Hello, all. Apologies if I missed a recent and similar thread.
I've been tinkering with a character idea (this one is a Speaker for the Past and/or Ancestors shaman, but I'm usually building at least one or two characters as a mild compulsion most days) for a possible Adventure Path game.
It occurred to me while building this character that I assume that certain bad things are going to inevitably happen in the game that are completely unavoidable, and I often get snagged in character creation wasting resources and trying to prep for them. It gets kind of unfun after a while. I was wondering if these are realistic fears in general, or if it would take a special kind of sadistic DM to do most of them. I've never actually faced a DM who was less than fair and friendly, but these thoughts still gnaw at me in Pathfinder.
Also note that these are all early game (levels 1-4) fears for me. I've never seen a higher level than that.
Fears such as:
Having a pack animal which is not an animal companion: I expect that a mundane light horse or a mule with no bonus hit dice or other abilities which is used to carry equipment and/or treasure is going to be eaten by wolves or killed in a landslide at the first, most inconvenient opportunity possible, as will the mounts of any party members.
Having a familiar: For pretty much the same reasons as having pack animals/mounts, except predators and the elements get replaced by lucky arrows or a ray spell.
Trying to anticipate useful utility spells for the day: Any seemingly good or versatile choice can and will become an emphatically bad waste.
Wearing anything heavier than light armor or not keeping a very light load: Like being stuck with 20 or less movement speed or worse than -2 ACP is a signed death warrant, even in a party that already contains dwarves or other slower types.
Dumping any stat at all: As if the world can smell a sub-10 ability score on me and will assuredly find a way to punish it severely in some way, regardless of party composition and specializations.
Not having at least 1 rank in every single class skill, and several outside skills: In a similar vein as the above, fearing my fighter will have to act as the party academic, or that the wizard will have to complete an entire obstacle course while silenced.
Leaving home without a sawback dagger and a bar of soap: What am I, some kind of savage?
I guess the actual advice portion of this is to ask if these are reasonable fears or not (maybe using the whole of PFS organized play as a standard for comparison?), and to ask if there are any tricks to overcome these difficulties before WBL catches up and allows one all of the magic utility items they need.
Cheers and much obliged, I know this is kind of rambling and subjective.
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I would say yes, but you knew that already.
The question is, are you paranoid enough?
For the pets, ask your GM to be nice about it. If they're a good GM, your pets will only be killed in the event of stupid behaviour ("Oh look a cave. I'm just gonna leave my mule in this wolf infested woods for 4 days because I need to stop and rest after every encounter and can't fit the mule in the cave").
For your spells, either stop playing prepared casters or just put utility spells on scrolls. Alternatively, be like me. I only ever prepare utility spells if I'm 100% sure it's needed ("Alright, today we enter the fortress by jumping of a cliff into it using the plans we acquired last session. You got the feather fall, right?"). I'm mostly fine without em.
Armour... yeah. I don't like being slow either. In general you shouldn't need a heavy load (how much are you carrying?) and only wear heavy armour if y'ou need it. That said, as long as your party doesn't ditch you, heavy armour is hilariously fun (20 AC at level one has to be cheating").
Dump stats are fun. Working past challenges is fun. Playing a perfect character is boring. If your GM exploits it to the point where it isn't fun, talk to them like an adult. If they won't listen, the usual advice of leaving the group applies.
If you coordinate skills with your party, you can cover the bases. You really just need perception, spellcraft, and a few knowledges. Climb, swim, and acrobatics are all helpful, but if one person has them and a length of rope you're good in most situations. In general, just make sure the only overlap you have is perception. Shouldn't be that bad unless you're all non skill optimized fighters.
Is that why you have heavy load problems? Carrying lots of gear is fine. As long as you spend enough on essentials (weapons, armour, food, etc), you're good. Don't overweight yourself and everything is great. Not a problem here.
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Carrying capacity: There's always the Ant Haul spell. A human or half-orc shaman could use their favored class bonus to add this spell to their list (you need to be 3rd lvl).
Utility spells: One possiblity is to leave a spell slot or two empty, and spend 10 min filling it when the need arises.
Familiars: Keep them safe in you backpack.
Skills: You can't do everything. If you have X skill points per level, perhaps pick X-1 skills to be good at, and use the remaining point each level to take a single rank in something else.
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Is that all you are worried about? Seriously my contingency kit is currently 3 pages long and growing. I agree completely with Daw. That said if not dying is causing you to not have fun, feel free to die. There is no such thing as paranoid enough
Dump stats are fun. Working past challenges is fun. Playing a perfect character is boring. If your GM exploits it to the point where it isn't fun, talk to them like an adult. If they won't listen, the usual advice of leaving the group applies.
If you coordinate skills with your party, you can cover the bases. You really just need perception, spellcraft, and a few knowledges. Climb, swim, and acrobatics are all helpful, but if one person has them and a length of rope you're good in most situations. In general, just make sure the only overlap you have is perception. Shouldn't be that bad unless you're all non skill optimized fighters.
Is that why you have heavy load problems? Carrying lots of gear is fine. As long as you spend enough on essentials (weapons, armour, food, etc), you're good. Don't overweight yourself and everything is great. Not a problem here.
I guess I might have a different mental starting-point with dump stats. Role-playing a character with one or two significant handicaps can absolutely be fun, but if I've created them as a relatively well-rounded and well-adjusted individual (outside of the necessary insanity of going adventuring), I expect them to have equally mundane (+0) secondary stats.
As for weight, yeah, I'd say my characters try to carry enough to be self-sufficient without regards for what the hypothetical party is already carrying. Their own food, water, rope, healing kit, map/writing materials, cooking tools (sans that big clunky pot), pouches of smaller things, personal effects, etc.
My current caster shaman idea has it worse, possessing only an effective strength rating of 12 with MW backpack included- after light armor, a buckler, clothing, a few pieces of sling ammo, and empty bags, they're already at 42/43 for a light load. No other essentials included yet. If I drop their wisdom they can have maybe a 13 or 14 in strength, so that they'll only get encumbered after picking up ~10 pounds of stuff outside of themselves.
I'll probably do that. 16 Wis is still enough to start with and cast max-level spells with by end-game, in case a headband gets sundered or stolen in a midnight teleport ambush.
Maybe my problem in these respects is that I don't think of it as a "party" game when I'm building the character? Not in terms of being a team player- I like being helpful. I just assume my characters have been wilderness loners up to the point of meeting the party, and should expect and be prepared to operate like that again on short notice.
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I once had a player say, "If my character is wearing full plate, I expect the GM to drop him in a river at the first opportunity." And this player was a newbie, so I was his only GM and I had never done anything like that. I told him that if his character were fighting on a drawbridge, an enemy would try to bullrush him into the moat, but that is my limit.
Let me go over Grozug's list:
Having a pack animal which is not an animal companion: If the party camps in an area with wolves, I will roll a possible nighttime encounter. If wolves appear, they will go for the pack animals. If the person on watch does not notice (the party did set up a watch, right?) or is slow to react, the wolves will kill at least one.
Having a familiar: Ordinarily, I view a familiar as a class ability rather than as a creature I could target, so I forget to deliberately target it. Most foes would rather target the obviously dangerous wizard, anyways. Of course, if the wizard is struck by a fireball, the familiar is burnt, too. And if the wizard sends his familiar out to deliver a touch attack to an enemy, both the enemy will notice the familiar and react violently.
Trying to anticipate useful utility spells for the day: I design the adventure before your spellcaster prepares his daily spells. I am not going to rewrite my encounter just to play mindgames against your spellcaster.
Wearing anything heavier than light armor or not keeping a very light load: I get to be paranoid here. If an encounter relies on the party running away, I expect some character to decide to stand and fight, regardless of how obvious I make the overwhelming strength of the foe. Running speed does not matter when nobody runs. Nevertheless, in a game session six months ago, the last surviving bad guy tried running away and the result was a comedy of different running speeds among the party members. Running can be useful to catch people. (see Never String Out the Party.)
Dumping any stat at all: Surely dumping a stat means that you want to roleplay having a handicap, and I should give the character plenty of opportunities for that roleplaying, right? But roleplay usually leads to embarrassment rather than punishment.
Not having at least 1 rank in every single class skill, and several outside skills: At 1st level, a character does not have enough skill points to put in a rank in every class skill. At 4th level, your character risks looking like a 1st-level noob if he neglected a class skill. Once again, embarrassment rather than punishment.
Leaving home without a sawback dagger and a bar of soap: Heh heh heh. I would be crueler to players who forget to roleplay packing daily necessities than I am to players who roleplay dumped stats and lack of skills. Alas, I usually forget to ask, "Who remembered to wash today? With soap?" before unleashing the swarm of biting insects on them.
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Pack animals: If these are eaten by wolves, better them than you. And having a pack animal allows you to carry all the stuff you might need to cover yourself for emergencies (like a couple of hundred feet of knotted rope) without loading yourself down with so much stuff you lose speed.
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For me the fix was to get into board games. In board games you just die, die a lot, lose over and over. After awhile you realize it's more important to concentrate on having fun than surviving or winning.
Pack animals: they are the solution to encumbrance you mention. So use them. You can also just buy "<insert class> kit" which covers most needs. Remember there are other players too, they should have something
Skills: more fun to focus on a few and be good at those, cause other players will be good at their few skills. Except perception, everyone needs that.
Speed: think of this more as offense than defense. As they say "speed kills" Don't worry about being too slow to get away, desire to be fast enough to chase them down. Use a pack animal so you're not weighed down, get mithral medium armor when you can afford it.
Utility spells: take Scribe Scroll, make a scroll every day, they are cheap and easy to create even when travelling. To store them get a handy haversack: in case any are needed during combat they are only a move action away.
stat dumping: if 8 is the lowest you are good. penalties are already built in to your rolls, there is not much a GM can do to "punish" you for an 8.
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Is that all you are worried about? Seriously my contingency kit is currently 3 pages long and growing. I agree completely with Daw. That said if not dying is causing you to not have fun, feel free to die. There is no such thing as paranoid enough
Out of curiosity, mind posting that contingency kit for reference?
@topic: For your concerns about utility spells, remember that prepared casters can choose to leave slots open during their daily preparations. Later in the day, you can take 15 minutes to prepare a spell into an open slot to cover that situational thing you didn't know about at the start of the day.
Also, if you're not paranoid about it already - add swarms to your paranoia list. Make sure to pack a few vials of alchemist's fire or other AoE options to deal with them. Right now, I'm running a dungeon campaign which recently hit level 6, and my players are finally realizing that they need to do this after fleeing from multiple swarm encounters far below their APL. (Why? Because the barbarian one-shotting CR appropriate enemies doesn't help against diminutive swarms immune to weapon damage.)
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Swarms have been duly noted... yikes.
And I think I'm slowly making peace with the risks of horses finally- especially if one is war-trained and given freely by a recently-discovered racial trait!
Now to balance its inventory next...
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Just don't leave anything irreplaceable on the horse, in case it's carried off by a roc.
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If this is how you want to play, do so. You are a lot less paranoid than many player I have seen. What I would recommend is that you solve these issues with in character decisions/solutions because that make the game better as a whole. Below I will give some examples.
Lots of low str casters have the barbarian carry most of there stuff. Just keep the in combat item on you, like scrolls, wands and rods. Eventually, get an extra dimensional space and you will be fine. This lets you interact with the party strong guy more often. Now you need each other to be successful.
Familiar satchel and invisibility (for scouting) should keep your familiar safe most of the time. Care for your familiar, treat it as a friend and ally.
Buy lots of scrolls and do lots of research and recon. Be a boy scout, be prepared, look for scroll in new towns, and be curious.
UMD longstrider. "You guy walk too fast, the next druid I find I'm getting a wand from so I'm not always falling behind"
1 Rank in a skill is nice for the first few levels then you just have a bunch of garbage skills that don't do anything. However if you pick up helpful (halfling trait) and have your familiar aid you are providing a +6 to many rolls. This makes that plan more useful.
"Leaving home without a sawback dagger and a bar of soap" I have 30+ "won't leave home without" RP items. These provide role play opportunities and are worth it just for that. Each item gives you a chance to help a person or set something up with them. Also part of your aid another can be having the right tool for the job! Plus you had to call the barbarian over to help because they are actually holding the tool you need.
If you want to be paranoid like many of my characters are this guide, though made for pfs, will help.
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One thing you may not have experienced much of at those levels is saving-throws. Their incidence will ramp up considerably past 6th and 7th.I've been tinkering with a character idea (this one is a Speaker for the Past and/or Ancestors shaman...
<snip> ...I was wondering if these are realistic fears in general, or if it would take a special kind of sadistic DM to do most of them. I've never actually faced a DM who was less than fair and friendly, but these thoughts still gnaw at me in Pathfinder.
Also note that these are all early game (levels 1-4) fears for me. I've never seen a higher level than that....
Having a pack animal which is not an animal companionDon't sweat it; the first or second magical item most "weak" PCs buy is a haversack or quiver.
Having a familiar For pretty much the same reasons as having pack animals/mounts, except predators and the elements get replaced by lucky arrows or a ray spell.
There are items hither and yon (can't remember their names) that let your familiar easily hide. Familiar also receive Improved Evasion, so they're difficult to with collateral damage.
You can also get an Imp later on via Improved Familiar.
Trying to anticipate useful utility spells for the day:250gp equals ten cheap scrolls in your haversack.
Wearing anything heavier than light armor or not keeping a very light load: Like being stuck with 20 or less movement speed or worse than -2 ACP is a signed death warrant, even in a party that already contains dwarves or other slower types.
Shamans have medium armor proficiency.
Note: Not only is Fly on a shaman's spell list, the class itself kinda hints that you should be using it, as Fly is also on the class skill list.
Dumping any stat at all: As if the world can smell a sub-10 ability score on me and will assuredly find a way to punish it severely in some way, regardless of party composition and specializations.
Shamans suffer MAD (unless they dump STR and avoid melee entirely, which is a luxury often denied).
Try the 15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt pre-racial array and employ a "reach cleric" fighting strategy (see the guides floating around). A polearm and Combat Reflexes (put the 14 in DEX) solves a lot of problems.
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If we're talking about Shamans, a Human could have:
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Toughness
Weapon: Longspear
You can still train Diplomacy and have a skill of lvl+2, or you could be a Half-Orc with the Burning Assurance alternate racial trait and have lvl+4 Diplomacy.
Is that all you are worried about? Seriously my contingency kit is currently 3 pages long and growing. I agree completely with Daw. That said if not dying is causing you to not have fun, feel free to die. There is no such thing as paranoid enough
I would love to get a copy of this as well.
It occurred to me while building this character that I assume that certain bad things are going to inevitably happen in the game that are completely unavoidable, and I often get snagged in character creation wasting resources and trying to prep for them. It gets kind of unfun after a while. I was wondering if these are realistic fears in general, or if it would take a special kind of sadistic DM to do most of them. I've never actually faced a DM who was less than fair and friendly, but these thoughts still gnaw at me in Pathfinder.
Also note that these are all early game (levels 1-4) fears for me. I've never seen a higher level than that.
Fears such as:
If you are in any kind of module or adventure path (i.e. published stuff), the GM script does not target player's fun, with the exception of some specific horror style gaming. Since you usually know the general kind of game, you can avoid horror if you want.
On to the fears:
Having a pack animal which is not an animal companion:
You only brought one? Don't you plan for having an extra for all the loot you will be bringing back? Spares are cheap.
Having a familiar:
Most GMs ignore familiars until they can't. [Some players too.] If the familiar interacts in combat in any aggressive manner, it becomes a valid target. If the familiar only provides party buffs or healing, they may be targeted, but at much lower priority.
Trying to anticipate useful utility spells for the day:
Prepared casters don't need to fill up in the morning. Leave slots open for filling at need with the needed spell later in the day.
Spontaneous casters get fewer spells known, so utilities should be no more than 1/3 known spells, and preferably affect the entire party or last a long time.Also, note the shadow spells. They let you simulate other spells of lower level, with the decision at casting time. These are more mid game, but add versatility. Summons can also add versatility. Many summons cast spells (or SLAs) that can help.
Wearing anything heavier than light armor or not keeping a very light load:
If you are slow, you are likely small. You can ride a mount that is medium. The mount is likely fast enough.
If you are stuck as a slow member in the party, you should think about staying farther from the combat, and be ready to run quickly.When you get access to flight, you generally solve the mobility issue.
Dumping any stat at all:
This is the price of being outstanding elsewhere.
Don't play MAD characters if you can't handle any dumping.Most characters have some dump stat. A -1 penalty is nothing. A -2 can be a problem if it hurts the concept. A -3 is role play gold, but can be difficult to play.
Not having at least 1 rank in every single class skill, and several outside skills:
If you are playing an Int based character, you can have every class skill quickly. Otherwise, this is an unreasonable expectation.
I am currently playing a character with 1 point each level. And he needs to sink points in some craft skills. Its hard, but it leads to role playing. For example: "Hey wizard..., don't you know something about these creatures?"If you are limited is available skill points, place them in skills you have good stats for. Skip low stat skills, even if in class.
Also, remember, an Int headband gets max ranks in a skill, allowing you to fake it. Research what the masterwork tool is for the skills you have, and invest in them. The any-tool is good for many skills.
Leaving home without a sawback dagger and a bar of soap: What am I, some kind of savage?
Sometimes you are a savage. Maybe you have low charisma because you never use soap on principal.
Stuff for existing, beyond food is rarely paid any attention. Even food is ignored in higher levels.Combat usable stuff is another matter. Cheap stuff like arrows and sling bullets are generally not tracked. Special stuff like cold iron arrows should be tracked. Alchemical stuff should be tracked.
As a noob of an adventurer, you don't know what you need. Therefore a few obvious things at character creation. Add stuff as you have encounters, so that should you have the same kind of encounter you will have something better. Don't go overboard, as you are in a party and they should have some of this stuff also.
PFS has special consideration, since party makeup is random, so you need to plan for self reliance early.
I guess the actual advice portion of this is to ask if these are reasonable fears or not (maybe using the whole of PFS organized play as a standard for comparison?), and to ask if there are any tricks to overcome these difficulties before WBL catches up and allows one all of the magic utility items they need.
Cheers and much obliged, I know this is kind of rambling and subjective.
Some of the fears are reasonable and some not. Some depend on who's in your party. Some depend on where you adventure.
Being more paranoid makes your character survive longer, but if it robs the fun from the game, it is too much. The point is to have fun. You can have fun, even with total party wipes, if that is the kind of game you want. [Hey, there are some who like this, as it lets them try character concepts more frequently.]In the end, it comes down to this:
Do you have fun?
/cevah
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I really like sacks because they are cheap, hold a lot, and can be dropped in combat as a free action.
Thank you, everyone, for your advice. It's put things in perspective for me somewhat. I think I have fun when things are going well during play, but I do feel bogged down when I let the minutiae get to me in between game posts.
I ended up dropping Strength to 11 while downsizing my equipment with in-character justifications. This character isn't intending to get embroiled in a full adventure, and whatever's about to happen in the city of Korvosa during his cultural exchange visit will take him by surprise.
His tentative stats are 11/16/14/10/17/12 (20 point-buy plus a house rule floating +2, since this isn't actually a PFS game- just an adventure path PbP among friends). Feats are Great Fortitude, and Scribe Scroll. With +Wis to all Int skills from a Hex, I'm hoping he can be a crafter and/or smart-guy as well as a support specialist and emergency healer.
I'm also spending almost all of my WBL for being 2nd-level (which I wasn't aware I had at first) on a Minor Bag of Holding. At the same time, I liberated my shaman from the sling I was insisting he'd use, reasoning that a Shoanti could have encountered and picked up a light crossbow for hunting at some point in his travels. Curse shortbows not being simple like D&D5E did...
I'm still unwilling to put him in medium armor, but I know the trade-off/sacrifice I'm making with that. In a few levels, darkleaf or mithral something-or-other will be in order. Until then, I'll just live like a squishy, fearful wizard.
Assuming the game happens, that is. I haven't actually heard anything definitive from the rest of the likely players yet.
Keep the sling. It is free, as are stones. Bullets are better ammo, but cost money. OK not to use it when the crossbow is available, but slings can be easier to disguise.
/cevah
Hi. I am a GM. I have Scent:Player which triggers my (Su):Terrorise. I'd give you a head start but this is a surprise round.
....though depends on the GM. We dont play much with encumbrance unless you are trying to bring that bronze statue home nor with food rations the same way we assume everyone remembers to breathe.
I assume as a GM that all players have the adventurer packs or class specific packs, if not I'll give it to them. We're here to have a fun session, not penalise inventory management (baldurs gate/rpgs/arpgs im looking at you).
A note on the dumping stat. Dont dump Charisma and then try to woo the faerie realm queen, dont dump strength then try to wrestle Conan or dump dex and attempt to jump that bottomless chasm, dont have your character solve the mystery with a 6 int. Then we'll all be friends.
Having a pack animal which is not an animal companion: I expect that a mundane light horse or a mule with no bonus hit dice or other abilities which is used to carry equipment and/or treasure is going to be eaten by wolves or killed in a landslide at the first, most inconvenient opportunity possible, as will the mounts of any party members.
Having a familiar: For pretty much the same reasons as having pack animals/mounts, except predators and the elements get replaced by lucky arrows or a ray spell.
s.Dumping any stat at all: As if the world can smell a sub-10 ability score on me and will assuredly find a way to punish it severely in some...
Yes, I do target pack animals if it's a animal "neutral hungry" attack. Sure.
Familiars? I only target if used as a long range scout or of course- if the familiar is used to attack.
Some dump stats are OK. Dump str down to 8 as a spellcaster? Well, i will check your carry weight, while I dont for the 20 str fighter.
Cha? Well, if you STFU and let the guy with high CHA and high social skills do the talking, you'll be fine. Start mouthing off to important NPCs with a low Cha and you are in trouble.
Int of 8? Sure. Int of 6 and start acting up? Out of my game please.
Low Con or Wis? You're just walking dead.
Low dex carries it's own penalties.
Some observations.
Not every GM is just out to punish players for every conceivable weakness; not even those who quote long lists of gotchas. Actually those are usually warning you of pitfalls of inappropriate or stupid design more than anything.
Question to OP though, if you are so bothered by little losses and fails that you created this post.....
What is it about the game that you enjoy?
Hmm, that's a good point on the sling. He'll wear it as a belt until a very rainy day comes.
Escapism is a big part of liking the game for me, though that's a fairly standard point of enjoyment from what I understand of other players.
Role-playing is also significant, and while I can (and do) RP outside of games easily, the structure of an actual game system feels like it keeps the world or at least player actions more grounded than in a totally free-form thread or chat room. I mean, if you'll ignore for a moment high-level magic and all that.
I guess small losses worry me because they add up to big losses eventually. I've never experienced character death, since all of the games I've played tend to peter out before anyone dies. It's the nagging inevitability of that event that scares me, I guess.
Character death (or at least a big enough, permanent failure) can definitely be role-played well, but my lizard-brain still really doesn't want the character to end.
Gotcha. Character deaths can be actually fairly easy to take for roleplayer scenarios with a good GM, where the death has meaning to it. The little losses are a lot easier to take if you consider them "paying your dues".