Coup de Grace and decapitating unintelligent undead and constructs

[Erkenbard the Eyeful]

If you decapitate in some way or do a coup de grace on an unintelligent undead or construct such as a skeleton or wood golem, for example, are they destroyed? I can't seem to find an answer in the rules. Also if you pin someone can an ally then do a coup de grace on the pinned foe. I think "no" as the person is not "helpless" but would like opinions or confirmation. It seems kind of possible to do a coup de grace on a person pinned in real life, not that I've ever done it, of course.

[SorrySleeping]

Most undead "die" at 0 HP, so there really isn't a way to make them helpless before they die, eliminating the need to Coup de Grace.

I believe constructs work in the same way, but that might just be summoned constructs.

[John Murdock]

construct also are destroyed at 0 HP again no need of coup de grace them.

and if they are pin they are bound and thus helpless, i would say they are not helpless against the one who is doing the pin, so yes you can coup de grace a pinned opponent.

here what it say about both pinned and helpless

Helpless wrote:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Pinned wrote:

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Casting Spells while Pinned: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell.

as you can see a bound opponent is helpless and pinned say that the pinned creature is tightly bound

[Xellrael]

The pinned condition doesn't state that the creature is "helpless," so you cannot coup de grace it.

Look at it this way: Nearly helpless isn't the same as completely helpless.

[John Murdock]

helpless say that to be helpless you need to be bound or held, if someone pin you, you are tightly bound as per pinned condition which fulfilled the helpless condition, so no need to say you are helpless. there is no partially or completely helpless condition in the game.

also do you think a creature that is bound by a rope helpless or not helpless?

[Matthew Downie]

Here is one of the threads about pinned / helpless. Worth FAQing there, as there is some ambiguity. (My take is that it wouldn't say "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted" if they meant "A pinned creature is helpless"; therefore they are using the word 'bound' to mean something different in the two contexts.)

If you have some way of making an undead or construct helpless, you should be able to coup-de-grace them. Basically, anything that is not immune to critical hits is likely vulnerable to having its head cut off.

John Murdock wrote:

also do you think a creature that is bound by a rope helpless or not helpless?

Depends how thoroughly it's done. If they're hastily tied up in a few seconds by someone using the 'Tie Up' ability, then no. If they're securely bound (perhaps while unconscious) using a large amount of rope, and taking a few minutes to make sure they can't move, then yes.

[Java Man]

A helpless creature is treated as having a dex of 0, a pinned creature is denied its dex bonus. So if pinned = helpless why does pinned specify a penalty less severe than helpless? And the specific > general concept doesn't make much sense to me here.

[ryric]

Undead and constructs are immune to any effect that requires a Fort save, so they can't be affected by the "insta kill" effect of a CdG, but you could still get the auto-critical if you render them helpless somehow.

[blahpers]

Grapple.
Pin.
Tie up.
Coup de grace for auto-crit (but not save-or-die).

All you need is one person, some rope, and preferably a nice x4 finisher. Offer not valid against incorporeal undead. Unless you have some weird ghost touch rope or something.

[Erkenbard the Eyeful]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Here is one of the threads about pinned / helpless. Worth FAQing there, as there is some ambiguity. (My take is that it wouldn't say "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted" if they meant "A pinned creature is helpless"; therefore they are using the word 'bound' to mean something different in the two contexts.)

If you have some way of making an undead or construct helpless, you should be able to coup-de-grace them. Basically, anything that is not immune to critical hits is likely vulnerable to having its head cut off.

John Murdock wrote:

also do you think a creature that is bound by a rope helpless or not helpless?

Depends how thoroughly it's done. If they're hastily tied up in a few seconds by someone using the 'Tie Up' ability, then no. If they're securely bound (perhaps while unconscious) using a large amount of rope, and taking a few minutes to make sure they can't move, then yes.

I totally agree with what you say. I think I will allow a coup de grace on skeletons or constructs if they are bound in a way that makes them helpless. It makes total sense that you would be able to cut off the skull of said skeleton if it was bound firmly in place. I would say the magic would emanate from the heads of such creatures and the head has to be part of the body. Also this thread has now reminded me of the tying up rules and how I need to decide the difference between tying up in combat and firmly binding a foe later. Cheers