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Return of the Runelords


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Life in your home campaign is much easier and more enjoyable when you pay no attention to canonical dates. :D

-Skeld


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Not going to dispute that one bit, Skeld!

I'd have to rummage through my notes to figure out which AP occupies which time blocks in my own campaign. One of my players is GM'ing Giantslayer in a shared setting, so I should probably do so sooner rather than later just to keep my campaign calendar straight. :)

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Campaign Trait request:

Hero Worship: Over the last decade, you've heard of the heroes that have faced the slumbering evils of the Thassilonian Empire, and one in particular has inspired you to become an adventurer from these tales of derring-do. Select a PC you have played that has completed either the Rise of the Runelords or Shattered Star Adventure Path, and one of these traits, based upon their character archetype: arcane, divine, martial, psychic, or skill. You gain a bonus when interacting with this character, and the following additional benefit:

<insert descriptions of what those five archetypes do here>

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Skeld wrote:

Life in your home campaign is much easier and more enjoyable when you pay no attention to canonical dates. :D

-Skeld

Speak for yourself, I love me some masochistic obsessive calendar tracking ;D

(I'm pretty sure its what turned Dou-Bral into ZK)

Anyhoo, I do get why they don't have official dates for APs(though I'm confused why anniversary edition of RotR removed mention of 4707 starting date while keeping the reference to "5 years afterwards the even that took place in 4702" thing), but I would like dates that ARE mentioned to be consistent :'D I've spent a lot of effort into keeping track of Kaijitsu family timeline and I'm still pretty confused about several details.


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Maybe I'll just write the Anniversary Edition of Second Darkness myself. ^_^


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Skeld wrote:

Life in your home campaign is much easier and more enjoyable when you pay no attention to canonical dates. :D

-Skeld

Nah, then you just have to pay more attention to your OWN dates. If you play in a continuous setting like I do, anyway.

Going to have to do some timeline finagling for this one, as in our universe, 20-23 years have passed between Shattered Star and some of the other APs. Definitely worth it, though. I'm excited for this one, especially since we're about to start up a Rise of the Runelords game in the next few months (one we wrap up Hell's Rebels).


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I find it rather surprising that Wrath of the Righteous was such a negative experience. The other day I tallied up all the averages of the reviews for the completed APs on the site, and Wrath came in 9th of 20, ahead of eleven other APs, more than half of the other APs released. I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?

I, too, was rather hoping for an AP in 2018 dealing with the doomsday clock countdown hitting zero...

Alas, not to be...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Belltrap wrote:
I find it rather surprising that Wrath of the Righteous was such a negative experience. The other day I tallied up all the averages of the reviews for the completed APs on the site, and Wrath came in 9th of 20, ahead of eleven other APs, more than half of the other APs released. I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?

I only have bits of the story so far, not having properly investigated it, but my understanding is that hardcore number-crunching, build-exploiting types felt the Mythic add-on made things too easy.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
AlgaeNymph wrote:

So...since James is in this thread about the Runelords, I think I'll ask some questions. ^_^

• What questions can't you answer?

• What questions can you answer?

{. . .}

Now you know he can't answer that . . . .

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Yakman wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
I envy the people who have the time and commitment from a group of players to ask about a way of stringing all 3 together !
4 if you add in Jade Regent.

Six if you include CotCT and SD.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, hopefully my group can get to this AP before we all die: we're only half way through RotRL, which we started in 2012.

The most important question which hasn't been asked yet is which member of the Vancaskerkin family is going to make an appearance?

Shadow Lodge

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Belltrap wrote:
I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?

The key word is "toxic," referring to forum interactions. Mr. Jacobs put himself out there front and center defending the AP.


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HangarFlying wrote:

Well, hopefully my group can get to this AP before we all die: we're only half way through RotRL, which we started in 2012.

The most important question which hasn't been asked yet is which member of the Vancaskerkin family is going to make an appearance?

Great-great-great-many-times-removed Grandpappy 'Xanderghul' Vancaskerkin aka the Runelord of Pride, eternally ashamed of his descendants. ;)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Did i miss if they said if The Waking Rune will have happened.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My dislike of WotR AP has nothing to do with the mythic rules and it saddens me that AP gave those rules such a bad reputation.


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captain yesterday wrote:
Did i miss if they said if The Waking Rune will have happened.

It looks like the AP assumes two Runelords have already risen, so yeah, The Waking Rune seems to have happend.

I spent the better half of today figuring out how to make a working adventure out of season 4 society scenarios just in case my group wants to be completist with their Runelord killing. And to integrate Lissala and Krune in an arc that doesn't involve constant mission briefings and jumping incoherently around in Varisia is harder than expected


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Will the order of the Runeguards, guided by Soralyon's light, have a role in Return of the Runelords? I think that the Runeguards would be good allies for the PC against the Runelords, at least as support or as a source of knowledge. I would be very happy if one of the support article of the AP would be about them or about Soralyon because they fits very well with the flavor of this AP. I know they hadn't a role in the previous APs of this story arc, but that was because that prestige class didn't exist when they were published

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
AlgaeNymph wrote:
Belltrap wrote:
I find it rather surprising that Wrath of the Righteous was such a negative experience. The other day I tallied up all the averages of the reviews for the completed APs on the site, and Wrath came in 9th of 20, ahead of eleven other APs, more than half of the other APs released. I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?
I only have bits of the story so far, not having properly investigated it, but my understanding is that hardcore number-crunching, build-exploiting types felt the Mythic add-on made things too easy.

I'm honestly under impression that its mostly Magnus's epic rant thread on subject. I mean, I've seen a lot of opinion that Wrath of Righteous isn't well balanced on difficulty side, but I haven't really seen many people being as angry about it as Magnus was .-. Like most people seem to think they would like the ap, but think mythic stuff wasn't enough playtested. I think its really more case of that thread leaving strong impression.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
Well that is disappointing:(
Could you elaborate? Were you hoping for an AP set in a different area or something? I for one am psyched that we get a chance to battle another (maybe even multiple) Runelord.

Not every thing is of equal interest to every person, so it's probably best to just leave it at that.

Personally, I'm really excited to FINALLY be able to finish up the "Runelords" trilogy. "Return of the Runelords" contains some plot elements that I've been eager to explore pretty much since day one of Pathfinder, back when I was working on Rise of the Runelords. I've been dropping hints and foreshadowing and other things about a lot of the stuff that's gonna take place in this AP for decades. Gonna be really fun to see how it all works out!

Your hints and foreshadowing hasn't gone unnoticed.

Liberty's Edge

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So, anyone could give us a Quick summary of PFS S04?


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CorvusMask wrote:
AlgaeNymph wrote:
Belltrap wrote:
I find it rather surprising that Wrath of the Righteous was such a negative experience. The other day I tallied up all the averages of the reviews for the completed APs on the site, and Wrath came in 9th of 20, ahead of eleven other APs, more than half of the other APs released. I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?
I only have bits of the story so far, not having properly investigated it, but my understanding is that hardcore number-crunching, build-exploiting types felt the Mythic add-on made things too easy.
I'm honestly under impression that its mostly Magnus's epic rant thread on subject. I mean, I've seen a lot of opinion that Wrath of Righteous isn't well balanced on difficulty side, but I haven't really seen many people being as angry about it as Magnus was .-. Like most people seem to think they would like the ap, but think mythic stuff wasn't enough playtested. I think its really more case of that thread leaving strong impression.

The other part is that you can find quite a few threads with people whining about getting trumpeted in the face by Iomaede.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
AlgaeNymph wrote:
Belltrap wrote:
I find it rather surprising that Wrath of the Righteous was such a negative experience. The other day I tallied up all the averages of the reviews for the completed APs on the site, and Wrath came in 9th of 20, ahead of eleven other APs, more than half of the other APs released. I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?
I only have bits of the story so far, not having properly investigated it, but my understanding is that hardcore number-crunching, build-exploiting types felt the Mythic add-on made things too easy.
I'm honestly under impression that its mostly Magnus's epic rant thread on subject. I mean, I've seen a lot of opinion that Wrath of Righteous isn't well balanced on difficulty side, but I haven't really seen many people being as angry about it as Magnus was .-. Like most people seem to think they would like the ap, but think mythic stuff wasn't enough playtested. I think its really more case of that thread leaving strong impression.
The other part is that you can find quite a few threads with people whining about getting trumpeted in the face by Iomedae.

Okay, those folks brought the trumpets-to-the-face on themselves. ;)


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The Mad Comrade wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
AlgaeNymph wrote:
Belltrap wrote:
I find it rather surprising that Wrath of the Righteous was such a negative experience. The other day I tallied up all the averages of the reviews for the completed APs on the site, and Wrath came in 9th of 20, ahead of eleven other APs, more than half of the other APs released. I suppose, though, that review scores are only part of the story, and that sales are another part?
I only have bits of the story so far, not having properly investigated it, but my understanding is that hardcore number-crunching, build-exploiting types felt the Mythic add-on made things too easy.
I'm honestly under impression that its mostly Magnus's epic rant thread on subject. I mean, I've seen a lot of opinion that Wrath of Righteous isn't well balanced on difficulty side, but I haven't really seen many people being as angry about it as Magnus was .-. Like most people seem to think they would like the ap, but think mythic stuff wasn't enough playtested. I think its really more case of that thread leaving strong impression.
The other part is that you can find quite a few threads with people whining about getting trumpeted in the face by Iomedae.
Okay, those folks brought the trumpets-to-the-face on themselves. ;)

I haven't read the AP but that sounds like the general gist of it. Act like an amoral jerk in front of the LG crusader goddess and get hit. Sounds about right to me anyway.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's a discussion best had elsewhere.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Deleted for being to negative. I just don't like mythic


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Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.


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Malefactor wrote:

Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.

Too late, this is a Wrath hate thread now. Grab your rifle and bayonet and report to the trenches soldier.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Malefactor wrote:

Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.

Too late, this is a Wrath hate thread now. Grab your rifle and bayonet and report to the trenches soldier.

Bu-but my GM banned Gunslingers! Can I be a Bolt Ace instead?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Malefactor wrote:

Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.

I think Xanderghul has at least three things in play, subject to correction by development:


  • Razmir is a simulacrum of him. Wildest, probably won't hold water, but it amuses me. Alternatively his true surname is Vencaskersen, forever ashamed of his descendants, however tenious the blood connection may be.
  • He is the Peacock Spirit.
  • He is Mengakare. As THE grandmaster of all things illusion, I'm thinking he awoke first of the Runelords by a lot and assumed the form of the great gold wyrm. Who'd even question Mengakare's motives? Eugenics is suspicious, Hermea's an island hermit kingdom ... pretty convenient...


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Malefactor wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Malefactor wrote:

Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.

Too late, this is a Wrath hate thread now. Grab your rifle and bayonet and report to the trenches soldier.
Bu-but my GM banned Gunslingers! Can I be a Bolt Ace instead?

As long as you can stick a bayonet on it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Malefactor wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Malefactor wrote:

Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.

Too late, this is a Wrath hate thread now. Grab your rifle and bayonet and report to the trenches soldier.
Bu-but my GM banned Gunslingers! Can I be a Bolt Ace instead?
As long as you can stick a bayonet on it.

*Looks at stats for bayonets*

...Nevermind, they aren't very good anyway.

Still, I wonder how they will deal with one of the PC's from Shattered Star potentially

S* Spoiler!:
being in one of Sorshen's clone bodies.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That last one I find both devious and amusing.


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I mean seriously, even if

S* Spoilers:
Sorshen for whatever reason can't use the fact that she used to own that body against the previous PC, imagine what the current PC's reaction will be when they walk into Magnimar and see Sorshen strolling around, artifact in tow?


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Malefactor wrote:

Deleted previous post in recognition that it would probably lead to derail (and that I haven't read the AP recently enough to be entirely sure if I was right anyway).

*Trying to rerail*

...So, we all agree Xanderghul is the Peacock Spirit, right? Because he's totally the Peacock Spirit.

I thought he canonically worshipped the Peacock Spirit. I mean, maybe I'm underestimating the Runelord of Pride, but worshipping himself seems kind of pointless. I was wondering if the Peacock Spirit had something to do with Melek Taus, the Peacock Angel.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ouachitonian wrote:
I mean, maybe I'm underestimating the Runelord of Pride, but worshipping himself seems kind of pointless.

It would explain how he was the most qualified for the position, though. :D


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Malefactor wrote:
I mean seriously, even if ** spoiler omitted **

I can't imagine that the

Spoiler:

Sorshen-cloned PC is going to have a very good time against the real Sorshen thanks to that -10 penalty or so on a bunch of nasty, nasty saving throws. If 'the real Sorshen' knows some form of sympathetic blood magic rituals to supplement her standard Wizardly nastiness, the cloned Sorshen is in for a world of hurt...


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
AlgaeNymph wrote:

So...since James is in this thread about the Runelords, I think I'll ask some questions. ^_^

• What questions can't you answer?

• What questions can you answer?

{. . .}

Now you know he can't answer that . . . .

I meant what sorts of questions. During the later days of his ask thread, there were always questions where he said, essentially, that certain spoilers would be hazardous to his job.

Also, I seem to have scared him off, as he hasn't showed up to this thread for a while. ):


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Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

As I am kinda surprised no one has speculated but which Runelords do you all think we are getting in here and to what extent? Like, I have a feeling Belimarius is going to be the final boss of book 5. The City Outside of Time I would be willing to bet on being the Crystilan, and a CR 18 Abjurner with some adds (as she is slightly more powerful then Krune) makes a solid final fight for the PCs being lv 16 or so when book 5 ends (At least what i think will be the case). Likely being the Runelord of Envy she will have something powerful enough to wreck havoc and defeat some of the mythic powered Runelords, as she seems like the kind of one that would have defensive magic to deal with them.

Which leaves what others are going to show up? I feel that all 3 of those considered more powerful then Karzoug are going to be involved.

Hollow Mountain Comic Spoiler:
In the comics Xanderghul in a flashback does show up to Alaznist's home in Hollow Mountain jest before starfall and say she is the only one he remotely liked and when they return he wants her to help him restore Thassilon to its former glory. I have a feeling Sorshen is going to show up, but not necessarily be 100% antagonistic to the party, honestly hoping to use them as a means to get rid of her rivals, possibly sending them to get whatever Belimarius has hidden. and play a more passive role in the party and act as a potential threat in continuing the AP.

As such I think the only Runelord we will not be seeing in this AP is Zutha. Thoughts?


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Based on the working titles for the chapters with Karzoug and Krune confirmed as KIA pre-AP:


  • #133 Secrets of Roderic's Cove - the Set-Up, possibly via Sorshen and/or Xanderghul.
  • #134 It Came from Hollow Mountain - Runelord of Wrath Alaznist.
  • #135 Runeplague - Runelord of Gluttony Zutha.
  • #136 Temple of the Peacock Spirit - Xanderghul?! I find this a bit hard to believe ... but then, there's little information available at the moment.
  • #137 The City Outside of Time - Runelord of Envy Belimarious.
  • #138 Rise of New Thassilon - Runelord of Lust Sorshen, or perhaps she is 'dealt with' in Chapter 1 only to resurface here alongside Xanderghul after his escape clause is activated at the end of Chapter 4 to stomp on Our Heroes once and for all before these meddling kids jack up their stuff.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Mad Comrade wrote:
  • #138 Rise of New Thassilon - Runelord of Lust Sorshen, or perhaps she is 'dealt with' in Chapter 1 only to resurface here alongside Xanderghul after his escape clause is activated at the end of Chapter 4 to stomp on Our Heroes once and for all before these meddling kids jack up their stuff.
    [/list]
  • Given her penchant for betrayal, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sorshen ends up being an ally to the PCs against some or all of the other Runelords, and will likely still be standing at the end of the AP, carrying on with her decadent plots in a tenuous standoff with the PCs.

    Grand Lodge

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    I'm more worried that a well built Sorshen will just be able to diplomancy the pc's without casting a single spell. Display of Charisma is dope.

    Dark Archive

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Paladinosaur wrote:
    So, anyone could give us a Quick summary of PFS S04?

    Basically Lissala cultists try to revive the religion and Krune, includes visit to High Temple of Lissala and turns out Krune was sleeping in stasis sarcophagus in pyramid bunker in Darklands, pathfinders sabotage his runes taking off his permabuffs and then gang up on him(CR 17 vs six at level 11 characters at max lol) when he wakes up.(how many spells he had prepped depends on tier, four player adjustment yes/no, hardmode on/off and how well they did with sabotaging his stasis chamber runes) Also, Kurshu the Undying dies in fight against pathfinders giving her life to wake up Krune to spite them.

    (to be honest, I don't know all season 4 scenarios related to Krune's return, just the waking rune since I run hardmode version as non canonical one shot to my RotR party. Note that Krune could have rather easily just teleported out of the place, considerng PCs themselves get to the bunker by teleporting, but he doesn't because his tactics say "fight to death because goddang you aren't gonna run away from low level mooks" that'd just be embarassing)


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    Malefactor wrote:
    I mean seriously, even if ** spoiler omitted **

    Before or after they pull their eyes out of her cleavage? :P


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    Balancer wrote:
    I'm more worried that a well built Sorshen will just be able to diplomancy the pc's without casting a single spell. Display of Charisma is dope.

    I'd be more worried about being on the receiving end of a Bluff of +85 to +110...


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    one question: if the RotRL PCs are still around wouldn't they basically just point the PCs to the Runeforge with directions on how to craft runeforged weapons (or if your players are like mine, would have crafted runeforged weapons for EVERY Runelord, just in case another one wakes up in their lifetime)?
    especially the latter version is a bit troublesome, because there are weapons out there specifically created for this event


    If I remember right, which I may not, the Runeforge only had enough power left in it to empower X number of runeforged weapons, so that may be why no more can be created, unless there is a method of recharging it or something.

    Scarab Sages

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber
    James Jacobs wrote:
    Stratagemini wrote:

    Will Runelords Other than the final 7 be present? I think Belisarius had their successor trapped in some sort of temporal freeze?

    Also, Will this AP assume the Seven Swords of Sin Module happened? and will we see any of the swords?

    Yes to most but not to all.

    Your Avatar is wrong. You're not a dinosaur, you're a troll.


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    Stratagemini wrote:
    James Jacobs wrote:
    Stratagemini wrote:

    Will Runelords Other than the final 7 be present? I think Belisarius had their successor trapped in some sort of temporal freeze?

    Also, Will this AP assume the Seven Swords of Sin Module happened? and will we see any of the swords?

    Yes to most but not to all.
    Your Avatar is wrong. You're not a dinosaur, you're a troll.

    Who's to say that trolls aren't also dinosaurs in Golarion?

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