Class Feedback: The Adept


Homebrew


Link.

The class is meant to be halfway between a ninja, a monk, and the adepts from Shadowrun.

I've tried to make it compete with but not outright overshadow the Operative and Soldier.


IonutRO wrote:

Link.

The class is meant to be halfway between a ninja, a monk, and the adepts from Shadowrun.

I've tried to make it compete with but not outright overshadow the Operative and Soldier.

Not bad. Still needs some work, but not bad. Why are your tables jumbled with your text, by the way?


EltonJ wrote:
Not bad. Still needs some work, but not bad. Why are your tables jumbled with your text, by the way?

That shouldn't be happening. You might be using an incompatible browser, like Firefox, which doesn't support multi-column CSS.

EDIT: And if any text appears to have gone off the screen, then reloading the page should fix it, that's a rendering issue when the page first loads.


Feels like monk update ratter then adept class


khadgar567 wrote:
Feels like monk update ratter then adept class

It is a monk update and has nothing to do with the 3.X NPC adept class, it's named after the Shadowrun Adepts, which are basically D&D Monks but more.

Liberty's Edge

Well, giving it four attacks makes the damage a bit too high. At that rate you average the same attack bonus as a Soldier or Solarian and have somewhat higher DPR than the Solarian which is the current gold standard. Add in that they have better skill bonuses than a Solarian, and get cool abilities at a similar rate, and I think the damage is a little high.

This is most easily solved by just dropping their unarmed damage to 10d6, or around there. Maybe 11d6 if you want to push the damage a little, but 12d6 is way too much. Multiattack Rend also needs to go unless your damage goes way further down than that.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Well, giving it four attacks makes the damage a bit too high. At that rate you average the same attack bonus as a Soldier or Solarian and have somewhat higher DPR than the Solarian which is the current gold standard. Add in that they have better skill bonuses than a Solarian, and get cool abilities at a similar rate, and I think the damage is a little high.

This is most easily solved by just dropping their unarmed damage to 10d6, or around there. Maybe 11d6 if you want to push the damage a little, but 12d6 is way too much. Multiattack Rend also needs to go unless your damage goes way further down than that.

Even if they land all four attacks, their average damage with weapons is actually lower than Solarian's or a Soldier's because they can only use Basic Melee or Small Arms to onslaught/flurry

While they can get slightly higher damage than Solarians with their unarmed strikes, there's still only a 0.41% chance of them landing all four hits in order to deal that higher damage, it's a nice boon when it hits but it won't happen very often.

I'll compare all three classes at level 20, assuming 28 STR, against a Goblin Monark's KAC.

Adepts with gravity spears will deal 41-101 per hit;
W/ a 20.25% chance of landing 2 hits and dealing 82-202 per round;
W/ a 0.91% chance of landing 3 hits and dealing 123-303 per round;
W/ a 0.41% chance of landing 4 hits and dealing 164-404 per round.

Adepts with unarmed strikes will deal 51-111 per hit;
W/ a 20.25% chance of landing 2 hits and dealing 102-222 per round;
W/ a 0.91% chance of landing 3 hits and dealing 153-333 per round;
W/ a 0.41% chance of landing 4 hits and dealing 204-444 per round.

Solarians with any 20th level crystal will deal 47-137 per hit;
W/ a 25% chance of landing 2 hits and dealing 94-274 per round;
W/ a 1.25% chance of landing 3 hits and dealing 141-411 per round.

Soldiers with dimensional slice curve blades and melee striker will deal 45-153 per hit;
W/ a 20.25% chance of landing 2 hits and dealing 90-306 per round;
W/ a 0.91% chance of landing 3 hits and dealing 135-459 per round.

So outsider of really rare circumstances where all four of an Adept's attacks will hit, their damage potential is lower than that of Solarians and Soldiers.

As for Multiattack Rend, yeah, I'll remove that.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I was specifically talking unarmed strikes, hence suggesting lowering their damage a bit as a solution.

And let's actually calculate DPR, shall we? That's a better barometer than ranges and the percentages of getting them. After all, if you do enough more damage a small amount of the time, it's still a problem.

So, let's examine this.

Assuming AC 35 (I don't have the Goblin Monark stats, so I'm basically guessing here, but this remains true at basically all levels given equivalent accuracy, which all three have):

All can have a +30 to hit, +24 for full attacks (+25 for Solarian).

Average damage for the Soldier is doing 12d10+33, which averages 99 points per hit.

With an exactly 50% hit rate, that nets him an average damage of 153.49 or so.

The Solarian does better with Plasma Sheath, making for 18d6+43 which averages 106 points per hit.

With a better to-hit rate and better damage, he'll average 169.6 or so.

Your Adept does 12d6+39 which averages 81 points per hit.

That makes his average damage per round 170.1 or so.

And the Solarian has to use Cha for Resolve making him MAD and probably only Str 26 at this point, which lowers his DPR by a fair bit comparatively. While your Adept gets their best stat for Resolve, whatever it is.

This isn't hard to fix, but it is a real issue.


I think you need to pick primary ability scores. I feel classes need to have direction. Even with someone doesn't like the direction you took the class (like people raging about Cha based Solarians). Saying "Wisdom is the key ability and these other abilities are nice" I think would give the class a purpose and structure. I think of any of classes that have so many.

Skills at "6 + Int" are usually reserved for classes with a lower BAB bonus. Like Operatives and Envoys. My 2 cents.


JetSetRadio wrote:
Skills at "6 + Int" are usually reserved for classes with a lower BAB bonus. Like Operatives and Envoys. My 2 cents.

I don't think there are enough classes yet to have much of a precedent. Envoy and Operative both have 8 skills per level and the only class with 6 per level is the spell casting mystic. Pathfinder has some precedent for full BAB classes with 6 skills per level (ranger, slayer, or vigilante with the right specialization) so it's possible we could get official classes with full BAB and 6 skills per level in the future. With that being said, a class with full BAB and the extra utility of two skills per level should probably be a clear step behind soldier and solarian in terms of combat ability.


JetSetRadio wrote:
I think you need to pick primary ability scores. I feel classes need to have direction.

Yeah, I ended up making them choose between Wisdom and Charisma.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, I was specifically talking unarmed strikes, hence suggesting lowering their damage a bit as a solution.

And let's actually calculate DPR, shall we? That's a better barometer than ranges and the percentages of getting them. After all, if you do enough more damage a small amount of the time, it's still a problem.

So, let's examine this.

Assuming AC 35 (I don't have the Goblin Monark stats, so I'm basically guessing here, but this remains true at basically all levels given equivalent accuracy, which all three have):

All can have a +30 to hit, +24 for full attacks (+25 for Solarian).

Average damage for the Soldier is doing 12d10+33, which averages 99 points per hit.

With an exactly 50% hit rate, that nets him an average damage of 153.49 or so.

The Solarian does better with Plasma Sheath, making for 18d6+43 which averages 106 points per hit.

With a better to-hit rate and better damage, he'll average 169.6 or so.

Your Adept does 12d6+39 which averages 81 points per hit.

That makes his average damage per round 170.1 or so.

And the Solarian has to use Cha for Resolve making him MAD and probably only Str 26 at this point, which lowers his DPR by a fair bit comparatively. While your Adept gets their best stat for Resolve, whatever it is.

This isn't hard to fix, but it is a real issue.

I really don't think them having less than 1% of a chance of dealing more damage than Solarians justifies doing far less damage the other 99% of the time.

Liberty's Edge

IonutRO wrote:
Yeah, I ended up making them choose between Wisdom and Charisma.

Solid call.

IonutRO wrote:
I really don't think them having less than 1% of a chance of dealing more damage than Solarians justifies doing far less damage the other 99% of the time.

DPR is pretty important. Besides which, I'm not suggesting dropping their damage precipitously, just by 1d6 or so.


IonutRO wrote:

Link.

The class is meant to be halfway between a ninja, a monk, and the adepts from Shadowrun.

I've tried to make it compete with but not outright overshadow the Operative and Soldier.

Man. I totally missed this thread when I decided to take a shot at this class myself. Your design is a lot more straightforward than what I am going for, but I like it.

I do think your damage output is too high, though. This class is also weirdly good at skills AND combat; I worry that this class strictly mechanically dominates the existing two full BAB classes given that Soldier gets essentially 0 skill support and Solarian only gets 4+int skill ranks and relatively more limited skill options.

As a note: my version is shaping up to be a 3/4 BaB class and is a little more comparable in class structure to the Operative.


Oh! Also: how does the Vesk racial ability interact with the Adept's Ki strike? Are they getting an extra 10 damage a hit at level 20?

Also, your statistical analysis is somewhat suspect. You should be looking at the expected value of the class's damage each round. Remember: when the Adept makes all their attacks, the Adapt has a better chance of landing at least two hits than a comparable soldier in addition to having an infinitely better chance of landing all 4.

It is perhaps okay that the Adept can outdamage a Soldier or Solarian with their full attack if their standard action attacks falls behind those classes by enough. Without checking the math yet, I suspect theirthe expected value of their damage is much higher though.

Dark Archive

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Oh! Also: how does the Vesk racial ability interact with the Adept's Ki strike? Are they getting an extra 10 damage a hit at level 20?

Also, your statistical analysis is somewhat suspect. You should be looking at the expected value of the class's damage each round. Remember: when the Adept makes all their attacks, the Adapt has a better chance of landing at least two hits than a comparable soldier in addition to having an infinitely better chance of landing all 4.

It is perhaps okay that the Adept can outdamage a Soldier or Solarian with their full attack if their standard action attacks falls behind those classes by enough. Without checking the math yet, I suspect theirthe expected value of their damage is much higher though.

Give them a +1 bonus to damage? That's my suggestion.


IonutRO wrote:

Link.

The class is meant to be halfway between a ninja, a monk, and the adepts from Shadowrun.

I've tried to make it compete with but not outright overshadow the Operative and Soldier.

Looks like this link is broken now, do you have a new one? I've been looking ALL OVER for a monk class for my game.

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