Bard / Cleric build advice


Advice

Scarab Sages

I am working on a PFS build that started as a Human Cleric of Cayden Caillean, and I am looking for some advice. He got a bit of Bill & Ted "Be excellent to each other" in him, and then I decided that, due to the flavor, I wanted this cleric to pick up a perform skill, and then decided picking up a bardic performance might enhance the flavor. But the loss of a domain and the shifts to spontaneous casting make the evangelist a bad choice for the build.

So now I am trying to decide on a Songhealer Bard with a dip in cleric, or Cleric with a dip in bard, or what.

I want my domains (Conversion Inquisition & Travel) for the domain powers. However, if I am a primary cha caster (i.e. Bard) I obviously don't need Conversion. I like the high level Travel powers, but they aren't necessary. I want the flavor of getting create alcohol as a variant spell, which needs a subset of the divine casters to be legal.

I want enough skill points for a perform skill. I would like to have bardic performance using strings, oratory, or singing.

I had been thinking of the character as a medium/heavy armored reach weapon user otherwise.

Beyond that, I am not sure how to go with the character. I am flexible on the race and classes used. Any thoughts?


burkoJames wrote:

But the loss of a domain and the shifts to spontaneous casting make the evangelist a bad choice for the build.

I want my domains (Conversion Inquisition & Travel) for the domain powers. However, if I am a primary cha caster (i.e. Bard) I obviously don't need Conversion.

To make Evangelist work, just keep CHA up (get a Circlet of Persuasion too) and take the Flagbearer feat. That will allow you to keep the Travel Domain and be an amazing buffer before casting spell one.

Your bonus to hit and damage will be good with Inspire Courage, Flagbearer, and Divine Favor (with Fate's Favored). However, I'd recommend avoiding attacking yourself altogether and use summoned monsters instead. Example: At level 3, you could summon a small Earth Elemental that is +10 to hit for 1d6+13 damage. At level 5, you can get 1d3 of those.

As for spontaneous spell changes, it's pretty easy to memorize one emergency healing spell of highest level and then heal outside of combat via wands.

Evangelist the Cleric

S: 8 D: 14 C: 12 I: 14 W: 14 Ch: 16 (20 pt human)

Domain: Travel
Skills: +5 per level before Favored Class Bonus potential
Traits: Fate's Favored (+1 to luck bonuses), Reactionary (+2 Init)
Feats: Flagbearer (human), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd)

Variant Channeling Potentials:

Art/Music: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Perform checks and on saving throws against illusions, sonic effects, and language-dependent effects for 1 minute.

(gives you a bonus to your perform checks)

Ale/Wine: Heal—Creatures ignore the nauseated and sickened conditions, as well as ability damage and drain from poison, until the end of your next turn.

(be one of the only casters able to remove the nauseated condition via a Quickened Channel)


burkoJames wrote:

I am working on a PFS build that started as a Human Cleric of Cayden Caillean, and I am looking for some advice. He got a bit of Bill & Ted "Be excellent to each other" in him, and then I decided that, due to the flavor, I wanted this cleric to pick up a perform skill, and then decided picking up a bardic performance might enhance the flavor. But the loss of a domain and the shifts to spontaneous casting make the evangelist a bad choice for the build.

So now I am trying to decide on a Songhealer Bard with a dip in cleric, or Cleric with a dip in bard, or what.

I want my domains (Conversion Inquisition & Travel) for the domain powers. However, if I am a primary cha caster (i.e. Bard) I obviously don't need Conversion. I like the high level Travel powers, but they aren't necessary. I want the flavor of getting create alcohol as a variant spell, which needs a subset of the divine casters to be legal.

I want enough skill points for a perform skill. I would like to have bardic performance using strings, oratory, or singing.

I had been thinking of the character as a medium/heavy armored reach weapon user otherwise.

Beyond that, I am not sure how to go with the character. I am flexible on the race and classes used. Any thoughts?

Multiclassing is a bad idea on a full caster

Losing Spontaneous Cure is not really that bad. Most PFS healing is done out of combat. Sure you can prepare them as well for an emergency in combat healing but your first 2PP purchase should be a wand of cure light wounds. You still have spontaneous spells and Command is amazing for preventing damage and/or giving a fighter an extra attack. You hold an action for an enemy to approach the fighter..Command Down and they lay at the fighter's feet. Not only are they Prone making them easier to hit, they usually stand up provoking an AoO from the fighter. So you have denied them a standard action (Taking away their damage) AND given your team mate an extra attack possible finishing the threat off. All around less healing needed. So is it a Loss hell no. Later you get suggestion which you can remove people from a fight with.

When it comes to Domain powers I look at it this way:
The low-level powers are good in the first few levels but later if you're wasting your standard on these abilities your basically wasting your turn unless it is a OMG amazing ability like touch of Madness (Which builds are built around). You can only prepare 1 domain spell a day anyways and a majority of Domain spells are already on your list so it is not really a big Loss. I would gladly trade away a domain for Bardic Performance. That is an Upgrade.

I tend to Go full casting and using things like spiritual weapon and summons as my offense cause Bardic performance on a summon is just really good. Add in Heroism Domain and you can really flood the field with some buffed up summons. By level 8- Standard action to Sacred summon a Summon Monster, Move action to Bardic Performance, Swift action to Activate Heroism Domain power...Your group is going to stomp this fight quickly for sure.

Light armor is not a bad thing when using reach tactics or being a full caster. As for Skill points a Evangelist only needs 1 point in Perform Oratory and you can put the skill points anywhere else...After playing some PFS I felt Day job was not worth the skill point investment. Later I did Fangwood Keep and traded it away for the Boon to get an extra PP as a day job check.

I feel your lack of system master says Evangelist is bad...While those of us with a good system mastery is like Evangelist is a powerful archetype that makes the cleric more powerful.

Now if you want to go be a bard that is fine, I would look into Skald as well as they can heal a group pretty well too. But they will never compare to the healing of a Cleric, Oracle, Shaman, or Hospitalier Paladin.


Multiclassing a full caster a bit isn't necessarily the end of the world; plenty of 6-level caster class characters manage to lead fulfilling lives. Minimizing dipping is a good idea though.

If I was going to create a Cayden Cleric, I would really want the Revelry Subdomain granting Good Hope, which alone is like a long-term Bardic buff. The flavor of buffing through Revelry is perfect, and getting Good Hope at Cleric spell level 3 is extremely strong (and it can be used with Preferred Spell). Among other things, having both Good Hope and Divine Favor grants huge combat bonuses, making things like DEX-fighting or TWF much stronger.

If I was going to create a multiclass Cayden Monk with more skills, I'd probably be looking at a couple levels of Ninja or Rogue - both can use Vanishing Trick, and Ninja has Ki attacks. Rapier and Ki attacks makes for an awesome swordsman.

Dark Archive

I would advise using the Evangelist archetype as well.

I have a 1 Sorcerer [crossblooded fey/serpentine]/5 Evangelist, and focus heavily on the command spells. He can use bard song to buff in combat, cast from basically any wand or scroll, and can cast compulsions like no-one's business. I just had a game where we basically one-shotted a boss with the combination of a hold-person and murderous command. Turn one- hold boss. Turn two, murderous command on nearest henchman. One coup de grace later, it's game over man.

Where you'll run into issues with the Evangelist is actual combat ability. Only basic weapons, and you lose the medium armor proficiency. But there's so much more you can do, so it's not a big loss IMHO.


Tarkus Argentilla wrote:


Where you'll run into issues with the Evangelist is actual combat ability. Only basic weapons, and you lose the medium armor proficiency. But there's so much more you can do, so it's not a big loss IMHO.

15 Str and a Long Spear is more than enough to cover combat efficiently on an Evangelist Cleric. With your Bard buff and Divine Favor, you will hit regularly and can pick up AoOs with the Longspear since most your standard actions will be Casting or Buffing.

As for AC, you can use Shield of faith, Ironskin, Magic Vestment, Sanctuary, Stunning Shield. You have all kinds of Options.


Evangelist of Cayden with a one-level dip in Unchained Monk can also take Crusader's Flurry: Rapier for deadly rapier flurry, and use high WIS and bonus Dodge for a good base AC (you can also add Crane Style for a massive AC buff). Crossing Inspire Courage, Good Hope and Divine Favor on a Flurry of Blows attack would be murderous.


BadBird wrote:
Evangelist of Cayden with a one-level dip in Unchained Monk can also take Crusader's Flurry: Rapier for deadly rapier flurry, and use high WIS and bonus Dodge for a good base AC (you can also add Crane Style for a massive AC buff). Crossing Inspire Courage, Good Hope and Divine Favor on a Flurry of Blows attack would be murderous.

This is True.

I'm more a purist but this is a better dip than Bard would be in my honest opinion.

I just hate sacrificing my Caster level and being put on a spontaneous caster spell progression myself. Later levels those spells will out-weight dips usually. But since PFS is not optimized you do have some breathing room if you feel like you absolutely must dip.


It depends on what a Cleric's MO is. If a Cleric's primary activity in combat involves swinging a weapon around, then taking Magical Knack to maintain CL and having Oracle progression is a great trade for a major combat buff. 'I could have a higher level of spells right now' balances with things like 'but then my Cleric wouldn't be swinging two Furious scimitars with Rage'.

Personally, my favorite type of Cleric splits melee and WIS (or takes Guided Hand), and then uses long-term spells like Aura of Doom, Heroism, Good Hope, Archon's Aura and so on while dipping a martial level and getting involved in some good, honest (or really dishonest) face-to-face combat. Magdh Cleric meleeing with Monk AC, Mirror Image, Aura of Doom and Flurry of Blows scythe, for example. Maybe with a nice, tasteful Dazing Admonishing Ray to start.

Shadow Lodge

Louise Bishop wrote:
I feel your lack of system master says Evangelist is bad...While those of us with a good system mastery is like Evangelist is a powerful archetype that makes the cleric more powerful...

Evangelist is powerful at high level because (like anything bard) it's end-loaded. But they're arguably suboptimal in low/mid-level PFS dungeon-crawls in their crappy armor with no spontaneous Healing-conversion in emergency situations (and clerics will be doing that ALL THE TIME).

BadBird wrote:

Multiclassing a full caster a bit isn't necessarily the end of the world; plenty of 6-level caster class characters manage to lead fulfilling lives. Minimizing dipping is a good idea though.

If I was going to create a Cayden Cleric, I would really want the Revelry Subdomain granting Good Hope, which alone is like a long-term Bardic buff. The flavor of buffing through Revelry is perfect, and getting Good Hope at Cleric spell level 3 is extremely strong (and it can be used with Preferred Spell). Among other things, having both Good Hope and Divine Favor grants huge combat bonuses, making things like DEX-fighting or TWF much stronger.

This is definitely the way to do it, IMO. Good Hope is a rockin' good spell (although allies need to be mindful of which of their existing bonuses will stack with the morale benefits).

(I wouldn't do the Preferred Spell gimmick, however, as it and its prerequisite Heightened Spell seriously tax a cleric's meager feat allotment.)

~ ~ ~

human, 15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array (or 15,14,12,12,12,12 for no dumps)

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:12
INT:07
WIS+17 (all bumps)
CHA:14

traits: Magical Knack(magic:cleric), Survivor (regional:INIT+1, Sense Motive class+1)

01 rang1 [Guide archetype][Ranger’s Focus], Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative

...Five skill points spent one-apiece in Climb, Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Swim

(I have seen medium/heavy-armor PCs die in PFS because they failed a DC:5 Swim check and drowned. Others took severe damage because they blew a DC:5 Climb and went hurtling down a shaft taking several others with them. Others died just because they couldn't hack it in melee swinging a crummy d8+2 mace. -- Don't let anyone talk you out of dipping a martial class at 1st in an armored cleric build; make 'em tough.)

Starting equipment: scale armor, longspear, light club, sling, misc. (We are saving money for masterwork. Mooks die like mice at Tier1; main difficulty at 1st level is actually hitting anything.)

(Note: human build gains very little with INT:12 if it intends on classes offering only 2 skills/level. INT 07>12 is a swing of six build points and grants only one extra skill per level in a 2-per class. Starting with a 15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt array and sacking one of those 12s down to a 7 pays to raise two other 12s to 14s. Hell, yes; do it. Spellcraft and Knowledge checks? That's the bard's, wizard's, or rogue's department at higher-level. They have the INT and the points to throw around.)

~ ~ ~

Character backstory: Once a ripped adventurer in your prime, you're now in your early 50s and a little softer and rounder in the middle. "It's a miracle I've lived this long!" you proclaim as you hoist a frothy brew in the tavern one day. "Somebody up there likes me!"

"Well, you have been fun to watch," a bemused voice answers back inside your head. "Perhaps I could tempt you in a new direction..." The cheap, acrid ale in your mug turns golden sweet, and that's all the convincing you need.

~ ~ ~

02 cler1 [Cayden:chaos(revelry)/travel], move+10
03 cler2 Quick Draw
04 cler3
05 cler4 Power Attack

Equipment: MW bardiche, MW rapier, +1 quickdraw light shield, MW four-mirror armor, weapon cords

Combat tactics: "reach cleric" (see guides)

Feats going forward: ...I wouldn't take any more combat feats (except for possibly Pushing Assault, or Heavy Armor Proficiency for Mithril Full Plate).

The nice thing about the martial dip (aside from its usual benefits) is that it gives you something to look forward to at each leveling: On the evens, you get higher-level spells, and on the odds, you get a feat.

~ ~ ~

Sample combat at 6th:

1st: If you win initiative (you're +7), cast Good Hope (affecting six creatures), then ready polearm. Alternatively, declare ready-action to strike first opponent to enter your 25'x25' threatened area.

...if attacked, take AoOs (one if you cast the spell, or two if you readied (one for the ready, and the second for them moving closer to 5' adjacent).

2nd: Swift-declare Ranger's Focus and Power Attack opponent, either with the pole-arm, or with quickdrawn shield and rapier.

You have only one Ranger's Focus per day; use it wisely.


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Good hope works great with most barbs and bloodragers. Only the superstitious chained barbs don't get AS much use from it, but still get plenty that they'd enjoy it.


For a Cayden reach Cleric, I'd probably go with a rapier, using a Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf to gain reach on a rapier while using a buckler. A single Swashbuckler dip will grant free finesse and a Panache Pool to use the scarf with (Extra Panache for a 3 point pool regardless of how low CHA is). You're also set up for Fencing Grace.

Shadow Lodge

BadBird wrote:
For a Cayden reach Cleric, I'd probably go with a rapier, using a Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf to gain reach on a rapier while using a buckler. A single Swashbuckler dip will grant free finesse and a Panache Pool to use the scarf with (Extra Panache for a 3 point pool regardless of how low CHA is). You're also set up for Fencing Grace.

The main problem with this approach is only one or two pinache points per day to activate that Blue Scarf reach ability (among an exhaustive list of other Deeds the swashbuckling Arya Stark would love to do. (In PFS, this results in lots of lightly armored & low-output concepts bouncing around and getting their brains bashed out before 4th level.) It also costs an extra feat for Fencing Grace yielding meager gains (att+1 with DEX16 over STR14 and nerfed INT or CON to pay for it?, or do you dump STR and give up Power Attack, which means damage is total poop prior to Agile? ...and you can't use Piranha Strike with a rapier).

-- A rapier is a fine sword, but I would not attempt to specialize in it as a cleric (even one of Cayden).

(Versus the Ranger(Guide) dip, a Swashbuckler dip forfeits two skill points, Perception as class, and a 1/day +2/+2 swift-activated untyped combat buff.)


With normal Swashbuckler each killing blow or crit regains Panache, and Blue Scarf lasts 10 rounds. Blue Scarf also gets one free use/day. So generally Panache shouldn't be an issue at all with one feat to get a 3 point pool that regenerates.

Fencing Grace can be quite worthwhile on a build able to stack a solid DEX bonus, especially when such a build already rolls out a big serving of damage bonuses. Accuracy, AC and initiative all come out very much ahead. Whether it's worth it comes down to ability allocation and how the build operates; a Dual Talent Human can easily start with multiple high stats and maybe even a spare 13STR as well. Agile is always a sacrifice of weapon enhancement or a 1d6.

Numbers-wise, on a Cleric looking at getting huge damage bonuses, it might even work very well to have two weapons with finesse.

Shadow Lodge

BadBird wrote:
With normal Swashbuckler each killing blow or crit regains Panache, and Blue Scarf lasts 10 rounds. Blue Scarf also gets one free use/day. So generally Panache shouldn't be an issue at all with one feat to get a 3 point pool that regenerates. Accuracy, AC and initiative all come out very much ahead.
So now you're spending two feats to exploit the dip class? -- To use a sword that Piranha Strike won't work with, and for which the DEX-emphasis build is probably nerfing STR (and forfeiting Power Attack) to accommodate.
Quote:
Fencing Grace can be quite worthwhile on a build able to stack a solid DEX bonus, especially when such a build already rolls out a big serving of damage bonuses.

In an Unchained TWF rogue or full martial swashbuckler, it'll do the job; in a [dipping]1/cleric[X] it's going to be really rough.

Comparison:

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:12 or 14
INT:07
WIS+17 (race-bumped 15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array)
CHA:14 or 12

6th level: rang(1)/cler(5) with Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Combat Reflexes

-vs-

...? To realize the claim of "Accuracy, AC and initiative all come out very much ahead", how much DEX are we talking for a cleric?

Let's examine the STR+DEX couplet in the above example; my pair of 14s cost 10 build point. Alterations....

STR:12 (freed up three dropping 14>12)
DEX:15 (14>15, costing two, one point to spend elsewhere)

...that's att-1/dmg-2 from polearm without generating enough gain in dexterity to increase its bonus. We could raise the 15 at 4th, but then the 17 waiting in WIS is not getting the love that it needs.

STR:10
DEX:16

...finally init+1 and att+1 (with finesse) over the pair-of-14s arrangement. AC is +1 in a breastplate vs. four-mirror (but not any better, and eventually worse when DEX:14 build later goes mithril full-plate).

You might, at this point, be protesting that we could shave WIS and CHA to pay for the higher DEX...but why? How much of the build is non-caster? One level. Should we be sacking the caster part of the build in order to make the dip part work better? ...absolutely not.

~ ~ ~

Fencing Grace requires Weapon Finesse and WF(rapier). The only Swashbuckler archetype that grants both at 1st is Inspired Blade, which is the one you'd want in an INT-dumping dip-collecting build anyway because, weirdly, it gains INT bonus ("+1 minimum") in pinache even if one's build dumps that stat. (Paizo is almost begging you to be a barbarian who dumps both stats and dips swash to 2hPA a rapier.)

But cometh the annoyance: Inspired Blade's pinache is nerfed (you cannot recover it by dropping opponents, only by getting crits).

~ ~ ~

So, anyway, now we're a STR:10/DEX:16 finesse cleric whose melee damage has dropped from a polearm's d10+3 (+3 more with Power Attack) down to a d6+0 rapier awaiting Fencing Grace or Agile. You can get Fencing Grace as early as 1st via Swashbuckler[Inspired Blade] in a human, but then you won't be enjoying Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes at 1st level (and can't have them both until 5th). Any other Swashbuckler archetype and you must wait until 3rd to do more than d6+0 with your main weapon.

Lastly, while Swordmaster’s Flair is not horrendously expensive, it's not that cheap either for a low-level PC at 2500gp, and cannot legally be purchased by a PFS character until 13 fame is acquired (which will be shy of 3rd level with perfect acquisition). So let's say he does that, and takes Combat Reflexes at 3rd (which he more or less has to do now in order to exploit the massive early investment in the wondrous item). -- That means Improved Initiative has been shunted all the way to 5th in a build that is all-but-one caster.

Assuming d6+4 with a +1 magic weapon, the ~7.5 average damage of our Swordmaster’s Flair/Blue Scarf'ing reach-AoO-exploiter is worse than the ~8.5 achieved by the STR:14 build at character-creation with a 13gp bardiche.

This is the reason polearm "reach cleric" is a colored-blue option in the guides.

Quote:
Whether it's worth it comes down to ability allocation and how the build operates; a Dual Talent Human can easily start with multiple high stats and maybe even a spare 13STR as well.
Dual Talent forfeits the human's free feat and free skill (meaning that, as an INT:7 cleric he's only picking up *1* skill/level now...unless the player reallocates 6 build points to get INT up to 12...for *two*.
Quote:
Numbers-wise, on a Cleric looking at getting huge damage bonuses,
The bonuses are worse with no replacement for Power Attack. (Can't use Piranha Strike with a rapier.) Otherwise, either cleric build has the same buffs.
Quote:
...it might even work very well to have two weapons with finesse.

TWF'ing too? Where are these feats coming from in a near-fully-classed cleric played from first level?

While there will be creampuff mods here and there, PFS scenario authors tend not to coddle: The PCs will be exploring some cave or urban-scape with a few hours between each encounter, and limited uses/day builds will feel the pinch acutely. Try to hurry the pace so your buffs don't run out, and you blow your Stealth checks and Perception checks to notice traps.


Well, a couple quick tossed-together possibilities -

Fencing Grace Swashbuckler / Crusader Cleric of Cayden, Revelry Domain:
Dual Talent Human: 13STR, 15/17DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA

1Sb. +Weapon Finesse / Extra Panache
2CC. +Weapon Focus: Rapier
3CC. Fencing Grace
4CC. [+1DEX]
5CC. Combat Reflexes
6CC. +Shield Focus
7CC. Power Attack
8CC. [+1WIS]
9CC. ???

Early on, you play a straight rapier-and-buckler combatant with a tidy combat bonus from Favor. Medium armor, buckler, high DEX and Panache makes for strong survival skills. At 3 Fencing Grace kicks in, which brings damage up considerably. As DEX becomes 18 and then 20, and eventually 22, initiative, AC, damage and accuracy increase.

Favor and Good Hope (2/day or more with pearls, can Extend with a lesser rod, auto-extends at 9) combined with Power Attack means solid damage per strike. Initiative is naturally high, AC is very strong with a +4 shield bonus (Magic Vestment and Shield Focus on a buckler, basically free), a major DEX bonus, and typical armor. AoO's from reach are plentiful, and can even be combined with a parry AoO to double-strike an attacker.

Considering Fencing Grace doesn't work with TWF, I certainly wouldn't suggest doing both on the same build even if there were enough feats.

Any time a build starts handing out large, static combat bonuses, TWF becomes a more attractive option. An Evangelist of Cayden with a level of Urban Bloodrager could wield two Furious weapons with very substantial combat bonuses (many of which they share with the whole party). Using a combo like rapier and cestus or rapier and light shield avoids any spellcasting issues, and the nature of the build makes feats beyond just TWF and ITWF unnecessary (though certainly possible).

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
As DEX becomes 18 and then 20, and eventually 22, initiative, AC, damage and accuracy increase.

Are you raising DEX exclusively, or is that a belt's +2/+4/+6 enhancement progression?

-- This was for a PFS character; figure that the lion's share of playtime will be below 8th level. Prior to 7th, this crusader build's weapon emphasis cannot out-damage a first-level polearm fighter without buffing itself first. Essentially the entirely of the cleric side is being carved up:

* CHA sacked to 7 (hosebagging channeling and Diplomacy, the second-most used skill in the game)
* -20 move from lack of Travel domain w/all-day Longstrider (I wager that move50 tantalized the OP more than anything else)
* four odd stats at character creation leave wasted point-buy hanging
* WIS relegated to second-tier stat harms DCs and Perception checks, and loses timeliest access to bonus spells.
* ...and you'd need to devote a trait now to get Perception as class.
* One fewer spells per level (built-in Crusader penalty)

Quote:
Favor and Good Hope (2/day or more with pearls, can Extend with a lesser rod, auto-extends at 9) combined with Power Attack means solid damage per strike. Initiative is naturally high, AC is very strong with a +4 shield bonus (Magic Vestment and Shield Focus on a buckler, basically free), a major DEX bonus, and typical armor. AoO's from reach are plentiful, and can even be combined with a parry AoO to double-strike an attacker.

The ranger-dip build can cast all the same spells on a better grade of armor. Belt gets DEX to 16, topping off mithril full plate for a total AC+12 from armor+DEX alone versus a mithril breastplate topping at AC+11 (its +5 DEX limit will be unable to fully utilize DEX:22) or a mithril chainshirt's AC+10. The plate is more expensive, of course, but the character isn't buying a Swordmaster’s Flair.

The only armor that takes the DEX-maxer ahead is Celestial Armor (which, as a named item, cannot be further upgraded in PFS, whereas MFP is nonmagical special-material base armor awaiting enhancements).


I'm not going to play Gish Gallop, mate. 'Obviously I'm referring to a belt' ... 'stat dumping has been known to occur' ... 'waiting for level 3 for a major damage feature to come online isn't as scandalous as it seems' ... '+4 shield bonus, solid light or medium armor and high DEX has major advantages over just a full plate' ... and so on. Really, it's not a competition or some threat to you.

Shadow Lodge

But you're not making what the OP asked for.

-- You know what else is not what he asked for? The DEX:30-wakizashi-ITWF-who-dishes-out-42-apiece-in-seven-attacks guy I posted elsewhere a couple days ago.

He didn't have any cleric left at all. ;)


No, I was talking more in general as to the question of whether Fencing Grace can be a viable option. But I agree; the discussion has been derailed - or perhaps never really was much of a discussion in the first place, since the OP asked about a multiclass Cleric/Bard and didn't specify much beyond that, and hasn't returned since.

Scarab Sages

I think all sides kinda missed parts of what I was putting down, but I think Sir thugs a lot put the most thought into PFS considerations and the question of what I could do with a one level dip. Work got in the way of my returning.

The back and forth discussion taught me 1 thing - The bardic performance cleric isn't going to be what I want. One of my goals was to eliminate the need for CHA with an inquisition (reformation or conversion) instead of a domain if I went primary cleric, and everyone seemed to keep primary cleric but drop the abdication of CHA.

I agree that higher move speed was a big goal of the travel domain, and I'm left with a big question of Revelry vs Travel.

Good Hope looks great. I'm not sure why people keep suggesting putting it on a class with inspire and talking about them stacking though...they are both morale bonuses.

In addition, a lot of these cleric builds seem to assume multiple active round/level and minute/level buffs, which isn't assumed in PFS play. I don't often have prep time going into an encounter, i.e. I often don't 'know' I'm going into an encounter, and when I do, buff time has often hurt me.. I'm on my -14 with several characters in 9+ level play. I'm well aware of the environment of PFS play, and while useful, I never assume I have even minute/level buffs ready, let alone round/level.

Sir, Thugsalot, I'm not sure a few stray skill points and a 1/day buff is truly worth the ranger dip, but you have given me things to think about in that regard.

I did give several more details, domains I intended to take, features I liked, and the theme: Caiden Cleric whose motto is "Be Excellent to Each Other" and is influenced by bill and ted. I highly appreciate Sir Thugsalot's provision of a theme beyond just a stat block.

Ive actually got a theme in that vein now, mixing in my original theme, and I think its gonna work out great. Thanks everyone for your comments. Feel free to discuss more if you have ideas.


burkoJames wrote:

I think all sides kinda missed parts of what I was putting down, but I think Sir thugs a lot put the most thought into PFS considerations and the question of what I could do with a one level dip. Work got in the way of my returning.

The back and forth discussion taught me 1 thing - The bardic performance cleric isn't going to be what I want. One of my goals was to eliminate the need for CHA with an inquisition (reformation or conversion) instead of a domain if I went primary cleric, and everyone seemed to keep primary cleric but drop the abdication of CHA.

I agree that higher move speed was a big goal of the travel domain, and I'm left with a big question of Revelry vs Travel.

Good Hope looks great. I'm not sure why people keep suggesting putting it on a class with inspire and talking about them stacking though...they are both morale bonuses.

I'm not sure a few stray skill points and a 1/day buff is truly worth the ranger dip, but you have given me things to think about in that regard.

I did give several more details, domains I intended to take, features I liked, and the theme: Caiden Cleric whose motto is "Be Excellent to Each Other" and is influenced by bill and ted. I highly appreciate Sir Thugsalot's provision of a theme beyond just a stat block.

Ive actually got a theme in that vein now, mixing in my original theme, and I think its gonna work out great. Thanks everyone for your comments. Feel free to discuss more if you have ideas.

Allow me to Clarify your misunderstanding on the things you mentioned.

Most evangelist clerics only need a 10 CHA. So you would be eliminating CHA dependence.

Good Hope is a Moral bonus but the Bardic Performance is a a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. (It does grow with you up to a +3 @ 11) Which is the big draw of the Bardic performance.

Good hope covers more than the bardic performance on the moral to Fear and charm effects. Good Hope effects. Attack, Damage, Skill check, Ability Checks (including initiative checks)and ALL saving throws. (not just Fear and Charm saving throws.

So the 2 buffs go together very well especially once you get higher in level and you can Activate the performance as a Move or Swift action.

The Domain choice and your RP style add to the flavor of the character. You can RP it any way you want. I have seen Rogues who took 0 levels in the rogue class. I never let the class name sway how I will actually play the character as long as the mechanics align with what flavor I am trying to bring out.

Shadow Lodge

burkoJames wrote:
...I agree that higher move speed was a big goal of the travel domain, and I'm left with a big question of Revelry vs Travel.

Very definitely take Travel (+20 move and Fly on our list? Sign me up, Wallace.)

Revelry is end-loaded (you won't get to enjoy casting Good Hope until 7th, minimum).

-- I'd take the Strength domain as the second one after Travel, as Enlarge Person is a powerful accelerant in a Combat Expertise reach-cleric concept.

Quote:
In addition, a lot of these cleric builds seem to assume multiple active round/level and minute/level buffs, which isn't assumed in PFS play. I don't often have prep time going into an encounter
Agreed. My suspicion is that some respondents are used to higher level Scry and Fry games in which they have all the time in the word to prepare for an uber BBEG. PFS is at the opposite end, featuring low-level ambushes and so forth. If your AC isn't up before INIT, tough luck, cuz it's go-time.
Quote:
Sir, Thugsalot, I'm not sure a few stray skill points and a 1/day buff is truly worth the ranger dip, but you have given me things to think about in that regard.

There was more to it than that. -- I designed a chassis for a highly versatile "reach cleric" with room to spare for utilitarian feats such as the very underrated Quick Draw.

Ranger grants:

* all martial weapons (read: bardiche and longbow, neither of which are on the cleric's list)
* +2 Reflex save (most martial classes only bump Fortitude)
* ability to cast ranger spells off scrolls and wands
* [Guide] archetype's Ranger's Focus makes anybody your punching bag once/day without having to haul out a scroll of Instant Enemy.
* Perception, Stealth, and Survival become class skills

-- As far as I am concerned, all of that is worth far more than a free combat feat (which is essentially what fighter or swashbuckler would offer as a dip instead). Slayer and its archetypes are the closest martial matches to Ranger, but none of them are as good a single-level dip as Ranger[Guide].

Crunch the numbers for a +1 bardiche swat with two-hander Power Attack at BAB4 with Ranger's Focus running: d10+12 off STR14 and no barbarian rage in site. (And that's before Divine Favor, Enlarge, or anything else. Stir in Combat Reflexes to give you AoOs.

-- Compare that to the usual gas-tank-empty cleric antics: d8+0 light crossbow, d8+2 longbow or mace, etc. Don't be one of those guys. Have a nice weapon and make it work for you without a lot of effort (and it's especially good when it works on the enemy's turn when they're attacking you).
______

Alternative martial[1]/cleric[X] layout suggestions (as opposed to the one listed previously):

STR:12 (instead of 14)
DEX:14
CON:14 (instead of 12)
INT:07
WIS+17
CHA:14
...this human takes a skill point every level instead of HP, giving him 3/level with cleric despite trashed INT. Hoard cash for a Belt of Giant Strength purchased by 5th when Power Attack is taken (otherwise you don't qualify). Low-level combat utility suffers when you need it most (because you have very few spells). -1 to Swim/Climb places us in increasing peril of blowing DC5 checks (note: and that's including the martial dip a point into both skills.

Going out in a blaze of 17th-level glory as they deal the killing blow to the AP's final boss demon (who then explodes, taking the hero with him) -- that's what a divine warrior look forward to. What a fitting epitaph to last the ages on the quartzite headstone.

But: "Here lies poor Bill, drowned in an otyugh's manure lake" knife-gouged into a cheap plank in the paupers' cemetary? ...Nobody wants that.
______
STR:14
DEX:14
CON:14 (instead of 12)
INT:07
WIS+17
CHA:12 (instead of 14)
...a reasonable way to fund hitpoints in an INT-dumping, skill-point-leveling human cleric.
______
STR:14
DEX:14
CON:12
INT:10
WIS+15
CHA:14
...Using 14,14,14,13,12,10 pre-racial. INT has been wrested from 7 up to 10 as the cost of four build points, and those have to come the prior array's 15, which was our prime stat. So, 15>13, then race-bumped back to 15. What do we get out of it? +2 to Kn:Religion and Spellcraft, +1 skill/level, +1 hp/level (assuming HP now taken every level). But all spell DCs are -1, will save -1, Perception -1, Sense Motive -1. Expensive +4/+6 WIS increments of headband have a higher priority.
______
STR:14
DEX:13
CON:12 (or 14)
INT:12
WIS+15
CHA:14 (or 12)
...Using 14,14,13,13,12,12 pre-racial. Pure MAD. (You can pretty much put any of them anywhere so long as WIS stays 15 or better.) AC-1, REF-1, -1 AoO w/Combat Reflexes, Ranged attack-1. Not bad if you intend on plate armor asap (but that requires Heavy Armor Proficiency early in the build, fighter dip instead of ranger & sacrificing classed Perception, and flushing money when you trade the basic suit out for mithril later on).

Quote:
I highly appreciate Sir Thugsalot's provision of a theme beyond just a stat block.

<curtsies daintily in a pink tutu>

Grand Lodge

If you are willing to bend your concept a bit, you could go with Empyreal Lord - Halcamora (Wine godess) instead of Cayden Caillean.
You will lose travel domain, but gaining Growth subdomain is awesome for a reach build from 1 level up.


Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Crunch the numbers for a +1 bardiche swat with two-hander Power Attack at BAB4 with Ranger's Focus running: d10+12 off STR14 and no barbarian rage in site. (And that's before Divine Favor, Enlarge, or anything else. Stir in Combat Reflexes to give you AoOs.

-- Compare that to the usual gas-tank-empty cleric antics: d8+0 light crossbow, d8+2 longbow or mace, etc. Don't be one of those guys. Have a nice weapon and make it work for you without a lot of effort (and it's especially good when it works on the enemy's turn when they're attacking you).

If you are going to compare things, compare it to the actual cleric option with the same statblock? Dipping a full BAB class before going into cleric is still going to practically put you at 3/4th BAB progression, save for that BAB 4 is gotten at level 5, rather than level 6. Going from a d10 Bardiche to a d8 Longspear, and getting Power Attack as well (I mean, you're at level 5 in this case, a Cleric will also be able to pick it up) makes the comparison a d8+7, which will be d8+10 come level 6, not a paltry d8+2. Your accuracy will be the exact same due to power attack's increased penalty @ L5, save for that you've picked up a few extra skill points, a reflex save booster, and a once/day buff with Ranger's Focus.

You know what the travel domain cleric can do at that level, though? It can fly.

As a sidenote, since you want the inquisition powers from the Conversion Inquisition, you might want to investigate the Trade subdomain - it gives you a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive 3+Wis/day, which in total will be quite similar to using Wisdom > Charisma for some social skills. You won't have the 8th level power of a 1/day dominate, but then again, how Cayden-esque is it really to take control over somebody against their will?

-----
Another alternative, if you want the bardic music, being charisma-based, and having full casting, is looking into an Ocean's Echo Oracle - it's not PFS approved yet, so if this tickles your fancy, you might have to wait a bit. It does give you a nice 4+INT Skill Points / level, though, gives you the other two social skills (& perform) in class, and Oracles have a lot of things potentially going for them.

Shadow Lodge

Pounce wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Crunch the numbers for a +1 bardiche swat with two-hander Power Attack at BAB4 with Ranger's Focus running: d10+12 off STR14 and no barbarian rage in site. (And that's before Divine Favor, Enlarge, or anything else. Stir in Combat Reflexes to give you AoOs.

-- Compare that to the usual gas-tank-empty cleric antics: d8+0 light crossbow, d8+2 longbow or mace, etc. Don't be one of those guys. Have a nice weapon and make it work for you without a lot of effort (and it's especially good when it works on the enemy's turn when they're attacking you).

If you are going to compare things, compare it to the actual cleric option with the same statblock?
What/whose "actual cleric" are you referring to?
Quote:
Dipping a full BAB class before going into cleric is still going to practically put you at 3/4th BAB progression, save for that BAB 4 is gotten at level 5, rather than level 6. Going from a d10 Bardiche to a d8 Longspear, and getting Power Attack as well (I mean, you're at level 5 in this case, a Cleric will also be able to pick it up) makes the comparison a d8+7, which will be d8+10 come level 6, not a paltry d8+2.

d8+2 referred to the inexperienced player's shield cleric hauling out his mace. That's why I wrote: "Don't be one of those guys".

The bardiche is dmg ~+1 with wider threat-range over the longspear. Doesn't seem like much, but it racks up when you're forcing a lot of AoOs.

Quote:
You know what the travel domain cleric can do at that level, though? It can fly.
Well, without the Fly *skill* and points to put in it, the spell is mainly for getting-over-the-chasm-full-of-nope, not Boba Fett antics.
Quote:
As a sidenote, since you want the inquisition powers...

The OP or someone else was interested in that; my build didn't include it.


Sir Thugsalot has a reasonable build for a battle cleric. Personally, if I was interested in building a striker I probably wouldn't use a cleric chasis, but if that is what was wanted, his build is reasonable.

If I was making a cleric, I'd probably be looking at either support or control as my primary role. The reach build is perfectly suitable for that, especially the support role, but I wouldn't want to dip anything, and I'd be perfectly satisfied with a 1d8+3 or +6 (with power attack) that a cleric with a 14 STR would get with a longspear. Since I'd be only planning on making attacks via AoO, at least in the first few rounds of combat, spending the standard actions on spells, domain powers or other abilities (I particularly like evangelist cleric and inspire courage is a pretty obvious go to round 1 standard at low levels, higher levels it is move and a standard spell.)

While spells is a limited resource at low levels, usually you have enough to get through a day without too much issue, especially if you have well chosen domain or channeling powers to go with it. And of course, dipping just increases the amount of time you don't have enough spells.

With a reach cleric you want enough damage that the bad guys have to take your threatened area seriously, but you certainly don't need a whole lot more than that.

I also think that the 'Ranger Focus' of the guide is a little bit of a trap for a dipping cleric. With a one a day focus, you really want to save it for the 'big bad' but that is also when you hopefully are throwing out your best spells, and unless your party is extremely well coordinated (unlikely in PFS) chances are pretty good the main enemy isn't going to be provoking much, if at all from you. So I think you would end up wasting it, either using it against a foe where it helped, but wasn't really necessary, activating it against the actual most significant target but not getting much use out of it, or ending up not using it at all. I think I'd prefer a regular ranger with favored enemy humanoid(human) and take my chances.


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Pounce wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Crunch the numbers for a +1 bardiche swat with two-hander Power Attack at BAB4 with Ranger's Focus running: d10+12 off STR14 and no barbarian rage in site. (And that's before Divine Favor, Enlarge, or anything else. Stir in Combat Reflexes to give you AoOs.

-- Compare that to the usual gas-tank-empty cleric antics: d8+0 light crossbow, d8+2 longbow or mace, etc. Don't be one of those guys. Have a nice weapon and make it work for you without a lot of effort (and it's especially good when it works on the enemy's turn when they're attacking you).

If you are going to compare things, compare it to the actual cleric option with the same statblock?
What/whose "actual cleric" are you referring to?
Quote:
Dipping a full BAB class before going into cleric is still going to practically put you at 3/4th BAB progression, save for that BAB 4 is gotten at level 5, rather than level 6. Going from a d10 Bardiche to a d8 Longspear, and getting Power Attack as well (I mean, you're at level 5 in this case, a Cleric will also be able to pick it up) makes the comparison a d8+7, which will be d8+10 come level 6, not a paltry d8+2.

d8+2 referred to the inexperienced player's shield cleric hauling out his mace. That's why I wrote: "Don't be one of those guys".

The bardiche is dmg ~+1 with wider threat-range over the longspear. Doesn't seem like much, but it racks up when you're forcing a lot of AoOs.

Quote:
You know what the travel domain cleric can do at that level, though? It can fly.
Well, without the Fly *skill* and points to put in it, the spell is mainly for getting-over-the-chasm-full-of-nope, not Boba Fett antics.
Quote:
As a sidenote, since you want the inquisition powers...
The OP or someone else was interested in that; my build didn't include it.

Sorry, I probably misread your tone, I hope I didn't come off as too bothersome!

I got the impression that the mace cleric was what a pure cleric of equivalent attributes and level would be doing, and thus thought the comparison seemed quite unreasonable. Hence, my main point was that in order to achieve decent martial competency, a dip into a martial class isn't necessarily going to make that much of a difference, even with the same statblock as the ones you suggested above - simply emphasising that Cleric 5 is also a reasonable alternative to Guide Ranger 1 / Cleric 4.

And yeah, the last part with the Trade subdomain was aimed at the OP, since I figure that it might have been of some interest.

Scarab Sages

Pounce wrote:

As a sidenote, since you want the inquisition powers from the Conversion Inquisition, you might want to investigate the Trade subdomain - it gives you a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive 3+Wis/day, which in total will be quite similar to using Wisdom > Charisma for some social skills. You won't have the 8th level power of a 1/day dominate, but then again, how Cayden-esque is it really to take control over somebody against their will?

Which is why ive switched to the reformation inquisition. Its far more in theme. ;)

I'm proably going with (at first level, with the 2nd level rebuild ill make a martial my first level):

Human Cleric of Cayden Cailean

Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 17
Cha: 7

Domains: Reformation, Travel

Feats: Combat Reflexes

Skills: Diplomacy, Perform (Strings), Know (Local)

Traits: World Traveler (Know Local), Talented (Perform (Strings))

Theme: Weary Nirmathi soldier who never wanted to go to war, never wanted to be a part of the never ending feud between Nirmathi and Multhune but abandoned his own desires to study music to help his friends and family, starts wondering who is looking out for him while drinking, hears Cayden's voice, and is lead onto a path of promoting peace through reasoned words...and Music

I realize my character wont ever be excellent at perform. That works with the bill and ted influences I wanted. I don't get the inspire, or the good hope. But I am ok with that, because I think the ideas I had were too spread out and all over to work very well.

Thanks for the Help!

Grand Lodge

A few options for the OP. I'm sure you have picked up that this is an under-optimized build but let's see what we can do to make it work.

Bard advice

Pick a combat oriented archetype. The best would have been Dawnflower dervish but it is locked to another deity

Dervish Dancer give you better action economy and move speed.

Archaeologist give you a buff to combine with fate's favored but it overlaps with a common spell.

Detective give a small buff to your team.

Arcane Duelist gives you a free feat that won't scale and rallying cry.

Savage Skald give you a some temp HP on a crit.

Sorrowsoul a bigger bonus but the flavor is all wrong.

Other bard-like options

Guiding Blade:

Daring Teamwork shares a teamwork feat with the group. This could be precise strike later retrained to outflank. You also get all the swashbuckler stuff and it is pretty thematic with you god. And now you can get Blade and Tankard Style for free.

This will give you a viable dex build outflank and menacing will give you good accuracy but you will be depending on spells to do damage. Parry and repose helps you get more attacks to keep the DPS up. Swordmaster's Flair will help with AOOs as described above.

TWF > drink a reduce person as your first attack > attack is a good strategy here. Or beer in the face attack them when blind.

Freebooter

Freebooter’s Bane this is better than the bard's ability because it is a move action for an unlimited amount of time. Also the buff is untyped so you don't get replaced with an ioun stone in a few levels.

Here you get some extra wands to use. Better action economy. But less flavor.

EDIT : looks like my post was just a little too late.

Shadow Lodge

Pounce wrote:
Sorry, I probably misread your tone, I hope I didn't come off as too bothersome!

No sweat.

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