Butch A. wrote:
Fire extinguishers have a specified usage, which (by the rules listed) mean that they must use batteries, but their own rules also specify that they can be recharged for 10% of cost. Their battery must be a standard battery (which has 20 charges), and can be removed (again, according to the rules), so you can recharge your fire extinguisher for 1.5 credits, remove the fully charged battery, and use it in your gun or other item, rather than paying 30 credits to charge it.
the fire extinguisher mentions nothing about batteries, instead it states that it has 20 rounds of usage. not charges.
the only fire extinguisher we have current day that uses electricity is the sonic fire extinguisher, but it's not exactly efficient. it would be a much better idea to use something known to be more effective like halon, especially when things like your starship are at stake.
*googles sonic fire extinguisher* okay, that's pretty awesome.
Butch A. wrote:
A personal comms unit costs 7 credits and has 80 charges. That means it must come with a fully charged super-capacity battery, which costs 390 credits. You can sell the battery for 10% of the price and make 32 credits. It costs 195 credits to fully charge a 7 credit comms unit.
...
Beacons, flashlights, lanterns, spotlights, laser microphones, and motion detectors come with 10 charge batteries. Signal jammers come with 12 charge batteries. Detonators come with 5 charge batteries. There are no batteries with the listed number of charges, so it is not possible to buy a charged battery for these items, nor can you figure out a cost to recharge them.
looking closer, i found this thing under technological items:
Quote: Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical charges can be replenished with a battery. so no yanking batteries out of comm unit. this now makes the recharge spell make more sense, as well as all the references to 'power cell'-power cells are integrated and can *not* be removed.
please, correct me if i'm wrong.
Perhaps you might come across some alien batteries you cannot decipher . Brands you recognize should be fine but from species youve never hewrd of might be hard to read.
Well, this is a rules forum so I guess this isnt too helpful.
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jcheung wrote:
so no yanking batteries out of comm unit. this now makes the recharge spell make more sense, as well as all the references to 'power cell'-power cells are integrated and can *not* be removed.
please, correct me if i'm wrong.
Page 218. "Such batteries can be
recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations
(see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced
(see Table 7–9: Ammunition for battery prices)."
Hence the link to weapon batteries, and the start of all these shennanigans.
Something that was brought up earlier. While it's clear that tech items come with a battery already installed, I didn't see anywhere that stated energy weapons come with a charged battery included in the price. I was under the impression they come empty, just like all other weapons.
i did manage to miss that bit. i had something really long written up to try to fight that, but it sounded stupid on reading it back...
my token attempt will be this: it says you can replace them, but not remove them '_'
Quote: AMMUNITION
Weapons often employ electrical charges (typically stored in batteries), cartridges of ammunition, or individual missiles. A weapon’s capacity measures what size battery it uses or the number of cartridges it can hold, and its usage is how much ammunition it uses with each attack. You can use launchers to fire their corresponding missiles, which must be loaded individually. Reloading a weapon or inserting a new battery (including ejecting a spent cartridge or battery if necessary) takes a move action.
Weapons that use standard ammunition (arrows, charges, darts, mini-rockets, petrol, rounds, scattergun shells, etc.) are sold preloaded. For weapons with other forms of ammunition (such as grenades), ammunition must be purchased separately.
here's the bit where they come preloaded.
Here is what the GM of our group had to say:
The capacity of the weapon, is just that, the capacity. When you buy a weapon it does not come with a battery. The battery must be purchased separately. The same way you buy a bow and then arrows in Pathfinder
So if you have that level 1 shock rifle with a max capacity of 40. While it CAN use a level 5 battery, until 4th, you only have the 20 charges of the level 1 battery for 10 shots.
Now.. as far as the batteries themselves:
The amount of energy needed to inflict damage to another person requires a battery that holds a pretty serious amount of energy. These are not things you plug into a wall. Recharging a weapon-grade power cell is not like charging your computer. They have specialized facilities that can generate the energy needed to charge these batteries.
If you have a battery that can take an even larger charge, then it would require a more specialized setup and equipment. If not military, then industrial set ups to charge these monster power cell that are probably made from some insanely expensive materials.
Charging stations are not kiosks like charging your phone. These are specialized businesses that charge industrial batteries. Looking at it from the power station point of view, it would not matter if you only had to charge one charge or 25, it still takes the same amount of energy to spin up the generator needed to power up your weapon-grade cell. So in other words, once they have to activate their charging equipment, they still have to pay the same amount so they are going to charge you the same amount no matter if you ask for 1 charge or 50. It is all determined by the size and draw of the generator they need to plug your cell into. If it's a heavier cell then they will need to use the bigger machines so they are going to charge more.
I like this ruling and plan on using it in my own games.
But there's no cost when you have access to a charging station, whether on your own starship or readily available as part of a colony or some similar situation.
There is only the time to recharge, which is not at all covered that I found other than the rate of time per charge from the back-up generator armor upgrade.
For reference, there has been a discussion about Batteries and how to use them on the Starfinder Society side of the house.
Here is the link to what Thurston posted the other day on this subject.
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Yeah....I really don't like the solution of "No batteries for you" when it comes to weapons. Not only does it put them at a disadvantage compared to projectile weapons (unless you're planning on making these come with no ammo as well?) The price of a battery is factored into their cost, and at low levels, even an extra 60 credits can be a big deal, never mind the cost of the high charged batteries.
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The Mad Comrade wrote: But there's no cost when you have access to a charging station, whether on your own starship or readily available as part of a colony or some similar situation.
There is only the time to recharge, which is not at all covered that I found other than the rate of time per charge from the back-up generator armor upgrade.
Public charging stations absolutely DO have a cost. It says so right there in the book. (Sorry, I don't have it on hand to give you a page number or quote.)
Ravingdork wrote: The Mad Comrade wrote: But there's no cost when you have access to a charging station, whether on your own starship or readily available as part of a colony or some similar situation.
There is only the time to recharge, which is not at all covered that I found other than the rate of time per charge from the back-up generator armor upgrade.
Public charging stations absolutely DO have a cost. It says so right there in the book. (Sorry, I don't have it on hand to give you a page number or quote.) Page 235 of CRB. Price 1/2 price of the battery or cell, 1 round (6 seconds) per charge.
Gary Bush wrote: Ravingdork wrote: The Mad Comrade wrote: But there's no cost when you have access to a charging station, whether on your own starship or readily available as part of a colony or some similar situation.
There is only the time to recharge, which is not at all covered that I found other than the rate of time per charge from the back-up generator armor upgrade.
Public charging stations absolutely DO have a cost. It says so right there in the book. (Sorry, I don't have it on hand to give you a page number or quote.) Page 235 of CRB. Price 1/2 price of the battery or cell, 1 round (6 seconds) per charge. Public charging stations =/= private ones such as the starship you own or the colony you are a part of/have been salvaging.
I'd missed the charging rate. Which means that there should be a credits-per-charge-rate since there is a time-per-charge calculation.
If the characters' starship charges them quarters to recharge their spent batteries ... there is definitely a problem.
The Mad Comrade wrote:
I'd missed the charging rate. Which means that there should be a credits-per-charge-rate since there is a time-per-charge calculation.
here's the problem.
Quote: You can recharge a partially depleted battery or cell, but the price for doing so is the same as if it were fully spent.
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jcheung wrote: The Mad Comrade wrote:
I'd missed the charging rate. Which means that there should be a credits-per-charge-rate since there is a time-per-charge calculation.
here's the problem.
Quote: You can recharge a partially depleted battery or cell, but the price for doing so is the same as if it were fully spent. Which is where the rules themselves should be subject to the unwritten rule of common sense. Electric vehicles don't cost a flat-rate to recharge whether fully depleted or only getting a top up. Nor does a gas tank. There is a price-per-charge - potency of said charge determined by the specific battery - if there is a time-unit-per-charge replenished. It takes a variable amount of time, ergo it is simple arithmetic to determine the actual recharge cost.
KISS has its uses ... this is one of those times when it fails.
KISS would be "batteries are one time consumable items"
would make it a lot easier to track >.<
Maybe easier but sooooo much more expensive...
Just have to drop the price accordingly, also KISS. Thanks jcheung!
Oooh, and ... we could put fusions on 'em without anyone batting an eye other than 'per charge' or 'per battery' being the debate.
truth. the only wrenches in the loop then would be technomancers using charging jolt or recharge.
jcheung wrote: truth. the only wrenches in the loop then would be technomancers using charging jolt or recharge. remove recharge/transfer charge, problem solved on those. Not read charging jolt yet.
think recharge, only double the effect on batteries with no chance of destruction or damage (i have yet to find something that is purely charged by battery, so the safe way to use recharge confuses me)
removing them would be a bit unfair to technomancer who can use battery to power their spells though lol.
Meh. Make batteries per-charge cost reasonable, they'll chew through 'em like Pathfinder characters snort charges from wands of cure light wounds. It'll work out. ;)
Joseph Norris wrote: Here is what the GM of our group had to say:
The capacity of the weapon, is just that, the capacity. When you buy a weapon it does not come with a battery. The battery must be purchased separately. The same way you buy a bow and then arrows in Pathfinder
So if you have that level 1 shock rifle with a max capacity of 40. While it CAN use a level 5 battery, until 4th, you only have the 20 charges of the level 1 battery for 10 shots.
Now.. as far as the batteries themselves:
The amount of energy needed to inflict damage to another person requires a battery that holds a pretty serious amount of energy. These are not things you plug into a wall. Recharging a weapon-grade power cell is not like charging your computer. They have specialized facilities that can generate the energy needed to charge these batteries.
If you have a battery that can take an even larger charge, then it would require a more specialized setup and equipment. If not military, then industrial set ups to charge these monster power cell that are probably made from some insanely expensive materials.
Charging stations are not kiosks like charging your phone. These are specialized businesses that charge industrial batteries. Looking at it from the power station point of view, it would not matter if you only had to charge one charge or 25, it still takes the same amount of energy to spin up the generator needed to power up your weapon-grade cell. So in other words, once they have to activate their charging equipment, they still have to pay the same amount so they are going to charge you the same amount no matter if you ask for 1 charge or 50. It is all determined by the size and draw of the generator they need to plug your cell into. If it's a heavier cell then they will need to use the bigger machines so they are going to charge more.
I like this ruling and plan on using it in my own games.
too bad what he's saying goes completely against RAW:
Quote:
AMMUNITION
Weapons often employ electrical charges (typically stored in batteries), cartridges of ammunition, or individual missiles. A weapon’s capacity measures what size battery it uses or the number of cartridges it can hold, and its usage is how much ammunition it uses with each attack. You can use launchers to fire their corresponding missiles, which must be loaded individually. Reloading a weapon or inserting a new battery (including ejecting a spent cartridge or battery if necessary) takes a move action.
Weapons that use standard ammunition (arrows, charges, darts, mini-rockets, petrol, rounds, scattergun shells, etc.) are sold preloaded. For weapons with other forms of ammunition (such as grenades), ammunition must be purchased separately.
Well, it's their game, so... rule 0.
kadance wrote: Well, it's their game, so... rule 0. true, unless it's Society play...
Corbin-626 wrote: kadance wrote: Well, it's their game, so... rule 0. true, unless it's Society play... We have been told to expect an answer (or at least part of one) next week for Society play.
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On the Society side of the house, leadership has provided some clarity on this question.
For those interested, it can be found on this blog.
Kagerage wrote: not pulling up Another link: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lk6h?Science-Huh-Aint-It-a-Thing#discu ss
Not sure why that link was wrong but thanks for providing a better link.
hmmm I will take from some of this
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I'm glad that they produced an answer for Society play, but what is taking so long to come up with some concrete solution for the Core Rulebook?
This book was released in mid-August, and the discrepancy between battery prices and item prices was noted almost immediately.
Obviously, no GM is gonna let you buy a thing and sell the battery in the thing for more than the thing itself, but it's also a rules error that should be easy to fix. It's not going to have cascading effects across the entire game or require rebalancing of WBL, or CR, or a particular class.
The fact that the problem may not arise in actual play doesn't mean that it's not a weird, obvious discrepancy. I'm kind of disappointed that some errata hasn't already been issued (other than the SFS one).
The Mad Comrade wrote: Protoman wrote: How about instead of bothering to use the transfer charge cantrip, just plug the new looted battery into energy weapon and just blast away til it's empty.
Also there ought to be a way to know how many charges you got left once the battery's in the weapon, or are we to assume we're expected to count our shots EVERY time?
Frankly, batteries of this tech level should include accurate charge displays as part and parcel of existing. That they don't is pretty high on the Derp Scale. I have to say if I GM I think I would nix that and just say if you put it into equipment it will show you how many charges. Because otherwise the GM needs to keep track of charges of every battery of every player and that just seems like insanity.
Ah just read that link about the starfinder stuff about batteries. Makes total sense and is pretty much how I was thinking of handling it. Makes no sense to not be able to recharge batteries if you have access to your ship. So its mainly an issue for prolonged times on a planet or space station where you can't access your ship readily.
I would rather they take the time to review the information and make the best solution to the problem then to rush with something because players are pushing for an "answer".
While "Soon(TM)" is not a very satisfying answer, I am comfortable with it for now, some 3 months after the release.
bookrat wrote: The Mad Comrade wrote: The transfer charge 0-level spell takes care of looting partially-spent batteries rather nicely. Considering there's no way to tell how many charges are in a battery, and if you overcharges you damage the item, it's not a nicely wrapped set up.
1d6 damage per overcharge, and batteries have anywhere from 6-10 HP, depending on the level of the battery (5+Level).
For a standard battery, one mess up and you can destroy the receiving battery. You actually can't damage it, RAW, as all items have a hardness of 5 + item level.
CRB Pg. 409 wrote: Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. Each time an object is damaged, its hardness is subtracted from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s Hit Points. Given that Transfer Charge can only do 6 points, max, you can never damage any battery from using it.
Personally, I think it should be 1d6 per charge, as that is the same as Recharge.
CRB Pg. 383 - Transfer Charge wrote: You must declare how many charges you are transferring before casting this spell. If you transfer more charges from the source than the receiving item can hold, the receiving item must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or take 1d6 electricity damage. This spell provides no knowledge of how many charges a receiving item can safely hold, but you can choose to transfer fewer charges than the maximum allowed to reduce the risk. CRB Pg. 372 - Recharge wrote: If you recharge a battery, there is a 20% chance the battery is destroyed by the attempt. If you restore more charges than the item can hold, the item must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or take 1d6 electricity damage for each excess charge.
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I wonder if this battery fiasco will be officially resolved at some point? It has been quite a few months already.
As a side note, I was just wondering when my players will have the idea of putting a construct or undead with recharging armor mod inside a null-space chamber with appropriately sized hamster wheel and make it charge their batteries 24/7.
Why would you bother, when you can just. . . plug them into your ship's rechargers?
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Metaphysician wrote: Why would you bother, when you can just. . . plug them into your ship's rechargers? Style points?
Metaphysician wrote: Why would you bother, when you can just. . . plug them into your ship's rechargers? Right now, by RAW starships do not have rechargers.
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Gary Bush wrote: Metaphysician wrote: Why would you bother, when you can just. . . plug them into your ship's rechargers? Right now, by RAW starships do not have rechargers. Yes they do.
Core Rulebook, page 234 wrote: Recharging Stations
Most settlements of any significant size have public recharging stations for batteries and power cells. To recharge the full capacity of a spent battery or power cell takes 1 round per charge and costs half the price of the battery or cell. You can recharge a partially depleted battery or cell, but the price for doing so is the same as if it were fully spent. At the GM’s discretion, some larger starships might have onboard recharging stations. These might offer recharging at low or no cost, but they typically take 1 minute per charge to recharge a battery or power cell.
Granted this is homebrew but:
Guns come without batteries. The capacity/20 is how many battery slots a weapon is designed to hold. So a capacity 40 gun can hold two batteries. If you buy two Ultras you got 200 shots/usage.
Batteries recharge for free in your ship given time. Even with a decent amount of combat my players are not going through a massive amount of shots. Certainly no one has had to reload a battery during any fight so far.
If ammo is going to become a scarce resource it will be adventure specific and then a list recharge price is meaningless as of course supply and demand will determine the price. If I crash land my players on a prison moon then I will tell them what the recharge cost it.
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