Return of the Runelords


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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CorvusMask wrote:
Wouldn't Runelords going to Numeria be jumping a looooooot ahead? <_< I mean, there are two countries between Numeria and Varisia plus I think runelords would have too much infighting to conquer other lands besides Varisia

I don't think I'm suggesting a Numerian Runelords campaign. I'm just referring to what would the RLs do with this new and different path for power. Personally, if I woke in a world far different from the one I left behind, I'd probably travel and see what was to be seen before I suddenly announced my return and opened myself up to attack by forces largely unknown to me.

Based on that, it seems pretty difficult to imagine a being as powerful as a Runelord would remain ignorant of this bizarre and crazy new magic based on the alien technology of Silver Mount. And once known, it's equally difficult to contemplate they wouldn't try to acquire something to use in the inevitable fight for dominance over former Thassilon with their rivals and the current inhabitants.

EDIT: And don't forget, I'm just asking for advice on what they might do with Numerian tech. Not add it to the new AP and make it necessary. :)


^I get the impression that the Runelords are constrained by the method of their dormancy to do mischief in their local area before they can get out to find out what's new in the world.


Why is that germane to asking what the developers think the Runelords would do when presented with X, Y, or Z?

Again, this was just an ask for maybe some additional support with a blog article or two which is all just opinion and wouldn't be canon in that context. No one is asking for history or setting rewrites even when asking for sidebars about "what if this or that happened" before RetotR started. This is not meant to be any different.


If nothing else, the fact that Silver Mount is the best place to get the various star metals, would be a good reason for them to at least be aware of what's going on up there.

Also, they might in fact be constrained in a local area.

Their minions however, have no such restrictions.

Now, I'm not saying anybody needs to write up what Pinvendor is asking for(despite my liking the suggestion),

However, if you think incredibly powerful wizards, with a link to otherworldly metals, would not have sent agents to Numeria where said metals are found on Golarion, you're doing them an incredible disservice.


Yes, but if they are really paranoid about the loyalties of their minions (Runelords HAVE been killed by their successor Runelords, after all), they might be wary of sending their minions off to areas they can't watch themselves. I wonder how many totalitarian states on Earth have impaired their own espionage programs that way? . . .


Questions that still prick my restless soul in the dead of night:

1) Does Aeryn Barret still have nightmares?
2) Why didn't Craesby notice Foxglove stuffing a body in the attic?
3) Is the Black Magga still swimming around in that lake?
4) Why did the writers sink the Paradise instead of designing an awesome Casino Heist challenge?
5) Was Longtooth the father of those two baby dragons under Jorgenfist? Did he betray and capture his OWN CHILDREN?
6) What lengths did Khalib go to while perfecting his Yeti act?
7) Were the coins that the PCs put into the Portal of Greed dropping directly on Ghlorofaex's head? Is that why he's grumpy?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

3) Probably not since now she has access to rivers :P

5) Probably not since he was either juvenile or young adult red dragon if I remember right.

Sovereign Court

4 - HMM was famously overwritten and masses had to be cut for space reasons.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The material that was originally going to be in Paradise was one of the things that put the original Hook Mountain Massacre about 50% over its wordcount. It was cut and then recycled by the author at my suggestion to become the Eel's End section of the first adventure for Curse of the Crimson Throne, so it's not like that content is gone forever. :-P


Ah, wordcount. One sympathizes.

I had my party racing against time to stop Yads and Berthandy Kesker from strapping a halfling bomb (TM) to the side of the barge.

Also, I demand an answer to Question 7, James. I think you owe it to all of us. Do the coins fall on Ghlorofaex's head?


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GeraintElberion wrote:
4 - HMM was famously overwritten and masses had to be cut for space reasons.

Before seeing James Jacobs' message, I misread this as the initials of a certain Venture Captain who frequents these Messageboards . . . .

Liberty's Edge

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
4 - HMM was famously overwritten and masses had to be cut for space reasons.

Before seeing James Jacobs' message, I misread this as the initials of a certain Venture Captain who frequents these Messageboards . . . .

I had a similar experience not long ago reading the GM thread for Skinsaw Murders. Got me wondering if HMM was inspired at all by the name of the adventure when deciding to use her initials.


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OK, so I finally come back to the boards and discover THIS! First thing I did was to inform my hubby that I WILL be buying this AP when it comes out. I have RotRl AE & SSt and I was already planning on getting the CoCT AE.

I've just restarted my original RotRl game (its failure was my fault, not the PCs) so, I guess I'm going to have to lock my players in the basement and play every day to get ready.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Yes, but if they are really paranoid about the loyalties of their minions (Runelords HAVE been killed by their successor Runelords, after all), they might be wary of sending their minions off to areas they can't watch themselves. I wonder how many totalitarian states on Earth have impaired their own espionage programs that way? . . .

Mortal minions, sure, they could totally be paranoid about them.

However, if I was a super powerful mage, I would dominate, charm, summon, construct, etc minions that could not betray me to act as spies in a land I might be really interested in.


^Fair enough, but these kinds of minions have limitations in their abilities. The kinds of minions that have abilities to be REALLY good spies also tend to have a knack for finding ways to betray you. Also, a technical point: As Thassilonian Specialist Wizards, some of the Runelords have Prohibited (not just Opposition) Schools for what you would need to do a fair amount of what you are talking about.


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OK, silliness:

Given the error earlier in the thread about 4 rather than 5 Runelords returning, who do you all think is most likely to poke his/her head out of their hidey-hole, see what the world has become and go "Nope" and duck back in? And why?

Too bad Sloth is out, he'd make the most sense.

Other than that, my bet: Gluttony. "Those modern folk are taking us out left and right...I'm undead, I have minions, I'll just disguise them and send them out for anything I need/want. Why take the risk?"

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs: You wrote in one of the first APs (can't remember which one) that Lamashtu has more plans for Varisia, but this never got developed. Will this be the AP, where her plans will surface?


One if the pf novels deals with Zutha to some extent. I'm curious if that at all is considered with regard to this AP; I can see a yes answer provoking some FR flashbacks for some people, though.

Silver Crusade

It's my understanding that all of the fiction (novels and comics) is considered canon (the Campaign Setting line has referenced characters and events from the novels almost since day one).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Dryder wrote:

James Jacobs: You wrote in one of the first APs (can't remember which one) that Lamashtu has more plans for Varisia, but this never got developed. Will this be the AP, where her plans will surface?

I've been dropping in hints of her plans for Varisia—for the Lost Coast region in particular—here and there. There's several in the back matter for the first comic book series, for example, some hints in Demons Revisited, and of course there's Burnt Offerings that sets it all up.

Thes plans won't play into Return of the Runelords, as Lost Coast locations won't play a big role in the AP... but stay tuned nonetheless. There might just be something else in the works!

Silver Crusade

Ooooo...


Ooooo... indeed

Liberty's Edge

Wohooo!


Rysky wrote:
It's my understanding that all of the fiction (novels and comics) is considered canon (the Campaign Setting line has referenced characters and events from the novels almost since day one).

Spoiler:
if that is the case, Zutha already made a return appearance in one of the Radovan and The Count novels. He may be out of the game for quite some time as a result. Which puts him, Karzoug, and Krune off the board, plus Alaznist if she died in the comics.
Silver Crusade

Orthos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It's my understanding that all of the fiction (novels and comics) is considered canon (the Campaign Setting line has referenced characters and events from the novels almost since day one).
** spoiler omitted **

*nods*

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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PFS scenarios and novels are all assumed as part of the background for Return of the Runelords, along with Rise of the Runelords and Shattered Star.


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With regard to any Runelords-not-appearing who met their fates in non-AP material (i.e., novels, comics, and PFS scenarios), will this AP's introduction (or some of the back matter) explain what happened to them?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eh, I don't think Zutha is out considering what happens in Lord of Runes

Basically, he is delayed by:
having ceiling dropped on him dropping him into pit with thousand ghouls devouring him. He has regeneration in Cenotaph though so he is gonna stay there for a while,
but none of characters think he is permanently done


@CorvusMask: Thank you for that update!

I don't play/read PFS scenarios, comics, or that many of the novels, so I'm woefully uninformed at to fates of

Spoilers!:
Krune and Alaznist.

Regarding Zutha: I thought that he was undead himself. If that's true, then why would thousands of ghouls want to devour him?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Bellona wrote:
With regard to any Runelords-not-appearing who met their fates in non-AP material (i.e., novels, comics, and PFS scenarios), will this AP's introduction (or some of the back matter) explain what happened to them?

Yes. You won't be required to own and have read the novels or PFS scenarios or comics to use Return of the Runelords. For that matter, you won't be required to own and have read Rise of the Runelords or Shattered Star.

But the more you HAVE read, the more you'll get out of it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bellona wrote:

@CorvusMask: Thank you for that update!

I don't play/read PFS scenarios, comics, or that many of the novels, so I'm woefully uninformed at to fates of

** spoiler omitted **

Because they were crazy and borderline mindless with them wanting only to devour ANY flesh.

Silver Crusade

CorvusMask wrote:
Bellona wrote:

@CorvusMask: Thank you for that update!

I don't play/read PFS scenarios, comics, or that many of the novels, so I'm woefully uninformed at to fates of

** spoiler omitted **

Because they were crazy and borderline mindless with them wanting only to devour ANY flesh.

Spoiler:
They were starving, and ghouls prefer to eat dead (and by extension, Undead) flesh over that of the living.

I'm still hoping that despite any already established fates for Runelords beyond those already met in Rise, there will still be entries and statblocks provided in case we want to use them for own non-canon games. :D

Shadow Lodge

pinvendor wrote:
I'm still hoping that despite any already established fates for Runelords beyond those already met in Rise, there will still be entries and statblocks provided in case we want to use them for own non-canon games. :D

And miss the chance to get you to buy Paizo's other products? What, do you want them to fold for lack of attention to their bottom line?


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In all honesty, if Paizo did a Campaign Setting product called Runelords of Golarion including statblocks (both normal and Mythic), entries which covered their fiefdoms and henchmen both pre- and post-Earthfall, descriptions of relationships with other big names, and suggestions on current agendas and items of interest to the Runelords in current age Inner Sea...

I would buy that.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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pinvendor wrote:

In all honesty, if Paizo did a Campaign Setting product called Runelords of Golarion including statblocks (both normal and Mythic), entries which covered their fiefdoms and henchmen both pre- and post-Earthfall, descriptions of relationships with other big names, and suggestions on current agendas and items of interest to the Runelords in current age Inner Sea...

I would buy that.

Interesting idea... but I strongly suspect that the closest we'll EVER get to publishing a product like that is Return of the Runelords.


And so I hold onto hope for my Runelord article entries in RetotR!


+1 on that wanting articles like that! Maybe one for each Runelord?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Bellona wrote:
+1 on that wanting articles like that! Maybe one for each Runelord?

We've done that article already. Check the last volume of Shattered Star.

Silver Crusade

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A book about Thassilon in the campaign setting line would be really cool (and probably more viable than "just" a book on the Runelords).


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Well, that book has already happened, it just wasn't exclusive to Thassilon.

Personally, I disagree about a standalone book on the Runelords not being viable considering they are a (possible) driving force now reemerging but technically without any specific regions "officially" under their sway as it would be if there was a Thassilon regional book.

As Paizo has done other sourcebooks strictly about adversaries (the dragon one comes to mind) revisited different monster types with encyclopedic style articles about each, this kind of thing isn't totally from left field.

I do understand it's super niche, however. But since RotR is what really got this whole thing going, I think a lot of us long time fans have been waiting for this moment when we would finally have as much information as possible regarding what Paizo has canonized for the Runelords, especially statblocks.

After all, there is plenty of information available for me to make it all up myself and do my own thing. Take Aroden. I get that Paizo's current stance is not to ever make any exact conclusion canon so we can all do our own things with it, and I have made up my own mind for my own players as to what happened there.

But that example aside, I suspect I'm not alone in the notion that somehow the Runelords are just considered differently by the fans. All the hints, all the speculation...most GMs and players have all expected Paizo to produce more official Runelords material, so anything we homebrewed was always just a placeholder for when the real deal showed up.

I'm just in the camp of people hoping for as much of the real deal as possible being made available to us. :)

Don't get me wrong, I doubt I'll be disappointed if Paizo chooses to not address anything. Since Mr. Jacobs has pretty much stated above that such a specialized sourcebook is not in the cards, I pretty much assume that whatever Paizo chooses not cover in RetotR is pretty much intended to be left to our imaginations a la the Death of Aroden, and other never-to-be-explained mysteries of Golarion.

Needless to say, I'm super excited about all of this!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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I think you're underestimating just how much Runelords and Thassilon information will be presented in the six voulmes of Return of the Runelords...

Both topics are VERY load-bearing for this Adventure Path, to the extent that putting that information into its own book on the side would go against our preference for giving GMs all the info they need to run an Adventure Path, frankly.


I can't tell you how much this post excites me!

But for clarity, I think there's been a bit of confusion regarding my initial intention on this topic.

The whole sourcebook post above was really in response to someone's rather sarcastic comment about Paizo actually being a business and making money for their wonderful and creative offerings to the gaming world. I was simply illustrating that I would indeed be willing to buy ancillary products if they happened to be Runelord-centric.

Also, the other part was to say how much I am hoping that the Runelords who may or may not have met their fate in products outside of the new adventure path will still have full entries including statblocks. If they don't, I'll get over it, but I'm certainly hoping nonetheless.

Aside from that...however, I suspect it may be you who may actually be underestimating just how much Runelord information myself and possibly others desire from you. You could probably do a regional book similar to the recent Taldor offering for each separate region of Thassilon's former provinces, and only begin to scratch the surface of what I hope to see presented. :D

Regardless, I know that there probably isn't any business sense to fulfilling such a niche desire for setting info, so I will be satisfied with whatever Return of the Runelords provides. I've waited this long, so definitely no reason to get sore about it now!


Bellona wrote:

+1 on that wanting articles like that! Maybe one for each Runelord?

James Jacobs wrote:

We've done that article already. Check the last volume of Shattered Star.

What I really meant was more than one page per Runelord, and including the stat block too. But I can understand that you want to keep that information for the relevant AP instalment. :)


Apologies if this has been asked already, but I'm super excited to give this a whirl! Levels 1-20? Hell yes! The only question I have is would it be optimal to have played Rise of the Runelords and Shattered Star first, or would it be perfectly okay as a standalone thing? For example, would I be able to run it with a group of players as their first campaign in Varisia, or even a group of players who played Runelords but not Shattered Star? Either way, I'm SO happy to see a level 1-20 AP, and it's gonna be so cool to see that high level play in action!

Grand Lodge

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It would absolutely be okay to have 'Return' as the first experience into Pathfinder.

Paizo, by its very nature as a publisher, has to make sure an AP stands on its own. They could never expect a new customer to have to by previous APs (at $120 for six volumes) just to understand the new one. Your players can Thoroughly enjoy 'Return' even if they've never played Pathfinder before.

Now, of course the experienced players will recognize this and that and will appreciate the AP on a deeper level, but that goes with the experience.

If you're able, of course run 'Rise' and 'Shattered Star,' -- or even just pluck elements from them and use them for inspiration to make your own campaign before 'Return' comes out. (I'm of the opinion that one should not start playing a new AP at the publication of the very first volume; with only one book you're missing 5/6 of the metagame knowledge from the campaign you're DMing. It's better to have read several of the six volumes-- if not all -- prior to starting DMing it.)

Of course, this also gives you time to DM the earlier APs and maybe even some of the other Varisia adventures before starting 'Return'!


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I would run RotRL, SS, and "The Seven Swords of Sin", at least.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

SSS isn't canon anymore though <_< So running it wouldn't really make sense as far as I know


Swords of Sin isnt canon? Since when?

Silver Crusade

Since Rise of the Runelords?

Though no Module is “canon”, so that’s a bit misleading. It and Rise have some overlapping elements but you can include it in Rise with some tweaking.

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