After my build was done... I realized something... About Solar Armor

[HWalsh]

Solar Armor is not worth it if you are going for maximum KAC/EAC.

Hear me out -

Light Armor's best armor, the Hardlight, Specialist, allows +8 Dex and grants +22/+22, with the +2 from Solar Armor that gives you a maximum of:

+22+8+2+10 = 42 EAC / 42 KAC

Heavy Armor's best armor, the Vesk Monolith III, allows +5 Dex and grants +26 EAC / +27 KAC as Heavy Armor it can also have a Phase Shield (light armor cannot) to increase that to +27 EAC / +27 KAC.

Easily you can have a +5 Dex bonus at 20 even if you started with as low as a 12 (it really wasn't hard) so you end up with:

+27+5+10 = 42 EAC / 42 KAC

Meaning that Heavy Armor can reach the exact same number as Light Armor with a Solarian Shield.

There are other benefits to a High Dex, of course, You'll have a better Reflex Save, you'll have some better skills as well, and you'll hit more often with Ranged Attacks.

It really is a point of preference... The main thing though is, the Myth that Solarian Armor is the best AC in the game? Nope. Heavy Armor can match it.

[Deadmanwalking]

Huh. I'd missed the Phase Shield. Interesting.

[HWalsh]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Huh. I'd missed the Phase Shield. Interesting.

Yup. It caught me off guard a little too. I figured that Solar Armor would be maybe 1-2 points head but in the end... I got to the same number Solar Armor can get to in Heavy Armor.

Heh, you already saw my build on it too, so like yeah, getting to the eventual +5 Dex bonus isn't hard.

[Hiruma Kai]

As you note, Solar Armor + Light armor is not better than Heavy Armor in terms of AC. It is however the fastest. If you are more interested in STR than DEX, then heavy armor is probably the way to go.

[MR. H]

Solar armor is there to boost light armor ac with your lower dex.

[HWalsh]

MR. H wrote:

Solar armor is there to boost light armor ac with your lower dex.

The thing is there is almost no reason to go Solar Armor if you have lower dex. It is just a bad idea.

Your end-game EAC/KAC will be significantly lower. (Between 1-3 lower) and you won't have the mod slots to make up for it.

Hiruma Kai wrote:

As you note, Solar Armor + Light armor is not better than Heavy Armor in terms of AC. It is however the fastest. If you are more interested in STR than DEX, then heavy armor is probably the way to go.

Fastest... Yes and no. That largely depends on the average combat distance.

I reckon most encounters are going to take place within 60 feet.

Of all of the guns in the game 76/147 of them are at a range of 60 less.

More than 50% of guns cannot shoot further than 60 feet.

The entire class of Sniper Weapons only is good for 70-80 feet.

The class of small arms that regularly go above 60 are all laser weapons and 3 of the higher level gyrojet pistols. Level 15+ and they only go 20 feet further than that.

There are 59 long guns. 30 of which go above 60 feet. Meaning only slightly more than 50% All but 3 of the laser weapons, 3 of the 6 plasma weapons, 17 of the 25 Projectile weapons, 4 of the 7 shock weapons. None of the 7 sonic weapons. The needler is not as well.

Of the heavy weapons you have the largest percentage that can go above 60 feet. None of the 3 zero cannons. None of the 5 flame weapons. All 10 laser weapons can. All 4 plasma weapons. 12 of the 19 Projectile weapons. None of the 5 shock weapons. None of the 3 sonic weapons. 2 of the 3 uncategorized weapons.

Basically put... More than 50% of the weapons have a limited range of 60 or less. And a huge percentage of the greater than 60 are 70-80.

So, I don't think you'll see "fastest" as an issue. I mean, even my heavily armored Solarian can cross 60 feet and attack in a single turn by level 2.

1. Move 20 feet
2. Stellar Rush 40 feet.
3. Attack

Even grabbing the meager leg enhancements increases this to 30/60, then eventually 50/100 and finally 60/120. So speed isn't an issue as far as movement goes.

Initiative is absolutely given to the Dex, as is the ability to shoot guns better.

[captain yesterday]

Why would you want solar armor in the first place.

It's clearly not a light saber.

[Hiruma Kai]

HWalsh wrote:

Fastest... Yes and no. That largely depends on the average combat distance.

I reckon most encounters are going to take place within 60 feet.

I admit that whether fastest is useful completely depends on your GM. Of course, if all combat is at 60 feet or under, you are saying sniper rifles will never be used by enemies, nor will they use something like dimension door. I don't know how good of an assumption that is. I've certainly been sniped at by archers in Pathfinder society play at ~1000 feet before.

HWalsh wrote:

Of all of the guns in the game 76/147 of them are at a range of 60 less.

More than 50% of guns cannot shoot further than 60 feet.

They can shoot out up to 10 range increments at -2 to hit per additional range increment. I played with a 1st level Sharpshooter Soldier with a laser rifle that could shoot 320' feet with a +0 net to-hit (+6-6). At 1st level, that's still like 45% chance to hit out past 300'.

HWalsh wrote:

The entire class of Sniper Weapons only is good for 70-80 feet.

Sniper rifles can take move action to get their greater range increment. Of which the shortest is 250' and the longest is 1000'. In principle, high end sniper rifles can shoot at you from 10,000 feet. Only -4 to hit out to 3,000 feet for example.

The game certainly supports long range engagements even if a typical map does not.

[HWalsh]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Fastest... Yes and no. That largely depends on the average combat distance.

I reckon most encounters are going to take place within 60 feet.

I admit that whether fastest is useful completely depends on your GM. Of course, if all combat is at 60 feet or under, you are saying sniper rifles will never be used by enemies, nor will they use something like dimension door. I don't know how good of an assumption that is. I've certainly been sniped at by archers in Pathfinder society play at ~1000 feet before.

HWalsh wrote:

Of all of the guns in the game 76/147 of them are at a range of 60 less.

More than 50% of guns cannot shoot further than 60 feet.

They can shoot out up to 10 range increments at -2 to hit per additional range increment. I played with a 1st level Sharpshooter Soldier with a laser rifle that could shoot 320' feet with a +0 net to-hit (+6-6). At 1st level, that's still like 45% chance to hit out past 300'.

HWalsh wrote:

The entire class of Sniper Weapons only is good for 70-80 feet.

Quote:

Sniper rifles can take move action to get their greater range increment. Of which the shortest is 250' and the longest is 1000'. In principle, high end sniper rifles can shoot at you from 10,000 feet. Only -4 to hit out to 3,000 feet for example.

The game certainly supports long range engagements even if a typical map does not.

I fully agree that it can be done.

However it does become problematic at the high levels from what I have been able to math out anyway.

To use lasers and/or sniper rifles:

The maximum attack bonus (at level 20) is something like +29 (Pretty sure that is the maximum - That assumes a +8 stat bonus, a +20 BAB, +1 Weapon Proficiency) even at sniper ranges a 42 KAC/KEC requires a 13+ to hit. So that, right there, gives a 60% miss chance and limits the Sniper to 1 shot per round because the move action kills the Full Attack.

The Full Attack is a bad idea in general at that point, the -4 to the attack roll means that it's an 80% miss chance. Then you have to worry about deflections.

The other issue you are going to see is DR/Resistance

From my rough estimate you're likely to see DR 20/-- from Enhanced Resistance and 15 Resistance Thermal Capacitor. This is a problem with ranged combat.

5 of this can be negated with Penetrating Attack, which I highly recommend. But that still means you're contending with a 15 DR and 10 Resistance.

The biggest Sniper Rifle does 10d10 p, so the highest damage without taking penalties you're going to get (is with a Soldier) is 10d10 +2d6 +20 - That is pretty good. It averages 62 damage per hit. Dropping the damage to 47 per shot.

Taking penalties can get you an additional +10 (if you are a Soldier) damage. The down-side with that is you are dealing, at that point, with an additional -2 penalty, lowering the 29 to a 27, meaning you only hit on a 15+ Which means there is a good chance you're going to miss.

That can get tricky with a Solarian at that level. That is because you are on a shot clock. From any distance (as long as they can see where the shot came from) it is possible for them to clear it on the 2nd turn. Which is kind of horrifying.

Now, note, I am only pointing out how it works against this particular kind of build. I don't think snipers are a good idea on it. By the time they are at this level, this kind of build can move 180 per round (or more) usually (and still attack). The Solarian, in this case, would activate something like "Ray of Light" or something like that and just pop over to the sniper.

Editing to add:

While you could try to snipe from 3,000 foot (with a -4) you're still facing a very low chance to hit.

+29 with a -4 vs KAC/EAC 42 - You're effectively shooting with a +25 - That means you need a 17+ to hit 42 - A 16 or less misses. That is an 80% chance to miss. I wouldn't really put much stock in that hitting with how fast people can move.

I mean, again, 3,000 feet? Some builds can cross that in turn 2.

[Hiruma Kai]

HWalsh wrote:

I fully agree that it can be done.

However it does become problematic at the high levels from what I have been able to math out anyway.

To use lasers and/or sniper rifles:

The maximum attack bonus (at level 20) is something like +29 (Pretty sure that is the maximum - That assumes a +8 stat bonus, a +20 BAB, +1 Weapon Proficiency) even at sniper ranges a 42 KAC/KEC requires a 13+ to hit. So that, right there, gives a 60% miss chance and limits the Sniper to 1 shot per round because the move action kills the Full Attack.

I'll point out NPCs have lower EAC/KACs than player characters, while having higher to-hit bonuses. If you're fighting player versus player your analysis holds. However, compare some of the monsters in First Contact to equivalent level PCs. See also a developer's comments on the math in Starfinder here.

Just look at the only level 20 monster in the CRB, on page 421. It only has an EAC of 34 and a KAC of 35. Which hits on a 6 or higher with your proposed player character's +29 to-hit bonus.

However, let us consider a bit lower level (something people are likely to play at) and a monster with an actual sniper rifle from the First Contact pdf. The Sarcian has a sniper rifle with +12 1d10+5 at CR 5. Level 5 Heavy Armor with 14 Dex gives 22 KAC. So this NPC hits on 10 or higher, 55% hit chance at 250 feet, 45% odds at 500 feet. Unless the character is running towards him, at which point the character is flat footed and the odds to hit go up 10%. With his move speed of 40 feet per round, once you start to get close, he can just run away from your 20 feet per round move speed.

[HWalsh]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

I fully agree that it can be done.

However it does become problematic at the high levels from what I have been able to math out anyway.

To use lasers and/or sniper rifles:

The maximum attack bonus (at level 20) is something like +29 (Pretty sure that is the maximum - That assumes a +8 stat bonus, a +20 BAB, +1 Weapon Proficiency) even at sniper ranges a 42 KAC/KEC requires a 13+ to hit. So that, right there, gives a 60% miss chance and limits the Sniper to 1 shot per round because the move action kills the Full Attack.

I'll point out NPCs have lower EAC/KACs than player characters, while having higher to-hit bonuses. If you're fighting player versus player your analysis holds. However, compare some of the monsters in First Contact to equivalent level PCs. See also a developer's comments on the math in Starfinder here.

Just look at the only level 20 monster in the CRB, on page 421. It only has an EAC of 34 and a KAC of 35. Which hits on a 6 or higher with your proposed player character's +29 to-hit bonus.

However, let us consider a bit lower level (something people are likely to play at) and a monster with an actual sniper rifle from the First Contact pdf. The Sarcian has a sniper rifle with +12 1d10+5 at CR 5. Level 5 Heavy Armor with 14 Dex gives 22 KAC. So this NPC hits on 10 or higher, 55% hit chance at 250 feet, 45% odds at 500 feet. Unless the character is running towards him, at which point the character is flat footed and the odds to hit go up 10%. With his move speed of 40 feet per round, once you start to get close, he can just run away from your 20 feet per round move speed.

250 feet at level 5...

Depending on the terrain a PC could close. They'd likely only close in round 3.

Eh, that 20 move speed (assuming there have been no movement upgrades) closes and hits at 60 feet. So assuming the PC doesn't have Jet Dash, and there is no way to break LOS, you're looking at a bad time for the melee'er.

The melee'er should rely on using terrain and cover to advance or in this case rely on his own team's long range specialist.

If the PC has Jet Dash or a Jet Pack then the sniper may be in trouble. I don't have the NPCs stats to know it's feats.

Jet Dash could let the PC clear 120 feet per round. Unless the sniper stops shooting and runs he's in trouble on round 3.

If it's the same sniper rifle from the book that has that sniper range and he doesn't have penetrating attack then he's doing 1d10+5 p. If the PC has DR 5/-- then he/she might be able to afford taking shots and being flat footed.

After all the sniper can only take 1 shot per round as he needs to use his movement to extend the rifle's range.

The PC has around 39 HP and 35+ Stamina law of averages states that the PC could take the avg 5-6 damage per shot, assuming 3/4 hit, to close distance.

You picked a perfect level to do it as it's on the cusp of where he could likely overcome it. This also assumes a perfect setup for a sniper. No cover, no way to break LoS, assuming an infinite flat plane for the sniper to flee on.

If the PC has speed suspension level 1, potentially at 4th level, and Jet Dash, the Sniper is in deep trouble.

Round 1 - Sniper used move to extend range. Shoots likely hits. PC is likely fine.

PC jet dashes w/ suspension 1 - clears 180 feet. (250-180=70 feet remains)

Round 2 - Sniper either runs (gets no attack and is flat footed) or shoots and moves 40. Either way the PC has already won. The sniper either lets the PC close to melee or he keeps running without attacking until the PC catches him.

Granted - My build doesn't have Jet Dash, but you've given me a little food for thought.

[Hiruma Kai]

Oh I agree the situation is totally contrived, and without terrain description, somewhat unrealistic. I just wanted to show that enemies might actually use long range weapons with a realistic chance to hit and that a character might need to move farther than 60 feet to engage in melee.

Also, you should know that Enhanced Resistance is likely getting an errata in the near future to be equal to BAB/2 instead of equal to BAB. Best DR you'll have at level 5 is either Dark Matter in Graviton mode(2/-), Enhanced Resistance (2/-) or Dermal Plating (1/-).

See the developer's post here.

Anyways, I'm glad you're considering some speed increases in your heavy armor melee build.

[The Mad Comrade]

Range on the weapon tables (excepting blast weapons) is not finite range, it is the weapon's range increment. x5 for thrown weapons, x10 for everything else. A 60' range gives a maximum possible range of 600'.

[The Mad Comrade]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

Oh I agree the situation is totally contrived, and without terrain description, somewhat unrealistic. I just wanted to show that enemies might actually use long range weapons with a realistic chance to hit and that a character might need to move farther than 60 feet to engage in melee.

Also, you should know that Enhanced Resistance is likely getting an errata in the near future to be equal to BAB/2 instead of equal to BAB. Best DR you'll have at level 5 is either Dark Matter in Graviton mode(2/-), Enhanced Resistance (2/-) or Dermal Plating (1/-).

See the developer's post here.

Anyways, I'm glad you're considering some speed increases in your heavy armor melee build.

Ugh. Why nerf a feat like that? Change it to half-level instead, that way it works the same for everyone.

[HWalsh]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

Oh I agree the situation is totally contrived, and without terrain description, somewhat unrealistic. I just wanted to show that enemies might actually use long range weapons with a realistic chance to hit and that a character might need to move farther than 60 feet to engage in melee.

Also, you should know that Enhanced Resistance is likely getting an errata in the near future to be equal to BAB/2 instead of equal to BAB. Best DR you'll have at level 5 is either Dark Matter in Graviton mode(2/-), Enhanced Resistance (2/-) or Dermal Plating (1/-).

See the developer's post here.

Anyways, I'm glad you're considering some speed increases in your heavy armor melee build.

They were always in there. This just makes them come online earlier by 2 levels. Nimble moves was in there to help distance. If enhanced resistance gets nerfed I'd simply swap it on the spot with jet dash.

[JetSetRadio]

Disclaimer: I didn't read all the comments so this might have already been addressed.

My main question is, why would you want a Phase Shield if you are using a ranger weapon? You wouldn't be able to use a longarm because your using that shield. Also solar Armor at max gives a +20 resistance against cold or fire. Solar Armor Solarian is pretty viable in my opinion.

[HWalsh]

JetSetRadio wrote:

Disclaimer: I didn't read all the comments so this might have already been addressed.

My main question is, why would you want a Phase Shield if you are using a ranger weapon? You wouldn't be able to use a longarm because your using that shield. Also solar Armor at max gives a +20 resistance against cold or fire. Solar Armor Solarian is pretty viable in my opinion.

It is completely viable. Nobody here insinuated that it wasn't. The only statement was that it was "the best" option for EAC/KAC and it isn't. It is one way to get to the 42/42 number (though I did find a way for Solarians to get to 43/43) at max level.

Basically speaking:
If you want to optimize to use guns, primarily, then you want to go Solar Armor. You'll have the same AC as Heavy Armor and you'll have the best Attack Bonus for guns.

If you want to optimize to use melee, primarily, then you want to go Solar Weapon. You'll have the same AC in the end as Solar Armor and you'll have the best Attack Bonus for ranged.

If you want to ride the line (totally possible to do) between both, then you can take either and they're both viable.

[Cadynce Delholme]

HWalsh wrote:

The only statement was that it was "the best" option for EAC/KAC and it isn't. It is one way to get to the 42/42 number (though I did find a way for Solarians to get to 43/43) at max level.

Vesk?

[HWalsh]

Cadynce Delholme wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

The only statement was that it was "the best" option for EAC/KAC and it isn't. It is one way to get to the 42/42 number (though I did find a way for Solarians to get to 43/43) at max level.

Vesk?

Dex +8, +22/+22 from Light Armor, +1 from Gravity Shield's first mode, +2 from Solar Armor = EAC 43 / KAC 43

A Vesk going this route could get to 44/44 technically.

For Heavy Armor you can get to:
Dex +5, +26/27, +1 from Gravity Shield's first mode = EAC 42 / KAC 43

It's just not really something you want to do if you go Solar Armor because chances are you are a gunner and you want to use a long rifle which you can't do. Its great for Solar Melee though because it is a 1 handed weapon... But not really.

Edit:
Also it isn't something you want to do as a Solar Melee as a huge chunk of your damage potential comes from Photon Attunement Revelations. You don't want to keep burning a move action every turn to keep your shield up.