Operative Specialization balance

[Thunder Badger]

Clearly a +4 Bonus to Trick Attack rolls is better than no bonus. The Daredevil & Thief specializations are the only two that don't receive the +4 trick attack bonus. This seems to make them suboptimal build choices, especially considering the other specialization exploits & 11th lvl powers are arguably better. (Particularly Ghost) Is there any reason why a min-max power gamer wouldn't choose Ghost Operative everytime?

That said I'm going with Daredevil anyhow, since it fits my character concept, knowing full well it puts me at a disadvantage & is suboptimal...but I feel it shouldn't be. This should've been adjusted during playtesting.

Quandry: Can anyone explain why Daredevil & Thief should be the only two Operative Specializations without the +4 Trick Attack bonus?

Plz & thank you

[First World Bard]

There is some speculation that the +4s should go to specializations that use non-Dex based skills, and that the Ghost probably shouldn't have the +4. Nothing official has been said yet, however.

[Darkbridger]

I can see the other specializations being more useful in certain types of APs, such as the Spy in an Espionage one, or the Explorer in an outdoor one. But in general, even without the +4 (which my group removed) Ghost is kind of the best one. It's tough to rationalize other specializations that have a skill that you might roll once during an adventure versus one with two very commonly used skills. Acrobatics and Athletics are often both options for any given task, so even Daredevil is kind of redundant.

[citricking]

+2 should work well, if you start 18 primary 14 secondary that works out to a +2 difference. After level up stat boosts and personal item stat boosts it stays at +2. So if the dex specializations get +2 and the others get +4 it will work out to about even.

[First World Bard]

citricking wrote:

After level up stat boosts and personal item stat boosts it stays at +2.

I agree about the stat boosts from leveling, but not the stat boosts from personal items. You get at most, one +6, one +4, and one +2, and those need to be in different abilities. So the first boost will go to Dex, and then you upgrade Dex to +4 before getting the +2 secondary stat boost; same applies when you upgrade the +6 to DEX before you take +4 in the secondary. So, once you start buying personal items your dex checks will be above your secondary checks by +1 or +2 as a result of personal items.

Edit: I see where I got my math wrong: first leveling means you have 19 Dex, 16 Secondary, 2nd leveling means you have 20 Dex, 18 secondary. Though if you are actually a character that really cares about your secondary (maybe a Hacker playing up the Computers/Engineering element?) you might start out with a 16 Dex / 16 Int, and that helps even more with Trick Attacks.

[Deadmanwalking]

First World Bard wrote:

There is some speculation that the +4s should go to specializations that use non-Dex based skills, and that the Ghost probably shouldn't have the +4. Nothing official has been said yet, however.

This is not speculation, it's from Mark Seifter, who wrote the first draft of the Operative. It could have been changed intentionally, but it seems more likely that errata will be forthcoming.

The current version lets you use another skill okay without maxing it out, or use your maxed out Dex. Yes, it's a little better with a non-Dex skill if you get a 14-16 in that stat, but that's very restrictive build. Seems fine to me.

[VampByDay]

I mean, I chose the thief because it lets me sneak attack while gun twirling and crazy knife fighting.. Seems like slight of hand would be the most appropriate skill for that.

[whew]

I'm going Hacker for SFS, since I can't be sure there will always be a mechanic. If SFS is anything like PFS, I just need to be stealthier than the mystic, and I might not use sleight of hand ever.

Also, I might take armor that has an armor check penalty but extra upgrade slots, making dex-based trick attacks not as good.

[spectrevk]

Was this ever addressed? It's December now, and the FAQ hasn't made any changes to the Ghost specialization. Is it supposed to just be better at Trick Attacks?

[rook1138]

if they remove the +4, they should add a new skill that ghosts can use for trick attack then.

The logic I see in the specs is this:

does the spec add a new skill to trick attack
No -> well, you get a +4 to the skill then

Yes ->
is the new skill dex-based ->
No -> you get a +4 to the new skill
Yes -> you have a new dex-based skill you can use for trick
attack

If you remove the +4 for ghost, they either need to add a new skill to use for trick attack, and if it's non-dex based, they'd get the +4. But then the question is...what skill fits thematically without stepping on the toes of other specs?

[whew]

Is there any advantage to using sleight of hand or acrobatics instead of stealth for your trick attack skill roll? Are any of the other fifth-level specialization exploits in the same league with the stealth field?

If it was up to me, all of the dex-based operative specialties would get +2*, because if anyone is underpowered, it's the Daredevil and the Thief, not the Ghost. The stealth field is so awesome that I'm not sure the Ghost needs anything more.

* +2 on the assumption that a typical operative starts with 18 DEX and 14 in their trick attack stat if it's not DEX. The current +4 bonus seems to be tuned for starting with a 10 in your trick attack stat, which I don't see myself ever doing.