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Can you put weapon enhancements on a buckler?
Under normal circumstances, you cannot perform a shield bash with a buckler. You cannot put shield spikes on a buckler. Buckler does not appear in the weapon table.
However, the Upsetting Shield Style allows you to shield bash with a buckler. Also, in the rules for enhancing shields, it just says that you may enhance a shield separately as a weapon.
Could I make a +1 Cruel buckler, for example?
No.
the Upsetting Shield Style allows you to shield bash with a buckler
That does not alter the buckler itself though. It's still not a weapon as such.
in the rules for enhancing shields, it just says that you may enhance a shield separately as a weapon
Yup. But the specific rule for buckler shields overrides the general rule for shields. So: no dice.
Agreed with VRMH.
Though Upsetting Style allows you to do things with a buckler you normally couldn't do, it doesn't allow you to enhance the buckler as though it were a weapon.
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But is there a specific rule for bucklers? That's what I'm trying to figure out. There's a specific rule that you can't shield bash, and there's a specific rule that you can't put shield spikes on them, but the rules are silent on enhancing them (from what I've seen). In most situations, it wouldn't do anything, but for someone who can wield a buckler, it would. The best (and likely correct) argument against it is that bucklers don't appear in the weapon table.
Next question is the Skirnir Magus archetype, which can enhance a weapon or a shield with arcane pool. Can a Skirnir wielding a buckler with Upsetting Shield Style enhance their buckler as a weapon with arcane pool?
There are no specific rules regarding enhancing bucklers as weapons.
Typically there is no point, but there was never any rule preventing it.
No.
the Upsetting Shield Style allows you to shield bash with a bucklerThat does not alter the buckler itself though. It's still not a weapon as such.
in the rules for enhancing shields, it just says that you may enhance a shield separately as a weaponYup. But the specific rule for buckler shields overrides the general rule for shields. So: no dice.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Please provide RAW that modifies this general rule by specifically excluding bucklers.
But is there a specific rule for bucklers? That's what I'm trying to figure out. There's a specific rule that you can't shield bash, and there's a specific rule that you can't put shield spikes on them, but the rules are silent on enhancing them (from what I've seen). In most situations, it wouldn't do anything, but for someone who can wield a buckler, it would. The best (and likely correct) argument against it is that bucklers don't appear in the weapon table.
Next question is the Skirnir Magus archetype, which can enhance a weapon or a shield with arcane pool. Can a Skirnir wielding a buckler with Upsetting Shield Style enhance their buckler as a weapon with arcane pool?
The idea is that bucklers aren't weapons, even though nothing specifically says that there is nothing in the general rules that indicates you should ever treat them as weapons or give them the ability to be enhanced.
And as you state, bucklers aren't in the weapons table. And there's nothing to say they are weapons anywhere. And Pathfinder usually works by telling you what you can do, not what you can't do.
As far as the Skirnir Magus question, the answer to your question is the same as whether or not you can usually enhance a buckler as a weapon using normal magical enhancement means.
I would say no.
I beg to differ:There are no specific rules regarding enhancing bucklers as weapons.
Typically there is no point, but there was never any rule preventing it.
You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield.
the specific rule for buckler shields overrides the general rule for shields.A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.Please provide RAW that modifies this general rule by specifically excluding bucklers.
There's a rule that states you can't put a spike on a buckler; see above.
The description of the buckler states: "You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.", so that's another rule.Oddly enough though, there's no rule against making a buckler a Throwing Shield. So I have to retract my earlier statement: a Throwing Buckler is a weapon, and can take weapon enhancements.
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...Is there a rule that you can't enchant an improvised weapon? Usually you wouldn't want to, but there are plenty of options to use certain improvised weapons as actual weapons
There is not a rule about whether you can or can't enchant an improvised weapon, however Adventurer's Armory 2 contains a gloves that will let you apply their enhancement bonus to any improvised weapon you pick up.
What makes the buckler tricky is that there is a rule that you can enhance shields as weapons, and that rule does not exclude bucklers. Likewise, the other rules being cited (buckler's can't shield bash, bucklers can't have shield spikes) don't say bucklers can't be enhanced.
Re Throwing Shield - Then would the buckler only be considered a ranged weapon for enhancements?
Re Throwing Shield - Then would the buckler only be considered a ranged weapon for enhancements?
Yes. It's only in the weapon table under "(exotic) Ranged Weapons". But your original example of a +1 Cruel Buckler would work; the Cruel enhancement isn't limited to melee weapons.
The idea is that bucklers aren't weapons, even though nothing specifically says that there is nothing in the general rules that indicates you should ever treat them as weapons or give them the ability to be enhanced.But is there a specific rule for bucklers? That's what I'm trying to figure out. There's a specific rule that you can't shield bash, and there's a specific rule that you can't put shield spikes on them, but the rules are silent on enhancing them (from what I've seen). In most situations, it wouldn't do anything, but for someone who can wield a buckler, it would. The best (and likely correct) argument against it is that bucklers don't appear in the weapon table.
Next question is the Skirnir Magus archetype, which can enhance a weapon or a shield with arcane pool. Can a Skirnir wielding a buckler with Upsetting Shield Style enhance their buckler as a weapon with arcane pool?
You were always capable of treating them as weapons. They just followed the improvised weapon rules while doing so.
And as you state, bucklers aren't in the weapons table. And there's nothing to say they are weapons anywhere. And Pathfinder usually works by telling you what you can do, not what you can't do.
Pathfinder tells me exactly how to treat improvised weapons. I take a -4 penalty on my attack rolls.
As far as the Skirnir Magus question, the answer to your question is the same as whether or not you can usually enhance a buckler as a weapon using normal magical enhancement means.
I would say no.
The answer has always been yes, with a penalty to attack rolls unless you invested in mitigating the penalty.
There's a rule that states you can't put a spike on a buckler; see above.
The description of the buckler states: "You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.", so that's another rule.Oddly enough though, there's no rule against making a buckler a Throwing Shield. So I have to retract my earlier statement: a Throwing Buckler is a weapon, and can take weapon enhancements.
There are limits placed on what you can do with a buckler.
Enchanting as a weapon was not one of those limits.
...Is there a rule that you can't enchant an improvised weapon? Usually you wouldn't want to, but there are plenty of options to use certain improvised weapons as actual weapons
That's not how the rules work. The rules (typically) tell you what you can do, not what you can't.
You can't enchant improvised weapons.
You could, however, make a fighter with shield gauntlet style and upsetting style with style mastery and have everything you want.
Well if you go by what the Dev's have said, shield gauntlet style doesn't work as written as gauntlets aren't actually meant to be weapons... So I'd be wary of building anything with that feat until they put out the FAQ they've been talking about. :P
PS: The feat SHOULD work with a spiked gauntlet but who knows WHAT will happen to the feat after a FAQ happens...
...Is there a rule that you can't enchant an improvised weapon? Usually you wouldn't want to, but there are plenty of options to use certain improvised weapons as actual weapons
That's not how the rules work. The rules (typically) tell you what you can do, not what you can't.
You can't enchant improvised weapons.
You can enchant any weapon. Improvised or not.
There is no RAW stating weapons with the Improvised property cannot be enchanted.
In addition, all shields have specific language permitting them to be enchanted as weapons.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Seems simple to me. You can enchant a buckler as a weapon the same as any shield (If it isn't excluded in text specifically, and well, is still a shield), you just can't use it as such without proper feats or abilities.
At least that's what I'm gathering from RAW, and I typically assume RAI is the thing that allows something to actually function in a sensible manner, for better or worse. Be kinda asinine to dedicate numerous feats to an unenchantable weapon (style). I'm sure there are worse feat (trees), but most of of what was in Armor and Weapon Master's Handbook actually work.
Weapons don't gave an improvised quality. Nor could you make one into a masterwork version. So enchantment is very against RAW...Is there a rule that you can't enchant an improvised weapon? Usually you wouldn't want to, but there are plenty of options to use certain improvised weapons as actual weapons
That's not how the rules work. The rules (typically) tell you what you can do, not what you can't.
You can't enchant improvised weapons.
You can enchant any weapon. Improvised or not.
There is no RAW stating weapons with the Improvised property cannot be enchanted.
In addition, all shields have specific language permitting them to be enchanted as weapons.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
- Improvised weapons are defined as a sub-category under weapons, with specific rules changes. The general rules for enchanting weapons are not among those changed. Specifically: the only change made to the general weapons rules for the sub-category improvised is that anyone using an improvised weapon takes a -4 non-proficiency penalty.
- Improvised is a weapon quality that does appear on certain Paizo published weapons. I would suggest more closely reading the weapon tables.
- Anything can be made masterwork. Shields include specific language stating that, if masterwork, they may be enchanted as weapons.
Until this FAQ request is answered there will be disagreement on that point.
Weapons don't gave an improvised quality. Nor could you make one into a masterwork version. So enchantment is very against RAW
If that were true, then we wouldn't have a +1 tankard but for some reason we DO have one: so there MUST be a way to enchant improvised weapons... [see Cailean Fighting Tankard]
Weapons don't gave an improvised quality. Nor could you make one into a masterwork version. So enchantment is very against RAWIf that were true, then we wouldn't have a +1 tankard but for some reason we DO have one: so there MUST be a way to enchant improvised weapons... [see Cailean Fighting Tankard]
Tankards are not the only available example.
A lot of things "officially" exist because someone was enamored with a clever idea, and didn't consider how their little bit of cleverness will be pounced upon by rules lawyers seeking any sort of precedent, nor felt honorbound to point out that the idea should not be used as a precedent. In my game I think I would allow it, but would expect the player to fully reveal what he expects to push the affect to.
This is Rules though so.....
Prefacing this with the admission that realism/simulationism has no rightful place in Pathfinder rules:
In use, the buckler has much more in common with parrying weapons than it does with classic shields. Properly used, a buckler is effectively punching an attack, preferably at its inception, both in where the weapon is held and also as early as possible, before the attack has built up maximum kinetic energy. A buckler disrupts attacks since it really hasn't the mass to absorb or significantly deflect most attacks. If I were to homerule parrying, I would include it in the dodge category and not in the shield.. Note that I would also want to allow the shields themselves to have both active (dodge) bonuses, as well as passive (shield) bonuses. I would avoid having a shield block/parry being an action, unless you want combat to be very slow.
For my inevitable tangential bit of nonsense, I would rule that most two handed weapons should be able to be used as a parrying weapon, trading attack bonus for dodge bonus, perhaps with a damage penalty, or damage dice size reduction. This would not require the combat expertise feat when any weapon designated as "Parrying" was being wielded. I would point out that any full-BAB combatant should have Combat Expertise free of charge, since balancing aggressive and defensive postures is integral to ANY combat.
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Some interesting points so far. I'd say FAQ the question, but the Improvised Weapon FAQ may address a lot of the issues, and it has a lot more FAQ attention at the moment.
Questions on Shield Gauntlet Style... again thinking of Skirnir Magus...
A Skirnir can enhance a shield with their arcane pool as a shield or as a weapon, along with their regular weapon. Shield Gauntlet Style does not make the gauntlet a shield, so it would not be able to be enhanced with shield enhancements, correct?
Skirnir Magus can cast spells while wearing a shield during Spell Combat (eventually, at 8th level). If that shield is a buckler, then they do not lose the shield bonus when they do so. Since Shield Gauntlet Style tells you the gauntlet is "is treated as a buckler for the purpose of using other feats and abilities (though you are also considered to have a free hand)," that means it should work fine with the Skirnir's Spell Combat, and you should retain your shield bonus, correct?
In terms of the original build I was thinking of, that might work. I put it together including a Cruel Buckler, and then realized based on other current threads that might not work.
Or I might just abandon the whole thing and go Thunder and Fang. So many feats needed, though.
A lot of things "officially" exist because someone was enamored with a clever idea, and didn't consider how their little bit of cleverness will be pounced upon by rules lawyers seeking any sort of precedent, nor felt honorbound to point out that the idea should not be used as a precedent.
If it was a one off item, then you'd have a point but there is a pattern of it. If it's not meant to be allowed then that's an explanation for the 1st or second but what about the 5th or 6th? What number is the cut off for a precedent/ pattern of conduct? How many different books do they have to show up in?
You'd think that is a type of item wasn't allowed, the Dev's would have sent an e-mail over to say as much to the editors of those that were "enamored with a clever idea" and let them know...
Blackwaltzomega: A pathfinder buckler is FAR different than the traditional real life buckler that's wielded in a hand. A pathfinder buckler is an oversized bracer or dinner plate taped to an arm while a real life one covered your fist while you held the crossbar in your hand. A pathfinder buckler would be the hardest of pathfinder shields to deal any damage with: it has a smaller area and less control as the hand can't direct it.
A buckler bash would be less an actual shield bash and more a spinning back fist. It actually makes sense that it's never been able to shield bash, considering the thematics behind most shield bashing related augments (Shield Slam, Shield Snag, Siegebreaker Archetype, some others I'm sure) are more about plowing into your enemy with your shield as a brace (Shield Brace lol) or smacking them with a strong discombobulatory weight. A buckler is just a slightly more defensive gauntlet.
I'll hit the FAQ, but it's likely just gonna be a GM fiat thing, since from what I've heard, the best you'll get for splatbooks is developer intent. RAW and RAI nothing super prevents it, so a home game should be ok (Most reasonable GMs will see the enchantment's necessity for a return on investment), but good luck in PFS. They ban things like Warrior Spirit and a feat that makes tower shields strong at level 7 with a 7-8 feat investment, so...