What action(s) does it take to reload a 2-handed weapon

[tim stempihar]

I'm having a disagreement with my GM regarding reloading 2 handed weapons.

My version:

Rules state that reloading a cartridge for a weapon you hold in 2 hands takes a move action.

My Gm's version:

In order to reload a cartridge for a 2 handed weapon you first need to shift/let go off your grip (swift) so you have a free hand, then you need to reload (Move) and then you need to grab your grip again (swift)

He is very adamant about this and thinks the only way to prove he is incorrect is from a dev telling him otherwise.

In my opinion he is compleatly off base as nothing in the rules hints that his version is correct, but I might be wrong in my interpretation as well.

[Doomed Hero]

Shifting grip isn't a swift action. I don't know where he got that idea, but he's wrong.

[HammerJack]

Doomed Hero wrote:

Shifting grip isn't a swift action. I don't know where he got that idea, but he's wrong.

In pathfinder, it isn't. In Starfinder, it is.

[Benjamin Medrano]

Doomed Hero wrote:

Shifting grip isn't a swift action. I don't know where he got that idea, but he's wrong.

Wrong system, Doomed. This is the Starfinder forum.

[Torbyne]

conducting an action includes all parts of the action needed for it. This "double swift + Move" is the same as saying you need to take a swift action to aim if you want to use your BAB in an attack roll. Or rather, if you are removing the movement of the PCs hands from the action than what about it actually takes time to do?

[Velisruna]

It doesn't say reloading requires a free hand so I would assume that means you could use one hand that is holding the gun to reload it as part of the reload action (which expressly also doesn't require a spare action to pull out ammo). I think this could be more of a problem for small arms if you have another item in your off hand but it seems intent is that reloading just a move action and you don't worry about handedness so long as you have enough to wield the gun.

[HammerJack]

I might assume that the move action was it for reload, but I am a little uncertain because of the Efficient Bandolier on page 226, which places ammunition or batteries into your hand, not your weapon, at the cost of a swift action.

It's possible that the Efficient Bandolier actually slows down your reloading, in exchange for allowing you to carry 5 bulk worth of ammunition without affecting your carrying capacity, but it seems a little off.

EDIT: I just checked. The bandolier is weird. The reload action in the combat section specifically states that the move action includes grabbing the ammo. Ignore the above.

[Voss]

Torbyne wrote:

conducting an action includes all parts of the action needed for it. This "double swift + Move" is the same as saying you need to take a swift action to aim if you want to use your BAB in an attack roll. Or rather, if you are removing the movement of the PCs hands from the action than what about it actually takes time to do?

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree.

Reload (p247) states that it includes grabbing readily available ammo, but that does imply needing a hand free to grab with.

Two swifts seems inordinately punishing, but they could be split up, but that means not taking a full attack the following round.

I could definitely see a case for needing a swift to switch grips, and a move to reload.

@Hammerjack- yeah. The bandolier should probably be the 'Inefficient Bandolier.' Though you can pull a full 'bulk' of ammo out as a swift.
Still good for storage (though it also needs clarification if you can put the 'wrong type' of ammo in a compartment, as I don't know how it could tell if a particular battery is for advanced melee or rifles)

[Doomed Hero]

Benjamin Medrano wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

Shifting grip isn't a swift action. I don't know where he got that idea, but he's wrong.

Wrong system, Doomed. This is the Starfinder forum.

D'oh!

That is going to take some time to get used to.

[Voss]

The annoying part is this isn't particularly balanced by anything. Many laser rifles, for example, won't ever care past level one. You just aren't going to burn through 40 shots in a single fight very often. But the dinky little utility scattergun (popgun) is barely going to last two rounds.

[TheWalkingLost]

Nothing in the Reload Action refers to the weapons orientation. Wielding or not wielding is irrelevant, you can reload it in both states as a Move Action.

"Change Grip" pg247 is meant to change weapons states from wielding to not wielding,"Wielding Weapons" pg243, for the purposes of freeing a hand to not interact with the weapon. i.e. open a door, turn on life support, urinate, etc. (Or more likely use a glove weapon.)

[Torbyne]

Voss wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

conducting an action includes all parts of the action needed for it. This "double swift + Move" is the same as saying you need to take a swift action to aim if you want to use your BAB in an attack roll. Or rather, if you are removing the movement of the PCs hands from the action than what about it actually takes time to do?

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree.

Reload (p247) states that it includes grabbing readily available ammo, but that does imply needing a hand free to grab with.

Two swifts seems inordinately punishing, but they could be split up, but that means not taking a full attack the following round.

I could definitely see a case for needing a swift to switch grips, and a move to reload.

@Hammerjack- yeah. The bandolier should probably be the 'Inefficient Bandolier.' Though you can pull a full 'bulk' of ammo out as a swift.
Still good for storage (though it also needs clarification if you can put the 'wrong type' of ammo in a compartment, as I don't know how it could tell if a particular battery is for advanced melee or rifles)

This is the same game company that had a multi-tiered cost chart for one handed or two handed firearms, with or without feats and class features that changed reloading speeds. they know how its been handled, if there was any intent for reloading to take more than a movement action they would have specified. if anything the advanced longarms seen in Starfinder are a direct port of how advanced firearms were handled in Pathfinder and the ease of reloading a longarm is in stark contrast to the full round action to reload a black powder weapon.

[EC Gamer Guy]

In SF you can "downgrade" a move or a standard action to a swift. So the initial sequence (2xswift + Move) makes reloading a full round action.

Voss wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

conducting an action includes all parts of the action needed for it. This "double swift + Move" is the same as saying you need to take a swift action to aim if you want to use your BAB in an attack roll. Or rather, if you are removing the movement of the PCs hands from the action than what about it actually takes time to do?

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree.

Reload (p247) states that it includes grabbing readily available ammo, but that does imply needing a hand free to grab with.

Two swifts seems inordinately punishing, but they could be split up, but that means not taking a full attack the following round.

I could definitely see a case for needing a swift to switch grips, and a move to reload.

@Hammerjack- yeah. The bandolier should probably be the 'Inefficient Bandolier.' Though you can pull a full 'bulk' of ammo out as a swift.
Still good for storage (though it also needs clarification if you can put the 'wrong type' of ammo in a compartment, as I don't know how it could tell if a particular battery is for advanced melee or rifles)

[Voss]

Torbyne wrote:

This is the same game company that had a multi-tiered cost chart for one handed or two handed firearms, with or without feats and class features that changed reloading speeds. they know how its been handled, if there was any intent for reloading to take more than a movement action they would have specified. if anything the advanced longarms seen in Starfinder are a direct port of how advanced firearms were handled in Pathfinder and the ease of reloading a longarm is in stark contrast to the full round action to reload a black powder weapon.

I honestly don't see that as relevant. How it was handled in PF is as relevant as how Gygax handled it in first edition.

I can see someone arguing that you should just ignore the implication of a free hand in the reload action, but I can also see requiring it and thus (both) the switch grips actions. Everything else is from outside _this_ ruleset and irrelevant.

Unfortunately Starfinder has a lot of fuzzy writing and areas of the rules that only make sense in terms of pure game mechanics. This one leans toward the former, as it isn't explicit enough.

[Torbyne]

Voss wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

This is the same game company that had a multi-tiered cost chart for one handed or two handed firearms, with or without feats and class features that changed reloading speeds. they know how its been handled, if there was any intent for reloading to take more than a movement action they would have specified. if anything the advanced longarms seen in Starfinder are a direct port of how advanced firearms were handled in Pathfinder and the ease of reloading a longarm is in stark contrast to the full round action to reload a black powder weapon.

I honestly don't see that as relevant. How it was handled in PF is as relevant as how Gygax handled it in first edition.

I can see someone arguing that you should just ignore the implication of a free hand in the reload action, but I can also see requiring it and thus (both) the switch grips actions. Everything else is from outside _this_ ruleset and irrelevant.

Unfortunately Starfinder has a lot of fuzzy writing and areas of the rules that only make sense in terms of pure game mechanics. This one leans toward the former, as it isn't explicit enough.

Well, the Starfinder rulebook on page 247 under the Move Actions list gives the rules for reloading as, "Unless stated otherwise, reloading is a move action that includes grabbing ammunition you have readily available. Some weapons require different actions to reload; see the weapon's description." So i dont see how we can even have this conversation unless someone is remembering how reloading firearms was done in other games and is assuming that those rules somehow apply to Starfinder. Otherwise the full process of reloading, moving hands, pulling things out of pouches/pockets/bandoliers, ejecting spent batteries or magazines, inserting fresh ones, racking a slide or charging handle or slide release or hitting the power button... whatever, that is all just a move action unless the specific weapon entry says it takes more than that. I dont see any long arms that say they need extra swift actions to reload so they dont need to worry about shifting grips, those rules dont interact with reloading.