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Forced movement & AoO


Rules Questions

Acquisitives

28 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Does forced movement provoke attacks of opportunity? The rules seem to be unclear.

In the combat section it states that if you leave a threatened area you provoke. It says nothing about it having to be willing.

My primary concern is when using the Gravity Hold ability of a Solarion.

If it does provoke you can use it to grab your opponents and move them past friends for AoO's/

If it doesn't provoke you can use it to grab your friends (or yourself) and move them into and out of combat without triggering AoO's.

Either way it's a solid use of the ability, I just need to know which way I should be using it.

Liberty's Edge

I would say that it would provide an AOO if a Solarion moved someone past another.

I do think the Solarion could target themselves with ability.

I am not sure if that was intended but the RAW to me does appear to allow it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

RAW is certainly unclear. Best support you could say to not trigger is it says "you move" which could be different than "your character moves or is moved"

My RAI is that the AoO is due to you dropping your guard when you turn around and move quickly away (moving your full speed rather than moving carefully 5' keeping your guard up with Guarded Step.)

Because you wouldn't be dropping your guard with forced movement, it wouldn't provoke the AoO.


Peat wrote:

RAW is certainly unclear. Best support you could say to not trigger is it says "you move" which could be different than "your character moves or is moved"

My RAI is that the AoO is due to you dropping your guard when you turn around and move quickly away (moving your full speed rather than moving carefully 5' keeping your guard up with Guarded Step.)

Because you wouldn't be dropping your guard with forced movement, it wouldn't provoke the AoO.

Eh, I'm pretty sure being shoved against your will, or yanked 20ft by graviton forces, would also lower your guard, even if you were semi-expecting it.

Anecdotally: almost every fighting anime, if they're resisting the movement (using both hands to block/resist, back leg out used to brace, etc), they're pretty vulnerable to the person NOT moving them; OR they are overpowered by the forced movement, and thus vulnerable due to not being ready for it/flailing/having their guard broken. Either way seems like it would allow for AOO from others.

Also, I believe the interpretation of AOOs allowed is one of the few things to make the movement combat maneuvers worth it for the most part. Otherwise the risk/reward just isn't as justifiable.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

A creature forcibly moved by a Solarion's Black Hole revelation does not provoke an attack of opportunity, per this statement in that revelation's description on page 103:

"Creatures moved by this ability do not provoke attacks of opportunity from this movement."

The rules for attacks of opportunity give two exceptions to when movement provokes (Guarded Step and Withdraw) -- note that involuntary movement is not one of the exceptions.

So I would conclude that a forced movement ability by default would cause the creature who is moved to provoke attacks of opportunity unless the ability's description contains a statement like the one quoted above.

Acquisitives

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That makes sense, and is the interpretation I favor.

HOWEVER. If that is the case, bull rush also provokes, as it does not contain that language. You could bull rush someone, push them back, and then use your reaction to attack them for leaving your threatened space.


Except while you are bullrushing and moving them it is your turn, so you don't have a reaction available yet. I don't think you can react while to are acting unless specifically called out as a part of a special circumstance.

Acquisitives

Reactions aren't restricted to off turn. They even refresh at the START of your turn.

Liberty's Edge

Kyron "Death Knell" Shess wrote:
HOWEVER. If that is the case, bull rush also provokes, as it does not contain that language. You could bull rush someone, push them back, and then use your reaction to attack them for leaving your threatened space.

I don't think this is the case.

Reactions, page 248 of CRB wrote:
Unless their descriptions state otherwise, purely defensive reactions interrupt the triggering action: resolve the reaction first, then continue resolving the triggering action. Otherwise, resolve the reaction immediately after the triggering action.

A bullrush is not a purely defensive action so it will complete first. To me this means the other person has already been moved back 5' (or more). Reach might complicate this a some however.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

I don't believe that the person doing a bull rush would be able to AoO, but I believe any other person would, as a result of said movement. Here's my reasoning.

Page 249: Attacks of opportunity are always resolved before the action that triggers them.

The action that triggers, in this case, is the bull rush. Bull Rushing, or rather, the movement as a result of the bull rush, is what would trigger the attack. However...you don't KNOW that the bull rush would trigger the movement until AFTER you've rolled, or how much. You could flub it, and the target wouldn't move at all. So you don't know if the person would be eligible for an AoO from yourself, as you are taking the (Potentially) triggering action. Assume that the bull rush is a success, they go flying...but it's now too late to make said roll, since you'd have had to make it BEFORE you knew they would move ("...before the action that triggers them), and thus could be hit with an AoO.

Your allies, or anyone else for that matter, see you smash the person, they go flying....and then that movement gets interrupted as they make their AoO swing.

Does that make sense? I mean, doing a reaction IN THE MIDDLE of the standard action that you yourself are taking...you'd be interrupting yourself.

Liberty's Edge

To state it a different way (assuming I do understand what you are saying): Allies get an AOO, I would not, as a result of movement caused by my bull rush.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Gary Bush wrote:
To state it a different way (assuming I do understand what you are saying): Allies get an AOO, I would not, as a result of movement caused by my bull rush.

Yes. Both from a rules standpoint, as well as practically...it just doesn't make sense to be able to smash someone so hard that you move them several feet, and then also have the time to make a full force attack while they're flying away from you.

It also doesn't make sense that you'd be able to get an attack at no penalty prior to a bull rush just by giving up your reaction. Would also open the door to AoO from reposition (I moved you so I get to hit you?). Solarian abilities such as black hole and gravity hold also have prohibitions against this (GH works like psychokinetic hand, specifically prohibits attacking).

Would taste of cheddar, in my opinion.


Adder007USA wrote:
Solarian abilities such as black hole and gravity hold also have prohibitions against this (GH works like psychokinetic hand, specifically prohibits attacking).

Psychokinetic hand doesn't prevent the caster from attacking (if you somehow got another standard action in a turn from an Envoy) or AoOs.

Psychokinetic Hand, CRB page 370 wrote:
You point your finger at the target object, gaining the ability to lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range. You can’t perform complex operations, such as firing a gun or using a computer, but you can shut a mechanical door or lid and work simple buttons to open or close automated doors or trigger an alarm.

The second half of the bolded sentence makes it clear the first half is referring to uses of the lifted object, not the caster. You can not psychokinetically pick up a gun and fire it at a distance. But there's no restriction on the caster holding a longsword and taking a swing as someone left his threatened area. The caster is still able to do anything his remaining actions would allow him to do.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Ah, I misread that spell, my error. That being said....I would still argue that since it is YOUR standard action that is causing the movement in the first place, because you're busy actually causing the movement that provokes, you can't interrupt yourself. Your allies however, absolutely are able.


Peat wrote:

RAW is certainly unclear. Best support you could say to not trigger is it says "you move" which could be different than "your character moves or is moved"

I agree that RAW is definitely unclear. Whether or not "you move" includes cases where someone else moves you does not seem to be settled for me.

I don't think the rules settle it and I think a FAQ answer would be ideal.

That said, to add some of my own speculation as to designer intent. The Starfinder cheat sheet says only 3 actions provoke. Given that forced movement does not involve me taking any actions, that seems like some evidence that it does not provoke.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

On the other hand, many of the "Greater" combat maneuver feats in Pathfinder cause forced movement to provoke attacks of opportunity on the victim. So, the RAI question would be, did the designers of Starfinder intend to give that ability earlier (after one feat rather than two) or not at all?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

Reposition also has the same issue. Move them and you get to hit with an AoO.

My level 10 solarion with 22+ str and improved combat maneuver picks up that goblin and repositions it flying-airplane-style around and around next to all my advanced melee weapon-wielding friends, who each get to whack it for free...

Makes Solarian's Stellar Rush ludicrous. (Move, then charge, then bull rush, then explode for fire damage, then make an opportunity attack.) There isn't a better solo damage option available (if damage is your thing...)

[Crack!] That's the sound of bull rush and reposition breaking the game, and going OP.

This one had better get cleared up quick. Everyone please click FAQ on the first post in this thread...


Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the effort to simplify the AoO rules are the cause of this confusion. I don’t think that forced movement causes the target to provoke an attack of opportunity. It historically has not. When a target is forced back the target is not the subject and moving. It is the direct object of the action causing the movement. The target is not moving but rather it is being moved.

This is the way it works in other d20 systems unless special rules are in effect. For example a feat or feature which causes the movement to provoke attacks of opportunity.

A character can provoke an attack of opportunity by choosing to move, “the opponent moves” is the text. It does not say “the opponent leaves or is moved out of”. The target’s action provokes the attack of opportunity, not those of an opponent.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

RAW if opponent moves out of a space in any way other than a guarded step. It doesn't say anything about on it's turn.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sliska Zafir wrote:

Reposition also has the same issue. Move them and you get to hit with an AoO.

My level 10 solarion with 22+ str and improved combat maneuver picks up that goblin and repositions it flying-airplane-style around and around next to all my advanced melee weapon-wielding friends, who each get to whack it for free...

Makes Solarian's Stellar Rush ludicrous. (Move, then charge, then bull rush, then explode for fire damage, then make an opportunity attack.) There isn't a better solo damage option available (if damage is your thing...)

[Crack!] That's the sound of bull rush and reposition breaking the game, and going OP.

This one had better get cleared up quick. Everyone please click FAQ on the first post in this thread...

Its FAR from gamebreaking as you are spending a feat, targeting KAC+4 to use the bull rush, AND using your only reaction for the round to pull off the whole manuver.


Also even presuming bull rush provokes, what's the real difference between Solar Rush->Bull Rush-> AOO and Solar Rush->Whack in face?

I mean, the end difference between the two routines is that one pushes the target back some (and drains your reaction) and one keeps you locked in melee range (Both options have their situational use). The DPR is identical though unless you wombo-combo it with another friendly CCer.

Edit: Whoops, forgot that the rush adds some fire damage for Rush attempts. Shrug. Consider it your reward for aiming at KAC+4 I guess. It's still saveable and I figure fire's going to be the most commonly resisted element in the game due to lasers and plasma being everywhere not to mention more niche stuff like plasma sheaths and flame tech. Don't see this as being some doom-worthy amount of damage.

Edit2: Thinking about it further, even if all this stuff is ideally interpretted, Blitz soldiers are still going to laugh at that routine. I mean, they're flat out taking two swings on the charge which is going to make a mockery of the extra fire damage the bull rush gives. No big deal I maintain.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

If damage is your thing, stellar rush is a 2d6 + 1d6 per 2 levels starting at lvl 6. Add the solarion's ways to damage others NOT on their turn. If you do your math right, an optimized solarion is going to beat an optimized blitz solider in pure damage output hands-down - not even a contest. It'll be the solarion pointing and snickering at the blitz soldier's puny attempt. At least they toned down bull rush in SF so they can only move a single target.

And the real difference is you've moved them far enough away (perhaps) that they can no longer take a full action melee attack against you. And don't underestimate that power. Action economy is serious in both games (PF and SF).


Supernova is 1d6 per level to everyone in a general AOE

Stellar Rush is 2d6 +1d6 per 2 (Edit:not 4) levels starting at L6 (capping at a total of 10d6 at L20) and only applies to the target. You also can't Rush and Nova since both are standard actions.

Whoops, every 2 levels, not 4, editted the math

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber
lakobie wrote:


This one had better get cleared up quick. Everyone please click FAQ on the first post in this thread...

Its FAR from gamebreaking as you are spending a feat, targeting KAC+4 to use the bull rush, AND using your only reaction for the round to pull off the whole manuver.

Show me any other *standard* action in the book, available at 2nd level even, that potentially allows you to move twice your movement speed, does 2d6 + 1d6 per 2 levels starting at lvl 6 to your target, pushes your target (*no* penalties on the charge/bull rush attempt) far enough so they can't take a full action melee attack against you, and RAW allows you an opportunity attack against them. Not gamebreaking?

Pardon me, but I don't want to see this kind of cheese in Starfinder, which in my limited play experience seems so-far balanced and relatively cheese-free.

Ah, FAQ it, please.


Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, forced movement does not provoke AoO.

One, the target is NOT taking a move action. Move has a narrow definition in the game.

Bull Rush says the target is "knocked back", not "moved."

Besides, the last paragraph of Attacks of Opportunity pretty much eliminates this nonsense, emphasis added.

Quote:

Attacks of opportunity are always resolved before the action

that triggers them. You don’t take a penalty to the attack roll
when making an attack of opportunity in the same round you
took a full attack, but you do take any other attack penalties
that would normally apply to your attacks. Making an attack
of opportunity does not affect your ability to make attacks
normally when it is your turn.

The AoO cannot be provoked or triggered because it would happen before the Bull Rush. The target has not been knocked back.

edited for clarity/emphasis

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

If it was as easy as "Forced movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity" you think Paizo would've put that single line of text in that section.

Instead, what you get are some powers that specifically state that the movement forced by this power does not provoke (black hole), and other powers that do cause forced movement (stellar rush) on which the rulebook is silent.

The definition of "moves" is what's at stake. It doesn't say "chooses to move" or "moves willingly", it does say specifically, "if opponent moves out of a space in any way other than a guarded step".

*In *any* other way* - well what other ways are there? Withdraw, a 'move your speed' action, a crawl, a bull rush, reposition, a pull from a special power.

Specifically the word 'move' is not synonymous as a "move your speed" action. There are move actions that don't leave a space. The word "move" or "moves" has not been defined as only a voluntary option.

Bull rush, reposition or the combat maneuver section could easily have had the added text "Any forced movement of an opponent caused by you taking the "combat maneuver" action [or any use of character abilities] does not provoke attacks of opportunity." There, that solves it, but it is not present in that section.


Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Regardless, it is impossible to make an AoO before the Bull Rush action. Nothing triggers an AoO on the part of the target of the Bull Rush.


Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Forced movement doesn’t trigger an AoO on the part of the pushed because an AoO has to be resolved before the action. Since the target of the forced movement hasn’t triggered the AoO before the attack, it is impossible to resolve it before the action.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber
sabelonada wrote:
Regardless, it is impossible to make an AoO before the Bull Rush action. Nothing triggers an AoO on the part of the target of the Bull Rush.

I'll play devil's advocate here, because it still is not clear.

It's not the action that triggers the AoO, it's the success of the action that triggers the AoO. A failed bull rush does not trigger.

The reaction is triggered only if the bull rush is successful (by more than 5 on the check), then the attack of opportunity resolves before the bull rush is resolved. This sentence in that section merely refers to the *resolution* order.

One line of text could have (and still can) solved this.

Please mark it as FAQ. I hope I've raised enough doubt about the wording that it could be made very much clear instead of left dubious.

The truth is I don't want to encounter a rules lawyer player at a convention who insists that bull rushes provoke AoOs.

As for the definition of 'move' - the solarion description of gravity hold says that you may possess an opponent and 'move' them. So, clearly this power allows an unwilling 'move' of a creature, not on its turn.


Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Anyone arguing that a Bull Rush or similar enables the attacker to take an AoO must also accept that the target gets to perform a similar AoO against the attacker. Tit for tat.

The attacker has to continue moving with the target to trigger.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

Bull rush (nor stellar rush) in Starfinder doesn't allow you to move into a vacated space, like it does in Pathfinder, so no it won't.

Reposition, though, should, if the repositioner tried to move from a threatened space. According to the text, the movement of your opponent must stay within your reach, so unless you have reach and it doesn't, it would provoke, if your opponent threatened your space.

Interesting, if you don't have reach, a creature with reach can reposition you without provoking AoO.


Seeing a couple places in this thread that to figure out CMD its KAC + 4.
Did this get changed somewhere in a FAQ?

As it's supposed to be KAC+8 = CMD.


Most people are assuming either Improved Maneuver or some other ability that does much the same, effectively bringing the CMD down to KAC+4 which is a decent assumption since KAC+8 is well and firmly in the don't bother territory.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

Please mark the first post in this thread as FAQ.


Bumping again as I would really like a answer to this as I'm playing a character that uses a lot of forced movement.

If it provokes -
I'll use the forced movement on the bad guys.

If it does NOT provoke -
I'll use the forced movement on my allies (or myself) to avoid those AO.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber

RAW, it provokes.


Sliska Zafir wrote:

Pardon me, but I don't want to see this kind of cheese in Starfinder, which in my limited play experience seems so-far balanced and relatively cheese-free.

Ah, FAQ it, please.

Calling it “cheese” seems like a bit much. We’re talking about forcing an attack against kac+8 and giving up your reaction to add some save for half fire damage to your attack. A save most enemies are going to make given Solarian DCs, so that amounts to about... 8 damage at level 11 typically and if you miss the bull rush that’s all you get.

Soldier by contrast at 11 gets to add about 41 extra damage to a charge and only needs to target kac+4 and doesn’t lose their second attack if the first missed and gets to keep their reaction, for another potential 41 damage.

82 damage vs 8 damage and nudging someone away. Yep Solarians are cheese factories.

Anyways your personal dislike of Solarians aside the rule seems pretty clear and the supporting evidence surrounding it is compelling so no FAQ click for me.

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