Hitting a Creative Wall


Advice


So, here's the thing. My campaign has players ranging from 16th to 18th level with Mythic Tiers ranging from 4th to 8th (some of the guys don't get to play as often as the others do because of the distance they have to travel).

But here's the deal. The original concept of the game was supposed to be based on intrigue and political maneuvering among the players and various noble houses. But as the campaign has progressed I find myself running them on more and more adventures where it's the monster of the week, though they did just finish a several adventure story arc where they defeated a cabal of liches that have been hounding them.

But now they're such high level I'm not sure what do with them now. They "tower above" all the noble NPCs in power, so I just don't know how to put the intrigue and political machinations back in.

So, any ideas folks? I've sort of ground to a halt here as to what to do next.


Hell seems like the obvious answer, no one does politics like a devil and the archfiends have stats now, they're pretty powerful in their own right.

Hey sorry for the derail but how did the battle with the cabal go? I believe I was in the thread where-in you planned the fight.


Alternatively to going straight to hell, bring hell to *gameworld here*

The NPCs, seeing themselves hopelessly outclassed by ye olde PCs and their powers, get their bargaining bowls out and entreat with the local great entities to level the playing field. Maybe one house goes to Hell, another the Fey Courts, and another to the High Heavens, or Great Old Ones. Whatever, point is they make their deals, pay their prices, and change the game. The landscape (political and probably literal) is now radically shifted, you have the perfect excuse to ratchet up your NPCs to acceptable levels, and you can run wild in envisioning what happens to a Fey bargained kingdom or something like that (With Hell, there's always just filing the serial numbers of Cheliax).


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Hell seems like the obvious answer, no one does politics like a devil and the archfiends have stats now, they're pretty powerful in their own right.

Hey sorry for the derail but how did the battle with the cabal go? I believe I was in the thread where-in you planned the fight.

The Cabal adventure, which was stretched into a two part finale, came out well. The Bard and the Rogue both died gruesome deaths, but the party had the resources to have them raised from the dead.

They got rid of several of them by destroying an artifact that then sought out their phylacteries, but left enough to be a decent challenge to them. The players had a great time both sessions and are planning a large celebration where the Rogue marries her long time beau and the king proposed to the party Psionicist.

A devil or other such outsider is a great idea. They ARE masters of intrigue and maneuvering their victims to their own advantage. Thanks!


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Alternatively to going straight to hell, bring hell to *gameworld here*

The NPCs, seeing themselves hopelessly outclassed by ye olde PCs and their powers, get their bargaining bowls out and entreat with the local great entities to level the playing field. Maybe one house goes to Hell, another the Fey Courts, and another to the High Heavens, or Great Old Ones. Whatever, point is they make their deals, pay their prices, and change the game. The landscape (political and probably literal) is now radically shifted, you have the perfect excuse to ratchet up your NPCs to acceptable levels, and you can run wild in envisioning what happens to a Fey bargained kingdom or something like that (With Hell, there's always just filing the serial numbers of Cheliax).

Like I mentioned in Chromantic Durgon's thread answer, this is a wonderful idea. Having the NPCs make bargains with the powers of the Lower Planes is a great idea. They've had to combat Kytons on several occasions, and bringing in the more powerful ones would be a good tie in to the ones they've already dealt with. Thanks!


I'm glad you like the suggestion.

Just remember running the arch fiends shouldn't be all about their stat block, killing them isn't actually that hard, with the possible exception of the one that's a swarm whose name I forget. He could be tricky.

The challenge should be reaching their stat block, behind a whole plane of Machiavellian devils.


Exactly. I think I can manage to pull this off. Tonight's adventure is a side trek with only 3 of my sometimes 8 players so I have a bit of respite before tackling something as complex as the suggestions, but it should be very interesting! And there is a noble among the king's court who loathes the heroes because they don't come from noble backgrounds, but a couple of them even started out as lowlifes and are now among the most powerful and respected beings in the realm.


Fey would be the other interesting avenue but unfortunately there is nothing strong enough stated currently that the PCs couldn't smash them into a pulp at the levels you describe.

If the eldest ever get statted you might be in luck.

EDIT: Mephistopheles is probably the archefiend that would make the deal with a pissed off noble and also happens to be CR30 so he'd make a pretty kewl end boss for a campaign.

Or if you didn't want it to end you could deal with the consequences of the most influential and powerful archfiend (aside from Asmodeus) being killed, which could lead to civil war in hell for his position and also Ragatheils invasion of Avernus.


That's true.


I wouldn't worry about the various stat blocks for the demigods. Imo it kinda runs against the theme of political intrigue if you can just planeshift and mudstomp the guys to get your way.

I personally would stick to just having various mythic heralds/representatives brought in by bargaining. Like that Knight, he's quite displeased by the flagrant violation of societal norms the PCs represent with their birth but is powerless before them so he goes to Mephistopholes/Asmodeus/Whatever to help reassert the proper way of things. After all, Devils know about proper hierarchies. So now he's a mythic dude after some necessary sacrifices (in his eyes). The other noble houses, appalled by this also start seeing the writing on the wall: Even if the PCs were largely benevolent, Knight Dude probably isn't and to hold onto their power base, they're going to need some mythic stuff of their own. Cue the phone calls to Pinhead/Cthulhu/etc.

Did the PCs really expect to just become walking atomic bombs and for the world to not react? They forced this escalation with their meddling... (>Paraphrase of some NPC probably)


I think when I decided to take the campaign in a Mythic direction they had no idea what they would become capable of doing. As they progress, they're often pretty surprised at the things they can do now.


Gotta get ready for tonight's side trek. Thanks for the advice, you guys!


Actually Mephistopheles might not be super into proper acsension through the heirarchy given that Asmodeous put a few people's noses out of joint when he created him as his right hand without him paying any dues.


Cal,

Wouldn't it ba better to set it up that just killing the bad guy isn't going to make things right? Maybe that would just make things worse as the sudden power vacuum brings all of the unsubtle out of the woodwork. Having to back him into a corner so tight that they can force him to swear an oath to (whatever). They then have to start balancing their own greed with how far they can push the situation without, quite literally, causing all the hells to break loose. If you think they are up to the challenge, perhaps multiple bad guys might have to be "influenced" this way.


It might be too late for this suggestion but here goes anyway:

Maybe Mephistopheles is the lock that keeps Rovagug in prison. Destroying Mephistopheles will release Rovagug dooming the entire universe and is therefore not an option (not a sane one anyway). But Mephistophes will honour any contract he makes with the PCs (to the letter of the law, not the spirit) the trick is getting him to the negotiating table and that involves finding out what Mephistopheles really wants.


Daw and Boomerang, you both have some pretty interesting ideas there. I don't use Golarion as my setting, so I'll have to study up on Rovagug, but those are definitely options I will consider!


I'd be hesitant to bring the Rovagug into things, he is the second or third most powerful thing in the setting and will likely take the players very very far out of the spotlight.

You could certainly do some interesting things with Mephistopheles but I wouldn't do that one.

He is also not exactly intrigue based


CD, agree on not bringing in Rovagug. End of the world does rather end the world after all.

Disagree on Mephistopheles. He is almost a perfect intrigue Background foe, with webs of compromised lackeys and constant plots and dark deals. As a monster of the week, yes he is a terrible choice, but if the campaign is about offing Arch-Devils and Demigods, then you can disregard anything I might say, and calling it Intrigue is innacurate.


You disagree that you could do some interesting things with him? Or that you wouldn't make him the key to the Rovagugs cage? Because otherwise I don't see how you disagree with me. I was the one that suggested Mephistopheles for intrigue in the first place...


Sorry CD, reread your posts, once again I have managed to misread and get the exact opposite message. My instant dismissal of any single key to Rovagug's cage had a part I guess. Rovagug's cage being a living, inhabited world rather implies that the whole of the thing is what is holding him. To free Rovagug, the whole system should need to be broken down, barring a clever play to just bypass the cage.


I think you guys are missing each other's points.

Daw I'm pretty sure is just leaving Rovagug as more or less a MAD option that explains why the PCs have to actually do intrigue to defeat Meph rather than the probably more expedient solution of kicking down his door in Caina and stomping him to a pulp. I believe Daw himself just missed the last part of Durgon's statement saying he wouldn't use Meph in that capacity, not that he wouldn't use Meph in general.

I personally agree with Daw that due to the nature of high level and mythic, there needs to be some reason for the PCs to not just solve the opposition via brute force which is easily within their capabilities if they picked options in nearly any fashion other than throwing darts at a board. Rovagug may be a bit heavy handed (and there's a can of worms on why Asmo isn't keeping the key himself as he normally does), but the general need for some reason to play the game of infernal thrones rather than murderhoboism is needed.

Edit: Gorram ninjas


No worries, I could have been more explicit.

I feel the chances of a least part of the key being in Nessus are extremely high, there could be several parts spread across the nine hells, honestly I could even see him having done things with like make deals with Charon.

He could have hidden part of it away in the axis for heavens sake. (See what I did ;) )

Searching for the pieces of the key could totally be a mythic campaign although you'd need a damn good reason to do so.

But it isn't what I'd turn this one into, I'd go with dealings with Mephistopheles or one of the other powerful archfiends and a potential civil war in hell or an invasion of it from heaven would be the endgame I would aim for.

EDIT: The reason for them not just plane shifting in and banging down the door is easy dimensional lock his whole palace, which could be several of square miles large, it should contain several advanced pit fiends. Mephistopheles is the favoured child of one of the most powerful gods in the pantheon, no-one in creation short of perhaps Pharasma should be able to just poof themselves in and fry him.

Beating him requires either weakening his realm, actual war in hell or tricking him into a trap, the second two options would make great aims in an intrigue campaign.


Now going after Mephistopheles should never be straitforward, he is imbedded in his webs of intrigue and contracts/compacts. You should NEVER be able get at him directly, because his allies, and even his rivals, cannot afford to let you. To get at Mr. M, you need to get at his webs. Interfere with his ability to provide his parts of his bargains causes him damage that he cannot afford. Interfere with his ability to "collect" on his contracts will cause no ends of pain to him. Attack his credibility.


I'm being slightly facetious with the whole "kick in the door" thing. Sure he can prevent you from just beaming directly into his bedroom and whacking him, but the sheer havoc a party of high mythic dudes can do is not to be underestimated. I mean, they can just go around blowing up various holdfasts in Caina or vaporizing his Dukes/Adv Pit Fiends/notable members of his power base with more or less impunity unless you ignore the stat blocks and make everything a far more significant threat.

Meph may be Asmo's homeboy, but Hell doesn't exactly tolerate failure either, and having a bunch of semi-divine yahoos lay waste to a circle of Hell, kill a notable portion of Infernal nobility, and other stuff to no gain ain't gonna help him when boss man starts looking for someone more competent.

This sort of thing is why I dislike mythic and Paizo's desire to stat out the lower rungs of divinity. Just makes these sorts of campaigns too easy to brute force without heavy restructuring on the GM end.


Not really mind blank anyone of importance, boom PCs cannot scry on anyone important, make one seat of power and make it extra dimensionally impregnable (dimensional lock) and unhallowed with all sorts of things and directly enhanced by Asmodeuos, guarded by legions of devils and containing several unique pit fiends.

The PCs can go round murdering pit fiends but who cares? If they need to hide they can hide in the palace, it's not Mephistopheles job to hold pit fiends hands when they get into trouble, and if PCs do enough they will attract the attention of the army's of hell, mythic PCs can and will die to attrition if a dimension of outsiders desides they want them too.

Also they're playing an intrigue based campaign, I very much doubt this is the approach PCs would take. Give the players some credit.

This palace is functionally impregnable, but due to its security mind blanked inner circle members sometimes how to leave to get shit done. Make this fact be something they can learn.

Make the story about finding out when they leave, where they're going, who they're going to, Mephistopheles web of security should be insanely complex, infiltrating it should be a quest goal.

And or look into Mephistopheles pattern throughout all of history, who does he make deals with and when, start beating him and his inner circle to the punch, offer people a better deal, stifle his and their ability to make contracts. They start to doubt his leadership much more than they would because of a couple dead pit fiends.

Make this information that the players can attain, both his patterns and his inner circle, but only through finding people hidden in their world and hell. Make it a treasure hunt, not a route march.

And don't let Mephistopheles be a goal post, he needs to move and work against the PC, he is working against them within their kingdom
He should also be working against them within their extended family and within neighbouring kingdoms, if they're going to seige his dimension he is going to siege their goddamn world.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I mean, you can say that, but when Paizo has an AP where a bunch of semi-divine yahoos DO basically just boot in the door to assassinate major planar figures (Sure its the Abyss and not Hell, but I figure the principle is more or less the same) in Wrath of the Righteous (and with fairly contemptuous ease going off general player reactions), you can sort of see where I'm coming from with this whole thing.

Yeah, yeah, the GM can play around all this, adjust stat blocks, and a bunch of other minutae, but as I said, it's a pain and overall its less a hassle if that option is presented as non-viable from the start.

As for player buy in...in my experience the only thing I've found to be predictable with PCs is their unpredictability :p


The difference between attacking the Abyss and attacking Hell seems massive to me, the only larger difference would be the Axis vs the Mealstrom in my eyes. Those campaigns frankly seem naive to me. If you want this to work you have to build it for your party and what they want to do which cal can do and Wrath cannot. And frankly allowing the door behind which Mephistopheles sit to be kicked open, is stupid. I'm proposing that door be impenetrable until the PCs hit certain campaign goals, or better yet, you trap Mephistopheles outside the door, through trickery and or backing him up against a metaphorical wall.

Cal made 9 liches, three mythic ones who ran his whole world setting and then they died, I'm pretty sure he is willing to fiddle some pit fiends.

And all this nay saying is irrelevant, the reality is he has mythic high level PCs and he wants intrigue, the most powerful people in the entire planet are dead, short of making up extra terrestrial invaders which would be more work, he needs to use the mythic stat blocks provided and the only ones that work for a intrigue campaign as far as I can see are the arch devils and Hastur. I think the archdevils would be easier to make work.

You made your own suggestion which from what I can see involves some aristocrats making some deals with the same demigods I'm trying to suggest the PCs interact with, to turn them into super humans to fight the PCs. in fighting in turn provokes the other noble houses to make the same deal and .... stuff happens. To me that doesn't sound remotely intrigue based and telling your PCs, "yes there are statted Demi-gods making super charged enemies left and right but no I don't want you to deal with them" sounds like a sure fire way to piss of players and not preparing the archfiends to enter the campaign should you let them deal with it is a good way of making them seem lack luster.

I've made my suggestion which you seem to think is doomed to end is disappointing failure by the very nature of having statted demigods. We don't agree, we won't agree, I don't think going backward and forwards on the issue is going to bare fruit, Cal can make up his own mind about which path to follow, or neither, or bits of both. Whatever. Thanks for talking to me though, it was interesting to hear your point of view.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Cheers mate. Civil discussion is always appreciated. I'll take that over a paladin thread any day.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm glad we agree.


I really didn't mean for this to turn into such a debate, though it has been really helpful to me. Like CD said, there are bits and pieces from every post that I can now take and work on to create a whole. I appreciate the time you took to look at my question and to offer the advice and debates that you did. I think, as I said above, there is a great amount of material here that I can build on that will likely to take my campaign to its 20th level capstone.

Thank you to all who expressed their opinions and their interest in my humble request. And keeping it civil is what keeps bringing me back tot he boards day after day.

Now, to plot the end of the world.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DungeonmasterCal wrote:


Now, to plot the end of the world.

Have fun with that one. Personal experience ranks that as one of my favorite things to do with a homebrew world!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Good luck :)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Hitting a Creative Wall All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice