim speed, if you have one), or flying (using the Acrobatics skill if you have either access to flight or a natural fly speed).

So yes, you can use jump jets as part of your trick attack action.

That would work if it wasn't for the fact that jump jets are not just a nonstandard form of movement, they also require activation via a move action.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement.

Trick Attack requires a full action.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
As a full action, you can move up to your speed. Whether or not you moved, you can then make an attack with a melee weapon with the operative special property or with any small arm.

And a full action cannot be used RAW in conjunction with a move action. They're a seperate type of action altogether.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
If you take a full action, you can’t take your usual standard, move, and swift actions.

While I personally would allow my players to use jump jets as part of a Trick Attack at the table, I really don't think it's RAW.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Even with perfect maneuverability, it still takes a swift action to do acrobatics(hover). Non-operators need to get an extra move action from somewhere to take a full attack while flying. So operators doing it may be OP.

Also, tumbling, the thing I most wanted to be able to do while trick attacking, is its own custom move action, not just part of a move. (Shame on me for not already knowing that.) So the odds of that getting changed in FAQ are even lower than for the other stuff.


whew wrote:

Even with perfect maneuverability, it still takes a swift action to do acrobatics(hover). Non-operators need to get an extra move action from somewhere to take a full attack while flying. So operators doing it may be OP.

Also, tumbling, the thing I most wanted to be able to do while trick attacking, is its own custom move action, not just part of a move. (Shame on me for not already knowing that.) So the odds of that getting changed in FAQ are even lower than for the other stuff.

You can buy the ability to ignore AoOs via Operative tricks, so it's intended that you can't use acrobatics.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mackanstein wrote:
Andrew Harasty wrote:


That would work if it wasn't for the fact that jump jets are not just a nonstandard form of movement, they also require activation via a move action.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement.

Trick Attack requires a full action.

I would still argue it is RAW.

"Move your Speed" is a move action and is part of the full action trick attack.

Trick attack is a full action that contains the following actions:
* Move your Speed
* Make a skill check to trick
* single attack

Yes it would be nice to see this FAQ'ed but I suspect RAI is that you can use them.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
whew wrote:


Also, tumbling, the thing I most wanted to be able to do while trick attacking, is its own custom move action, not just part of a move. (Shame on me for not already knowing that.) So the odds of that getting changed in FAQ are even lower than for the other stuff.

I just reread that and was surprised. Using tumble is not "part of a move action" but its own specific action.

Granted for any melee operative, I would most likely get mobility anyway, since I would go for Spring Attack (or Shot on the Run)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
rooneg wrote:
Can an Operative use something like Jump Jets (which can be activated as part of a move action) as part of a Trick Attack? I suspect not, since Trick Attack is worded as "move up to your speed", not "take a move action", which makes my Android Operative sad, but I figured I'd double check.

The problem I find with the wording of Jump Jets (and all the skills and rules text that say "as part of a move action") is that a move action is defined as an action economy term, not actually referring to movement. Move action is defined on page 244 of the rules, and in fact, has nothing to do with movement. Unfortunately, this is the term used in Jumping, Climbing, and a whole host of other abilities.

For example, take the Climbing Speed rules on 259:

Climbing Speed, page 259 wrote:

If you have a climb speed, you can use move

actions to climb slopes, walls, and other steep
inclines, and you don’t need to attempt an Athletics
check to climb except in hazardous circumstances
(see the Athletics skill starting on page 136).

or the Athletics climb rules:

Athletics, page 136 wrote:

As part of a move action, you can use Athletics to climb up, down,

or across a slope, a wall, or another steep incline. You can even
climb on a ceiling, provided it has handholds, but you cannot climb
on a perfectly smooth surface. On a successful check, you move at
half your land speed across such a surface.

I mean, read as RAW, you can't climb as part of any action which is not of the move action type in terms of action economy. So if you can't use a Jump Jet as part of a trick attack, you can't use climbing as part of a trick attack or a charge.

But read that way lead to the crazy idea that you can climb while manipulating an object (move action), or telling people to "Get 'Em" (move action), or activating Dark Matter (move action), all of which have nothing to do with movement.

Clearly, the term move action is doing double duty. One as a term for action economy, and one for when you are moving as part of an action. I'd argue the only way to interpret "move action" for these powers/abilities/skills sensibly is as an action where you move.

Although because of that confusion, we really need a FAQ that answers when "move action" is a movement economy term, when its short hand for when you are moving squares as part of an action, and when its referring to a very specific move action ("Move your speed") that moves you squares up to your speed. Right now, its up to the GM to interpret what the developers intentions were.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Andrew Harasty wrote:
Mackanstein wrote:
Andrew Harasty wrote:


That would work if it wasn't for the fact that jump jets are not just a nonstandard form of movement, they also require activation via a move action.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement.

Trick Attack requires a full action.

I would still argue it is RAW.

"Move your Speed" is a move action and is part of the full action trick attack.

Trick attack is a full action that contains the following actions:
* Move your Speed
* Make a skill check to trick
* single attack

Yes it would be nice to see this FAQ'ed but I suspect RAI is that you can use them.

A Full Action is a Full Action. It doesn't "contain" other types of actions, and you can't in many cases 'deconstruct' a Full Action into self-contained smaller Actions without house ruling or errata at this point.


Peat wrote:
Andrew Harasty wrote:
Mackanstein wrote:
Andrew Harasty wrote:


That would work if it wasn't for the fact that jump jets are not just a nonstandard form of movement, they also require activation via a move action.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement.

Trick Attack requires a full action.

I would still argue it is RAW.

"Move your Speed" is a move action and is part of the full action trick attack.

Trick attack is a full action that contains the following actions:
* Move your Speed
* Make a skill check to trick
* single attack

Yes it would be nice to see this FAQ'ed but I suspect RAI is that you can use them.

A Full Action is a Full Action. It doesn't "contain" other types of actions, and you can't in many cases 'deconstruct' a Full Action into self-contained smaller Actions without house ruling or errata at this point.

If a move action refers to a move action in the action economy sense, are you fine with using Jump Jets as part of Get 'Em, which is a move action in the action economy sense?

Edit: Although I suppose Jump Jets has the "during your movement clause". I guess the better comparison is using climb as part of Get 'Em. With a successful check, you get to move half your land speed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

If you are using your Move Action to move your character (either to Move your Speed or another Move action that moves you) it seems like you could use jump jets as part of that. Otherwise you can't.

I'm not saying in the particular case of Trick Attack this is overpowered or anything. just that generally speaking it's a dangerous precedent to say Full Actions that allow movement or attacks also allow doing/triggering effects from a Move to Move or a Standard to Attack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As note earlier, with that definition, that move action means both in the action economy sense and the move squares sense, then the Daredevil Terrain attack feature simply does not work.

Daredevil, page 94 wrote:

Terrain Attack (Ex): At 11th level, when you and a foe are both

balancing, climbing, flying, or swimming, you automatically
succeed at any Bluff check required to make a trick attack
against that foe.
Acrobatics, page 135 wrote:

Balance

As part of a move action, you can use Acrobatics to move
across narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A
successful check allows you to move at half your land speed
across such a surface.
Athletics, page 136 wrote:

Climb

As part of a move action, you can use Athletics to climb up, down,
or across a slope, a wall, or another steep incline. You can even
climb on a ceiling, provided it has handholds, but you cannot climb
on a perfectly smooth surface. On a successful check, you move at
half your land speed across such a surface.
Athletics, page 136 wrote:

Swim

As part of a move action, you can use Athletics to swim. On a
successful check, you move half your land speed through water
and similar fluids.

So are only 11th level Daredevil Operatives allowed to use movement skills to move during a Trick attack? Or are they not able to even move when using that feature? How would you have these rules interact?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

They interact because you're not only balancing, climbing, flying or swimming while you're in the middle of that move action - you're doing it until you're not.

If I use a Move Action to climb 15 feet up a 30 foot wall, I'm still climbing during my next turn (and so is my target if they did that on their turn.)

Otherwise you would NEVER be able to use that ability because your target could never make a move action to gain the 'climbing' status on your turn.

Again, errata certainly might clarify how Full Actions could be broken up into smaller Actions, but saying that because a Full Action allows you to do something that could also be done with a Move/Standard Action you have implicitly performed a Move Action, a Standard Action, and a Full Action on your turn doesn't seem right.

EDIT: To answer your question, because I realized I didn't :) I'd say you can't move while Climbing/Flying/etc as part of a Trick Attack unless you have a way to do so that doesn't require a Skill Check (i.e. Spider Climb, perfect maneuverability fly speed, etc.)

I just looked, and Daredevils get 'Versatile Movement' as their Specialization Exploit to gain a Climb and Swim speed naturally (i.e. it would let them move during Trick Attack while Swimming or Climbing) which would circumvent several of the limitations to Trick attack if you went with that interpretation too and would be a nice synergy/bonus for them.


Fair enough, that is a self consistent ruling. Having an actual movement speed in that movement mode then makes all the "move your speed" clauses work out fine.

I wasn't necessarily arguing that you break the full action into standard and move, but rather that the "move action" of the Jet pack was potentially referring to actions which move you (as opposed to the move action in the action economy sense). I guess it feels odd to me that mobility skills like athletics, acrobatics, and stealth don't work with just any movement.

It also just feels wrong thematically that you can't actually hide during the movement before the attack in a trick attack. But then on the other hand, that same ruling prevents using hide while charging o running as well, so maybe it is the proper way to go.

So I guess that also means trick attacks aren't possible in hazardous circumstances when you would need to roll a swim or climb check, even if you have a speed? That is probably reasonable as well.


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I was just about to post this as a question. I'd really like to see a FAQ ruling on this. I'm not sure which post to flag though?

We'd need to know whether trick attack allows one to:
1) Use jump jets
2) Climb
3) Balance
4) Swim
5) Stealth
and
6) Jump

as each of these refers to part of a 'move action'. Should we flag OP, or one of the subsequent posts?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

[QOUTE="Starfinder Core Rulebook p.247"]
Move Your Speed

The simplest move action is moving up to your speed (see Speed on page 255 for more information). Many nonstandard modes of movement are also covered under this action, including burrowing (using your natural burrow speed, if you have one), climbing and swimming (using either the Athletics skill or your natural climb or swim speed, if you have one), or flying (using the Acrobatics skill if you have either access to flight or a natural fly speed). See Additional Movement Types on page 258 for more details.

It seems clear enough that any time you move you can use any form of movement you have available to you and mix them up.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

The only thing I think is clear is that when you use a *move* action to move, you can use any form of movement you have available. It's not clear when you are able to move your character using a different action OTHER than move action if those options that can be triggered "as part of a Move action" are available.

For what it's worth, Charge explicitly calls out that you can draw your weapon as part of the movement, repeating the language in the Move your Speed section. This would imply that the movement during other actions don't automatically grant you all the things you can do with Move Your Speed and that it has to be specifically mentioned or you can't do it. Otherwise it wouldn't need to repeat it if it counted as the Move Your Speed action as well.

Again not proof positive but food for thought.

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