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Batteries


Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild

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**

Micheal Smith wrote:
Lets look at Star Wars, as far as I know they don't have batteries and basically unlimited fire. But they do overheat and can pbpnly be fired so much at once. I think this how it should have worked in Starfinder

Star Wars used blaster gas to charge their weapons which was a limited resource that had to gathered, like at Bespin for tibanna gas.

* Starfinder Society Developer

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Minor Update!

I've got some answers and solutions to these questions/concerns lined up to be announced as official FAQ/Errata specific to Organized Play. I'm not posting them yet, because I'm off to a convention tomorrow and want to give the venture-officers some time to review the decisions and comment before they go live.

I'll be back on Monday (I'm going to SkalCon), so expect an official update on this subject early next week.

Thanks again for your patience!


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Thank you!

If possible....one thing I don't know if it's been addressed. Unlike pathfinder, where ammo is mostly trivial (Arrows and bolts are cheap, and magic ammo is rare), ammo in starfinder is actually a fairly major expense, especially when it comes to higher level batteries. It doesn't really fall under the "less than 50 credits" threshold to be sure. Ammo in general, actually, is kind of weird...unlike other loot found, it doesn't get turned in at the end, and unlike credits spent, found ammo isn't required to be paid for if used. Clarification on this, as well as other expendable/shootable/splodable items would be helpful.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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General reminder that with the new rules in Starfinder, comes new places where questions over rules might arise. Sometimes these questions can turn out to be very volatile subjects and opinions on how to interpret words or sentences can vary wildly. As community members posting on our forum, you need to remain respectful in your responses to each other. Repeated instances of back and forth bickering or insults may result in your forum posting privileges being temporarily revoked.

****

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Have fun at Skalcon Thurston and give Hmm a hug from me!

Scarab Sages ***** Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

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Magabeus wrote:
Have fun at Skalcon Thurston and give Hmm a hug from me!

Give HMM all the hugs!

Liberty's Edge *

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Tineke Bolleman wrote:
Magabeus wrote:
Have fun at Skalcon Thurston and give Hmm a hug from me!
Give HMM all the hugs!

From my experience at GenCon, Hmm will get the hugs out of you! You don't need to give her any.... :)

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Online aka Hmm

1 person marked this as a favorite.

* Oof *

Hmm grins as all the hugs find their way to her!

Thank you guys! You're the best!

Hmm

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Online aka Hmm

2 people marked this as a favorite.

BTW... Hug achievement unlocked. Thurston has pictures as proof.

Hmm

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Hugbees!

*** Venture-Lieutenant, Missouri—Springfield aka Diego Hopkins

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From a more Meta perspective, a bunch of us older players in my area have to deal with inventory tracking, logistical management, accounting, etc in the real world as a part of our day jobs. The prospect of having to deal with this in a game, during our time off, to the level that we have to track battery usage between scenarios kind of kills the fun. For a lot of players, the solution to that is going to be to sit down at the Adventure League table ten feet away.

Sovereign Court ** Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka crashcanuck

Charging batteries between scenarios should become a non issue once you get the Backup Generator armor upgrade. Those upgrades are, for lack of a better term, hot-swappable. So at the end of a scenario spend 10 minutes switching out whatever armor upgrade you have for the generator and hit the treadmill back on Absalom Station and spend another 10 minutes switching upgrades back at the start of the next scenario.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Thurston Hillman wrote:

Minor Update!

I've got some answers and solutions to these questions/concerns lined up to be announced as official FAQ/Errata specific to Organized Play. I'm not posting them yet, because I'm off to a convention tomorrow and want to give the venture-officers some time to review the decisions and comment before they go live.

I'll be back on Monday (I'm going to SkalCon), so expect an official update on this subject early next week.

Thanks again for your patience!

Any word on this Thurston?

Shadow Lodge *****

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes, that SkalCon was awesome!

* Starfinder Society Developer

9 people marked this as a favorite.

The update is... I'll need to ask everyone to wait a little bit longer.

We're aiming to get something on this out in a blog post. Given how much of an impact that the Battery questions/resolutions can have on the community, it makes sense to include an official Blog post that we can cite in the future when people have questions.

Because of this, I'd give it about another 1-2 weeks for us to post something official. I'm also mulling over additional feedback I received from the VO corps, as well as a lot of good discussions I had with players about it at SkalCon (yes it was awesome).

Thanks again for your patience.


The one argument I don't understand is that we need to try to keep a balance between bullets and batteries. Why can't it be cheaper to use a battery powered weapon? I think that it makes sense for us to have cheaper ammo for energy weapons than physical weapons. The physical weapons still have a use, even if they cost more.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
vlaovich88 wrote:
The one argument I don't understand is that we need to try to keep a balance between bullets and batteries. Why can't it be cheaper to use a battery powered weapon? I think that it makes sense for us to have cheaper ammo for energy weapons than physical weapons. The physical weapons still have a use, even if they cost more.

I believe the argument is that it's already cheaper (batteries cost half as much to recharge as it would to buy a new one), and the question is if you should be able to take advantage of things like "transfer charge" to allow you to effectively loot your opponents without having to pay for it. Usually in SFS or PFS if you don't use stuff you find during the adventure you need to pay for it out of your share of the proceeds.

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

There are so many ways to transfer power between items, that it seems unreasonably forced to try to impose a WBL construction on it.

Besides, it's supposed to be the glorious future. Let's have batteries that aren't worse than modern ones. Nobody blinks when you charge your phone in a restaurant.

The Exchange *

vlaovich88 wrote:
The one argument I don't understand is that we need to try to keep a balance between bullets and batteries. Why can't it be cheaper to use a battery powered weapon? I think that it makes sense for us to have cheaper ammo for energy weapons than physical weapons. The physical weapons still have a use, even if they cost more.

Energy weapons already have an advantage in that they target the typically lower EAC. If you also make them significantly cheaper to fire(conceivably free in fact based of some of how this works) then you've made the largest single weapon group something only a fool would use. If I'm using a heavy weapon and firing 100 bullets a scenario, actually if someone is using automatic weapons that could be 100 per fight, and the guy using an energy weapon fired just as much but doesn't have to pay for it, then I'm paying 450 extra credits a scenario to target a harder armor class. That's about 1,500 lost every level, and quite possibly more. The projectile weapon group is the largest one, so this could severely limit how many real weapon choices are available in society play.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

1 person marked this as a favorite.

On the other hand...

1) Kinetic weapons deal more damage
2) Kinetic weapons don't have to deal with Energy Resistance
3) Kinetic weapons won't be blocked by smoke, etc.

and so forth.


Jack Brown wrote:

On the other hand...

1) Kinetic weapons deal more damage
2) Kinetic weapons don't have to deal with Energy Resistance
3) Kinetic weapons won't be blocked by smoke, etc.

and so forth.

in regards to 2), they do have to deal with DR, just to point out.

The Exchange *

Jack Brown wrote:

On the other hand...

1) Kinetic weapons deal more damage
2) Kinetic weapons don't have to deal with Energy Resistance
3) Kinetic weapons won't be blocked by smoke, etc.

and so forth.

On 1, it's hard to find compare them without doing an apples and oranges thing like blast vs single target or different levels, but I think they line up fairly closely where you can do so.

On 2, instead they deal with DR, which you can't get around by shifting to a backup kinetic weapon. I know we don't have much to go on NPC stat wise, but it looks to me like DR will be at least as common as energy resistance.

On 3, that's only a laser thing, none of the rest suffer this penalty any more than kinetic weapons do. On the plus side for lasers, they appear to get to ignore shields.


Lau Bannenberg wrote:


Besides, it's supposed to be the glorious future. Let's have batteries that aren't worse than modern ones. Nobody blinks when you charge your phone in a restaurant.

And in SF nobody would blink when you would charge your personal comm unit.


I get that there may be some power difference between the types of weapons. I haven't played with the numbers or scenarios enough to say to which extent they are different. But I would argue that a power difference isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes sense that a weapon firing pure energy does more than a weapon that fires hunks of metal. A weapon that fires charges off of energy is cheaper to recharge than one that needs to have a non-renewable resources and physical material makes sense to me. Futuristic weapons should be better than guns we have now.

Liberty's Edge *

When you expand your available resources from a single planet to a whole galaxy, I don't really see bullets or projectiles as "non-renewable" so much as "limitless" resources.


Maybe so, but still more costly to harvest than energy.

The Exchange *

vlaovich88 wrote:
I get that there may be some power difference between the types of weapons. I haven't played with the numbers or scenarios enough to say to which extent they are different. But I would argue that a power difference isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes sense that a weapon firing pure energy does more than a weapon that fires hunks of metal. A weapon that fires charges off of energy is cheaper to recharge than one that needs to have a non-renewable resources and physical material makes sense to me. Futuristic weapons should be better than guns we have now.

The problem to me is that the option that is at risk of being rendered severely worse is the one that comes contains a bunch of the weapon options each level. If projectile weapons were meant to be so clearly an inferior choice then we should really have gotten more alternatives. The weapon section seem robust until you start looking at how many actually fall within a give level range. Then it's a bit less so, and much less so without projectiles.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Apparently, our ships can just manufacture missiles out of thin space while we're hanging out. Maybe trying to track paying for any form of ammunition is kind of pointless in that context?

Liberty's Edge *

Since our ships are provided by the society at the beginning of each adventure, the society is the one who is providing the missiles/torpedoes.

Thank goodness because I would not want not to have to pay for them out of my pocket!

The Exchange *

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
Apparently, our ships can just manufacture missiles out of thin space while we're hanging out. Maybe trying to track paying for any form of ammunition is kind of pointless in that context?

Personally I'd prefer this, and that's probably how I'll handle is in home games. But your reloads, batteries and rounds refill when you hit civilization. Not for every play style but so much less book keeping. We're going to need some enormous checkmark sheets for society if they don't go that route. I know archers have always had to keep track before, but nothing like these quantities and now everyone will have to. That alone may turn some people off of playing.


No, Markov Spiked Chain was getting at is by the core rule book, that is how missiles work. They just appear after some time after combat with out costing money.

And I agree. The whole equipment section of the book to me is lacking. There should be more guns and armor and tools. But to me, it is logical that unless specific situations happen, projectiles should seem obsolete.

**

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
vlaovich88 wrote:

No, Markov Spiked Chain was getting at is by the core rule book, that is how missiles work. They just appear after some time after combat with out costing money.

And I agree. The whole equipment section of the book to me is lacking. There should be more guns and armor and tools. But to me, it is logical that unless specific situations happen, projectiles should seem obsolete.

That is dumb they reappear sometime after combat, if that is true. I haven't ventured to much into the starship section.

Also, I agree the equipment section is lacking ALOT. But please keep in mind this is the CRB. Limited space and they did't want to throw ALOT of things out at first. They could end up doing a full on book just to weapons. I am sure we will get an adventures armory style book. I hope they do a full on book and not a companion style book.

Also this is the first edition of the system. I am sure over the next 1-2 years we will see some changes.

Wayfinders

vlaovich88 wrote:

No, Markov Spiked Chain was getting at is by the core rule book, that is how missiles work. They just appear after some time after combat with out costing money.

And I agree. The whole equipment section of the book to me is lacking. There should be more guns and armor and tools. But to me, it is logical that unless specific situations happen, projectiles should seem obsolete.

I might agree with projectiles being obsolete much of the time, but I suspect "Analog" will come into play at some point, and things like EMP or other tricks will make your big honkin' space guns so much junk, especially at higher levels. Also...

Spoiler:
Already seen two games where things reflected laser fire back at the shooter.

Hope I got the spoiler part right.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Micheal Smith wrote:
vlaovich88 wrote:

No, Markov Spiked Chain was getting at is by the core rule book, that is how missiles work. They just appear after some time after combat with out costing money.

And I agree. The whole equipment section of the book to me is lacking. There should be more guns and armor and tools. But to me, it is logical that unless specific situations happen, projectiles should seem obsolete.

That is dumb they reappear sometime after combat, if that is true. I haven't ventured to much into the starship section.

Also, I agree the equipment section is lacking ALOT. But please keep in mind this is the CRB. Limited space and they did't want to throw ALOT of things out at first. They could end up doing a full on book just to weapons. I am sure we will get an adventures armory style book. I hope they do a full on book and not a companion style book.

Also this is the first edition of the system. I am sure over the next 1-2 years we will see some changes.

Reading comprehension is a thing...

"They just appear..."

No. The missile launcher has an assembly plant that can build new missiles from it's stockpile of parts.

Quote:


Limited Fire
A weapon with this special property can fire only the listed number of times in a starship combat encounter before it requires a brief period of time (10 minutes outside of starship combat) to recharge and rebuild the weapon’s inherent ammunition. A weapon with this special property is often a tracking weapon.

Liberty's Edge *****

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Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I agree that the best solution would be to make normal ammunition (i.e. cartridges, rounds, that kind of thing) free to refill between scenarios. Call it a perquisite of Society membership. The second benefit of this is that it saves everybody from a lot of fiddly tracking of large numbers of small things that get expended and refilled all the time.

Rockets and grenades, which do more, still need to be purchased. But all ammo clips and all batteries get free recharges between scenarios.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jared Thaler wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:
vlaovich88 wrote:

No, Markov Spiked Chain was getting at is by the core rule book, that is how missiles work. They just appear after some time after combat with out costing money.

And I agree. The whole equipment section of the book to me is lacking. There should be more guns and armor and tools. But to me, it is logical that unless specific situations happen, projectiles should seem obsolete.

That is dumb they reappear sometime after combat, if that is true. I haven't ventured to much into the starship section.

Also, I agree the equipment section is lacking ALOT. But please keep in mind this is the CRB. Limited space and they did't want to throw ALOT of things out at first. They could end up doing a full on book just to weapons. I am sure we will get an adventures armory style book. I hope they do a full on book and not a companion style book.

Also this is the first edition of the system. I am sure over the next 1-2 years we will see some changes.

Reading comprehension is a thing...

"They just appear..."

No. The missile launcher has an assembly plant that can build new missiles from it's stockpile of parts.

Quote:


Limited Fire
A weapon with this special property can fire only the listed number of times in a starship combat encounter before it requires a brief period of time (10 minutes outside of starship combat) to recharge and rebuild the weapon’s inherent ammunition. A weapon with this special property is often a tracking weapon.

Okay, there is no need to get hostile. Yes fluff wise they build new missiles. Mechanically, you have an endless supply of free missiles. Saying they build it our of something doesn't change the fact that missiles just replenish after combats and cost nothing yes people really think between adventures we should need to pay for recharged batteries?


Twitch Stitchwell wrote:
vlaovich88 wrote:

No, Markov Spiked Chain was getting at is by the core rule book, that is how missiles work. They just appear after some time after combat with out costing money.

And I agree. The whole equipment section of the book to me is lacking. There should be more guns and armor and tools. But to me, it is logical that unless specific situations happen, projectiles should seem obsolete.

I might agree with projectiles being obsolete much of the time, but I suspect "Analog" will come into play at some point, and things like EMP or other tricks will make your big honkin' space guns so much junk, especially at higher levels. Also...

** spoiler omitted **

Hope I got the spoiler part right.

I agree with you that there will be times that having a projectile gun will be handy. I plan to have one on my characters. I did say they should be obsolete unless specific situations. That would be one of the situations. I just don't see the need to preserve a balance between cost of projectile and energy weapons. To me, using a projectile will feel like using silver arrows or something. More expensive but under the right conditions, far more effective.


Well PC weapons don't have an assembly plant that rebuilds/recharges their weapons for them (is that a Fusion that they can get?).

*

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Well PC weapons don't have an assembly plant that rebuilds/recharges their weapons for them (is that a Fusion that they can get?).

No fusion, but there's the backup generator armor mod. 10 minutes per charge, only works while the PC is moving around (so doing jumping jacks are OK, but resting is not).

*

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
First World Bard wrote:
No fusion, but there's the backup generator armor mod. 10 minutes per charge, only works while the PC is moving around (so doing jumping jacks are OK, but resting is not).

As an aside, that item is one of the things that most strains my suspension of disbelief/science incredulity in all of Starfinder (specifically the bit about it using kinetic energy to charge batteries). In my headcannon, it's just a nuclear fusion generator that would work all the time, but the recharging station cartel somehow made the designers cripple it (lobbying for regulations in with the Pact Worlds government, maybe?) by gating the power output with an accelerometer that detected movement.


Nope but the assembly plant still theoretically should take base supplies that we don't have to pay for. If the cost to build a rocket is negligible, then it's reasonable to cost to buy some bullets and recharge a gun are negligible. The book never says how or the gun makes rockets from. It just says that after 10 minutes it "rebuilds" them. I am not arguing that we should pay for rockets. Just that when comparing what we need to pay for and what we don't, it seems odd. Energy should be readily available because we are based in a space station near a sun. Solar energy should be aplenty. The society giving us unlimited resources for rockets but charging us for an hour of energy between missions seems a bit wacky.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

vlaovich88 wrote:
Nope but the assembly plant still theoretically should take base supplies that we don't have to pay for. If the cost to build a rocket is negligible, then it's reasonable to cost to buy some bullets and recharge a gun are negligible. The book never says how or the gun makes rockets from. It just says that after 10 minutes it "rebuilds" them. I am not arguing that we should pay for rockets. Just that when comparing what we need to pay for and what we don't, it seems odd. Energy should be readily available because we are based in a space station near a sun. Solar energy should be aplenty. The society giving us unlimited resources for rockets but charging us for an hour of energy between missions seems a bit wacky.

Technically, it is the society's ship that they are loaning you for the mission, so they are paying to restock the supplies on their ship. Probably before loaning it out to other parties.

Keep in mind that ships and everything on them costs so much money that it is tracked on an entirely separate scale that doesn't interact with PC wealth at all. So you don't pay for anything on the starship, not fuel, not refilling the oxygen canisters that recharge space suits, not maintenance.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My thought on it would be this:

Ammunition rebuild/energy recharge happens at a slower rate when not on-mission, so it's cheaper. It just takes a lot of time, so it's not reliable in-combat/on-mission for quick reloads.

The versions being used during sessions is a higher-rate recharge, so it's more expensive.

This preserves both the option of not having the insane granularity between sessions and also making the cost of things an issue, the money still needs to be spent to get the ammo/energy in the first place, after all.

***

Is anyone here arguing that ammo/energy should be recharging IN-scenario?

If this is all a discussion of between scenario restocking, why not wait for the rules on that? Especially since there is a battery revamp in the works. There are a number of possible fixes that may be in the works and invalid any of these issues.

Until then, loot the dead and use their ammo/batteries. Having played all but 1 SFS offering I've used maybe 30 small arms rounds, not enough to worry about.


rknop wrote:

I agree that the best solution would be to make normal ammunition (i.e. cartridges, rounds, that kind of thing) free to refill between scenarios. Call it a perquisite of Society membership. The second benefit of this is that it saves everybody from a lot of fiddly tracking of large numbers of small things that get expended and refilled all the time.

Rockets and grenades, which do more, still need to be purchased. But all ammo clips and all batteries get free recharges between scenarios.

You already get to keep ammunition that you find during the adventures so there really is no such need for a free ammo. Not to mention that some ammo is more expensive then some weapons. And tracking ammo usage is really simple if every player tracks for himself like they should.

The Exchange *

Devasura wrote:
rknop wrote:

I agree that the best solution would be to make normal ammunition (i.e. cartridges, rounds, that kind of thing) free to refill between scenarios. Call it a perquisite of Society membership. The second benefit of this is that it saves everybody from a lot of fiddly tracking of large numbers of small things that get expended and refilled all the time.

Rockets and grenades, which do more, still need to be purchased. But all ammo clips and all batteries get free recharges between scenarios.

You already get to keep ammunition that you find during the adventures so there really is no such need for a free ammo. Not to mention that some ammo is more expensive then some weapons. And tracking ammo usage is really simple if every player tracks for himself like they should.

You don't get to keep ammo you find, you can use it during the scenarios and then it goes away. And I highly doubt that we'll regularly be finding enough ammo to not have to buy large swaths of it. And yes, tracking ammo is doable but you're not checking off a single box out of twenty. Your checking off one, or two, or seven off of twenty to a hundred. It's a fair bit of work and something everyone would have to deal with. Or they might adopt the option that no one does. This would be easier and require fewer pages of paperwork.

***

This is not some huge difficulty.

-Use a post-it note during the game. Write "Ammo" at the top. Put a check every time you shoot.
-At the end of the game write down your remaining ammo on the Chronicle sheet. Most of my sheets have a "Small arms ammo- ##" written on them. Last one has a "+30" also since I bought more.

If you miss a few rounds, no one cares.

Another way to do it is to figure out the cost per round (less official) and write in an "Ammo replacement" cost and pay that on every Chronicle to keep you topped off at x rounds on your character.


Darkling36 wrote:
You don't get to keep ammo you find, you can use it during the scenarios and then it goes away. And I highly doubt that we'll regularly be finding enough ammo to not have to buy large swaths of it.

Are you sure about this? General consensus seems to be that you get to keep consumables and minor items. And enemies that use ranged weapons also have ammunition for that weapon in their loot so you will be finding ammo certainly (maybe not regularly).

Darkling36 wrote:
And yes, tracking ammo is doable but you're not checking off a single box out of twenty. Your checking off one, or two, or seven off of twenty to a hundred. It's a fair bit of work and something everyone would have to deal with. Or they might adopt the option that no one does. This would be easier and require fewer pages of paperwork.

Tracking ammo is really simple math. You have usage and capacity for a weapon and number of charges/cartridges to take into account. Whenever you fire you take note how many charges/cartridges have been spent. And you won't be using 100 different ranged weapons at the same time that you need to track 100 different batteries and their charges at the same time. PCs will probably have maximum of 1-2-3 ranged weapons on them most of the time.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...

Okay, I think a Browncoat just died somewhere out in the 'Verse.

**

Sounds like maybe there is some demand for a magically enchanted battery / magazine / clip of infinite ammo.

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