Hi Everyone, i need your opinions.
right now i have a aasimar inspired blade/noble fencer swashbuckler 1/unchained rogue 3 soon to be lv5.
our campaign so far has focus equally on combat and none combat encounters(mysteries and so forth) so rogue has been decent. now i heard that a swashgator is really good at combat and skill, especially if you dip swashbuckler for one level. now here comes the part where people beat me to death. I interested in taking the Spiritualist investigator archetype with it. i know that extracts are good, but we already have a cleric, a bard, a blood rager and a alchemist. so i don't feel like being a "caster" and the Spiritualist abilities suit the current campaign. really my question is, which build would work better at secondary melee/skill monkey?
inspired blade/noble fencer swashbuckler 1/unchained rogue 4
vs.
inspired blade/noble fencer swashbuckler 1/Spiritualist investigator 4
edit: if it helps, my stats are str 9, dex 18, con 16, int 16, wis 18, cha 16. so technically being MAD is not an issue.
Both work fine.
Investigator wins at combat via it's studied combat ability, but not by much since you're getting rid of alchemy.
Though for the rogue you don't really have any reason to go swashbuckler, the reason for the dip for investigators is to allow dex to damage at lv1, but since a rogue already gets that at lv3 there's no reason to dip for it.
all told they are close enough to each other, since you give up alchemy, that it doesn't matter much which you go with.
Swashigator all the way.
i guess swashigator is stronger. i really would like the rogues debilitating stike, but i'm not sure that's enough to justify it. looking over the Spiritualist archetype again, i realize that i only like it because you get wis to AC and Saves. other then that the abilities are situational. since Empiricist won't help me at all due to my ability scores what would be the best archetype for a combat/skill monkey investigator?
Inspiration allows investigators to totally rock skill checks. You will excel there, no question. The combat difference is primarily in sneak attack. I've heard a swashigator can be a reasonably effective melee character, but I haven't seen them in action as much. My guess is that if you take sneak attack out of the equation, the investigator comes out slightly ahead.really my question is, which build would work better at secondary melee/skill monkey?
inspired blade/noble fencer swashbuckler 1/unchained rogue 4
vs.
inspired blade/noble fencer swashbuckler 1/Spiritualist investigator 4
Rogue's have sneak attack when flanking, investigators have studied combat that adds half their level to attack and damage. So at lv4 the rogue adds 2d6~7 damage sometimes, the investigator is adding +2 to hit and +2 to damage, and since 1 accuracy is usually worth about 2 damage that's +6 damage. And then it just goes back and forth, lv5 the rogue gets another d6 for ~10.5 and then the investigator gets another +1 for ~9 damage. And while the rogues seems a little higher, it's often very conditional so there are rounds you're not getting it, while the investigator's is enough to be always on.
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i guess swashigator is stronger. i really would like the rogues debilitating strike, but i'm not sure that's enough to justify it. looking over the Spiritualist archetype again, i realize that i only like it because you get wis to AC and Saves. other then that the abilities are situational. since Empiricist won't help me at all due to my ability scores what would be the best archetype for a combat/skill monkey investigator?
The best would probably be the default, oh wait no, the bonded investigator, gives up some poison resist for a familiar that auto improves and you give up nothing you really care about.
Getting mutagen, barkskin, and heroism is really great for combat, heightened awareness and heroism is great for skills.Familiar gives you more bonuses to stuff and eventually another character that can do it's own useful stuff or use wands.
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What I think pulls the investigator ahead, as chess pwn said, is you get the accuracy boost and damage with no tricks or flanking. This gives you more rounds of it (once you have quick study). In addition you always get the accuracy boost even against targets immune to precision damage.
Add to that the ability to burst a bit of extra damage. My play style favors fewer conditional abilities even if they can be a bit better in the right situation.
I like others have said with no spell or alchemy it gets close, with them it's no contest.
i guess swashigator is stronger. i really would like the rogues debilitating strike, but i'm not sure that's enough to justify it. looking over the Spiritualist archetype again, i realize that i only like it because you get wis to AC and Saves. other then that the abilities are situational. since Empiricist won't help me at all due to my ability scores what would be the best archetype for a combat/skill monkey investigator?The best would probably be the default, oh wait no, the bonded investigator, gives up some poison resist for a familiar that auto improves and you give up nothing you really care about.
Getting mutagen, barkskin, and heroism is really great for combat, heightened awareness and heroism is great for skills.
Familiar gives you more bonuses to stuff and eventually another character that can do it's own useful stuff or use wands.
yeah bonded investigator looks a pretty solid archetype. i was considering psychic detective, but that still was kinda meh...
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Investigators that give up alchemy are like fighters that give up bravery/armor/weapon training.
Normally I would recommend the empiricist but with those stats I guess it isnt needed. I know some people really liked the lamplighter for the improved init. Playing a level 5 Swashtigator and honestly he is a beast. I sign him up as a generalist... But I do 1D6+13 at +12 to hit and AC33 skills are pretty solid but my knowledge skills are getting a tad behind at 7+1D6+1 but I plan to get +4 to them all in 2 levels
Normally I would recommend the empiricist but with those stats I guess it isnt needed. I know some people really liked the lamplighter for the improved init. Playing a level 5 Swashtigator and honestly he is a beast. I sign him up as a generalist... But I do 1D6+13 at +12 to hit and AC33 skills are pretty solid but my knowledge skills are getting a tad behind at 7+1D6+1 but I plan to get +4 to them all in 2 levels
how did you get 33AC! mutagen and extracts? that's awesome.
Investigators that give up alchemy are like fighters that give up bravery/armor/weapon training.
The Questioner and Psychic Detective are fine.
Dont get me wrong the character finally clicked into place. Might not be optimized but here is a outline: Half elf Str 13 dex 18(22 with mutagen) Con 14(+2 belt) Int 16 Wis 10 (12 before mutagen) Cha 7. Skill focus in UMD so +14 atm. I have a spring loaded sheath with a wand of shield. also I spent the gold for a 12th level potion of barkskin (+5 for 2 hours) Mithril chain +1. so +6 from dex +4 shield, +5 armor, +5 barkskin and +2 from mutagen. Damage is +6 dex, +4 power attack and +2 studied +1 magic weapon. I didnt count heroism potion yet
okay then, swashigator wins by a landslide, every 2-3 months the GM allows us to change our characters. either maing a new character or making small changes to our pre-existing character (such as turning a wizard to an arcanist or fighter to a cavalier). so i'm going to change my rogue lvs to investigator lvs.
I will 2nd the call for the Lamplighter Investigator--easily my fave archetype. Mine is 7th level and when I roll for Initiative, I don't just roll the d20. I get to add Inspiration to the roll without expending any (obtained at 3rd level). At 12th, I will add both my Dex modifier AND my Int modifier to Initiative rolls.
Yeah I spent 1200gp for it but all my level 2 extracts will be alchemical allocation. Next level is extend potion then possibly enhance potion. I like the character to have options so the more potions the more options I have for AA.
question though, how do you go about buffing yourself? using a wand/potion/extract is a stranded action. seems like you would have to know your gonna be fighting someone before hand. (maybe scout familiar with bonded investigator)
As mentioned above they are Long term buffs. The barkskin is two hours and the rest of 40 mins. I use the wand of shield in rough fights.
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Admixture Vial lets you have one double extract ready each day. This is your ambush extract.
My swash-rage-gator's single round is free rage, swift study, move drink a potion in hand (it's a nervous tick he rolls a vial between his fingers unless asked to put it away), standard combine extracts or mutagen. One round he is ready.
A full buff would have heroism, barkskin, resinous skin, mutagen up, followed by a round of buffing.
Just to note, pure Rogue generally isn't the way to go - even if Unchained - if you want a Rogue with combat power. Unchained Rogue gets their most crucial features by level 4, so it's very easy to combine with other classes. Just a simple Unchained Rogue with a generous side of Weapon Master Fighter wielding an Elven Curved Blade is going to feel more or less the same as a pure Rogue, while being far, far more dangerous in combat; and there's about a billion other options as well.
Just to note, pure Rogue generally isn't the way to go - even if Unchained - if you want a Rogue with combat power. Unchained Rogue gets their most crucial features by level 4, so it's very easy to combine with other classes. Just a simple Unchained Rogue with a generous side of Weapon Master Fighter wielding an Elven Curved Blade is going to feel more or less the same as a pure Rogue, while being far, far more dangerous in combat; and there's about a billion other options as well.
Agreed.
Slayer, Ranger, Fighter, Brawler, Barbarian, Bloodrager all work wonderfully for add more combat efficiency and Survivability.