Feign Harmlessness = Flatfooted?


Rules Questions


If you use the Bluff skill to successfully feign harmlessness, does it make that foe flatfooted against you? They dont see you as a threat, perhaps even want to protect you and put you behind them. Does that mean their defenses are down? Its not explicit in the RAW but it certainly seems that way...
Thoughts?

AtD

Silver Crusade

Basically sounds exactly like feinting, from they way you describe it.


That might work ONCE, before combat with you begins. In combat, after you've already wounded them, no.


The situation is a Succubus pretending to be a damsel in distress when the PCs walk in on her and her acolytes. They go out of their way to save her from being sacrificed only to have her turn on them once they do.
So yeah I was wondering if they would be flat footed against her first attack.

pfsrd said wrote:


From the Bluff skill
Feign Harmlessness

It’s often useful to attempt to convince your enemies you are no threat to them.

Check: You attempt to convince your target you are harmless through your actions and posture. If you are at least one size category smaller than your target and have taken no effective offensive actions that your target has seen, you gain a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. Even if you have proven yourself capable of dealing damage, an effort to present your previous success as a one-time fluke takes only a –10 penalty on the check.

Action: Taking steps to appear harmless requires a full-round action, though a GM may require more involved Bluff attempts to take longer.

Retry? You can attempt to feign harmlessness to the same target again, but each previous failed check increases the DC to convince your target by 5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.

AtD


its more of a lie saying she is a damsel in distress since she is also saying she is not with them and she is capture by those acolyte, i think it would be more a bluff check to lie not to feign harmlessness.

for me feign harmlessness is more for the guy who has some mean to attack someone with weapon and has protection, since they look dangerous, while the succubus change shaping into a damsel in distress already look harmless. do a commoner need to make a bluff check to look harmless, even if they have some mean to hurt the party?
i don't think so, since he already look harmless to an adventurer even if he got a dagger (which i can safely say every commoner will have a self defence weapon, a dagger, short sword, quarterstaff or something similar).


If her first attack is before combat begins and the players have not acted it will work. If combat has started and the players have acted they are not flat footed. Just because someone is harmless does not mean you ignore them. You are also watching them to see if they are going to do anything that will affect your actions, or maybe even require your action. Often a player will move in to protect a helpless target from other threats. How can you do this if you are not paying attention to the helpless target to see when they are in danger?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

It does what it says it does (and does not do what it doesn't say it does).

The Concordance

To get them flat footed, you'll want a surprise round. You just need the bluff skill...

Ultimate Intrigue: Other Uses of Bluff wrote:
Surprise: Not every surprise round begins with an ambush from unseen assailants. If a character or several characters unexpectedly attack in the midst of a conversation or other normal activity, their victims might be surprised.

Feign Harmlessness can help guarantee conversation with the PCs.


Convincing someone you are harmless doesn't have any direct mechanical effects.

A good GM will, upon a successful check by a PC, have the creature react appropriately to someone they didn't consider a threat. For example, an intelligent opponent would focus their efforts someone else. Some creature might choose to focus on a harmless creature though, for example anything attacking for 'food' would quite likely go for the weak.

PCs can of course react however they like. At most you can tell them that the creature looks harmless. I expect most PCs would at that point focus their attention on that creature, as we all know that anything the GM tells you looks harmless is certainly the most dangerous thing around :)


Dave Justus wrote:


PCs can of course react however they like. At most you can tell them that the creature looks harmless. I expect most PCs would at that point focus their attention on that creature, as we all know that anything the GM tells you looks harmless is certainly the most dangerous thing around :)

To reiterate, the situation is that a succubus has set a scene for the heroes.

Using alter self, she has transformed herself into a slave girl about to be sacrificed by (her own) cult, knowing that the heroes will focus on "saving" her. What I am wondering is will they be flatfooted when she reveals her deception with a dagger in the back? This use of bluff seems to imply they might be.

AtD


Ahpook The Destroyer wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:


PCs can of course react however they like. At most you can tell them that the creature looks harmless. I expect most PCs would at that point focus their attention on that creature, as we all know that anything the GM tells you looks harmless is certainly the most dangerous thing around :)

To reiterate, the situation is that a succubus has set a scene for the heroes.

Using alter self, she has transformed herself into a slave girl about to be sacrificed by (her own) cult, knowing that the heroes will focus on "saving" her. What I am wondering is will they be flatfooted when she reveals her deception with a dagger in the back? This use of bluff seems to imply they might be.

AtD

Silly succubus.

Don't use a dagger in the back. Use acrobatics in the sack.

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