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Question to those with the books.
If what I'm reading is correct, low level characters have way more HP than in PF, because of Stamina, race hp, and adding resolve to "heal" stamina.
Yet it seems that low level tech weapons do very low damage, like 1d4 or so for laser pistols and such. As far as I understand, ranged weapons don't add an ability modifier, so while this might get solved later on when people are doing 10d12 with their nuclear powered lasers or whatever, it seems like at low levels, regular weapons are very dissapointing at killing things. A first level character would need to face a fussilade from a firing squad to die.
Is it that way? What am I missing?
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There are people who have playtested, and played, the game. I haven't heard lots of griping about not doing enough damage to win fights.
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There are people who have playtested, and played, the game. I haven't heard lots of griping about not doing enough damage to win fights.
Well, it's pretty obvious that, whatever the damage is, it is enough to win fights, because the other side also does the same amount of damage. It might last 1 round or 25, but someone will win.
My point was more about surviving tons and tons of shots, even at low level. A 1d4 laser pistol does barely more damage than punching someone, once you factor in the STR bonus. And precisely because some people have played /playtested the game, and I don't have it yet, is why I'm asking what am I missing. I only have small pieces of info, and they have the full book and experience with it.
Stamina is sort of a mix of shrugging off glancing blows on your armor and twisting away from near misses, both of which tire you out. I wouldn't personally describe that as "surviving tons and tons of shots." Anyway, real firefights at anything but point blank range (and often then) involve lots of shots fired for few real (HP) hits.
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There are people who have playtested, and played, the game. I haven't heard lots of griping about not doing enough damage to win fights.Well, it's pretty obvious that, whatever the damage is, it is enough to win fights, because the other side also does the same amount of damage. It might last 1 round or 25, but someone will win.
My point was more about surviving tons and tons of shots, even at low level. A 1d4 laser pistol does barely more damage than punching someone, once you factor in the STR bonus. And precisely because some people have played /playtested the game, and I don't have it yet, is why I'm asking what am I missing. I only have small pieces of info, and they have the full book and experience with it.
So ... how about ... you read the book first and then discuss the mechanics? Or is the idea of using complete empirical data far too radical in this case?
I get the stamina thing. I really like it, too. Still, 1d4 for advanced firearms sound weird, at least in a vacuum, before I get to check the book and playtest the whole thing.
Stamina aside... how many hp does a 1st level human soldier have, tho? How many average damage 1st level laser pistol shots can he soak?
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So ... how about ... you read the book first and then discuss the mechanics? Or is the idea of using complete empirical data far too radical in this case?There are people who have playtested, and played, the game. I haven't heard lots of griping about not doing enough damage to win fights.Well, it's pretty obvious that, whatever the damage is, it is enough to win fights, because the other side also does the same amount of damage. It might last 1 round or 25, but someone will win.
My point was more about surviving tons and tons of shots, even at low level. A 1d4 laser pistol does barely more damage than punching someone, once you factor in the STR bonus. And precisely because some people have played /playtested the game, and I don't have it yet, is why I'm asking what am I missing. I only have small pieces of info, and they have the full book and experience with it.
How about... I ask those who have read the book to hear what they have to say?
You know, like what half of the threads right now are about, people who have the book explaining those who have not what is in them? Or do you want to shut down those threads too?
Have you read the books? If so, could you answer my question about how much damage a 1st level firearm does compared to a 1st level soldier hp pool?
A human soldier is going to have 11 HP (4 human + 7 soldier) plus Stamina. So yeah, he can take quite a few zings from a 1d4 pistol.
There are examples in science fiction literature of lasers that do that sort of low-intensity burning damage. It's probably more accurate toward what you could expect from a hand-held energy weapon, but it doesn't really match the standard for TV/Movie Sci Fi/Sci Fantasy.
A 'realistic' system with standard advanced handguns (much more powerful than our primitive 21st century firearms) able to kill or cripple a human (even an experienced/high-level human) on a single hit probably isn't the style of gameplay they were going for.
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The thing is, any Human solider you run into isn't going to have that Stamina, because you aren't going to fight classed individuals, you're going to be fighting NPCs, which are built on a completely different scale.
When I get home, I'll run the maths comparing the Vesk Soilder Iconic at level 1 versus a Space Goblin to give you an idea.
There should only ever by 3-6 classed individuals in the universe, and they should all be represented by someone around the table with you
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A 'realistic' system with standard advanced handguns (much more powerful than our primitive 21st century firearms) able to kill or cripple a human (even an experienced/high-level human) on a single hit probably isn't the style of gameplay they were going for.
That's fine, with 2 caveats:
1) I'm not talking about high-level humans, but 1st level ones2) it's not about realism, it's about combat length in the game table. Granted, this is not just a function of how many rounds it take to kill someone, but also how fast each round is played.
A human soldier is going to have 11 HP (4 human + 7 soldier) plus Stamina. So yeah, he can take quite a few zings from a 1d4 pistol.
There are examples in science fiction literature of lasers that do that sort of low-intensity burning damage. It's probably more accurate toward what you could expect from a hand-held energy weapon, but it doesn't really match the standard for TV/Movie Sci Fi/Sci Fantasy.
So Constitution is not part of the HP pool, if I understand correctly, just Stamina, right?
Problem is not what a laser "should" do. I guess a revolver or cartridge pistol would do a similar amount of damage.
Thing is , first level combat is probably too swingy in PF, but my concern is the correction might have gone too far. Also, the fact that you don't add an ability bonus to pistols, and base damage is comparabily low, makes other low level thrown/melee weapons comparatively stronger, which is kind of counterintuitive. Throwing your pistol to someone should not do more damage than shooting him with it :P
I haven't played Starfinder, but as I understand it, enemies are built differently to PCs - they have good damage output but low hit points, while PCs have mediocre damage output but high hit points. So a battle between two PCs would take a long time, but killing enemies is quicker and easier than that.
I haven't played Starfinder, but as I understand it, enemies are built differently to PCs - they have good damage output but low hit points, while PCs have mediocre damage output but high hit points. So a battle between two PCs would take a long time, but killing enemies is quicker and easier than that.
This is a very good point.
We'll probably need to wait until Alien Archive to have a better understanding of how the math of combat works
Yes players seem more durable than critters in general. Critters just have HP so they don't have the extra damage buffering layers in general or at least that is true for the ones I have seen in the first contact book.
According to one of our gaming group who has the PDF, there are also other firearms besides laser pistols that do higher damage - 1d6 for ballistic pistols, 1d8 for laser rifles, so there are other options to whittle down that 1st level character. three or four hits with a laser rifle and that 1st level soldier is still in serious trouble. And, there are always good old fashioned melee weapons if you get impatient. :)
I agree that the item level 1 laser pistol itself seems a bit disappointing.
Yes players seem more durable than critters in general. Critters just have HP so they don't have the extra damage buffering layers in general or at least that is true for the ones I have seen in the first contact book.
I remembered the blog post a while ago that said monsters in general are less durable BUT more damaging.
So probably a combat PC vs monsters (including NPC, who are built like monsters), is going to be fine. It's PC damage vs PC durability what it looks like a slow bogdown fight, but the game isn't supposed to be balanced around Player vs Player conflict.
I guess my concerns should wait until they release Alien Archive. Until then, we don't have enough info.
Or at least the adventure path where we will have some actual starfinder creatures in encounters designed for those level ranges. Should be a LOT easier to get a feel for things after playing through a few of those.
Yes. There is a lot of pew pew noises going on. In fact the pew-pew noises might be more effective.
Damage is still very weird at 4th level, as non soldiers/operatives in the pre-gens are still largely stuck with trash. Meanwhile stamina, hp and even the ACs are doubling or more in that time.
It isn't just about do the numbers add up to enemy HP quickly enough, but whether it feels satisfying and if taking an action seems worthwhile to players. Without feeling obligated to set feats on fire to use and then buff real weapons, it really does not.
Question to those with the books.
If what I'm reading is correct, low level characters have way more HP than in PF, because of Stamina, race hp, and adding resolve to "heal" stamina.Yet it seems that low level tech weapons do very low damage, like 1d4 or so for laser pistols and such. As far as I understand, ranged weapons don't add an ability modifier, so while this might get solved later on when people are doing 10d12 with their nuclear powered lasers or whatever, it seems like at low levels, regular weapons are very dissapointing at killing things. A first level character would need to face a fussilade from a firing squad to die.
Is it that way? What am I missing?
No, low damaging weapons are energy weapons. All the kinetic guns deal more usually 1 dice size more.
Energy has better chance to hit, but less damage overall.Examples:
One handed Small arms:
1) Laser Azimuth (1d4 fire, target EAC)
2) Semi-Auto Pistol (1d6 Pierce, target KAC)
2 handed small arm:
3) Laser Rifle Azimuth (1d8 Fire, target EAC)
4) Hunting Rifle (1d8 Pierce, Target KAC)
5) Scattergun (shotgun ability blast, 1d4P, targets KAC on all)
6) Acid Dart Rifle (1d8 Acid and P, target KAC)
7) Pulsecaster (Nonlethal, 1d6 Electric, Target EAC)
Heavy
8) Artillery Azimuth (1d10 F, Pentrating, Target EAC)
9) Reaction Cannon (1d10 P, Pentrating, Target KAC)
Except for the laser Rifle, all non-energy deals more but kits the higher AC (KAC). Seriously, that rifle is way too good in comparison.
Enemy hps (since they don't get stamina) are basically 1.5 health (according to conversion guide in back of book).
So goblins from pathfinder would have 9 hp (instead of 6).
So 4 shots to put down a goblin? Way too low.
Since I don't have my book yet the hand lasers are tagged as fire damage does that have any kind of on going damage status effect from fire or just for creatures vulnerable to fire.
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Space goblins as per First Contact have 6 hp, which is the same as PF goblins.
Space goblins as per First Contact have 6 hp, which is the same as PF goblins.
That means 3 shots with the lowest level laser pistol, 2 shots with the lowest level cartridge pistol. 25% of the time they go down in 1 shot with lowest level 2handed laser gun, going by the table shown above.
It's not that bad. Yes, the pistols do a little bit less damage than I'd like, compared to, say, a dagger (which adds str), but it's not unbearable. A crit from a laser pistol still can kill a 1st level goblin.
Combat lasting more than 1 round is a valid and legit goal, imho. In some levels it might get rough and need a bit of ironing, but overall is a good design goal. Also, at higher levels players get weapon specializations, weapons get better, and stuff, so it's a problem that will last very little.
Anyone can use a the 1d4 laser pistol. Including Technomancers. Its the equivalent of a Pathfinder dagger except with really good range. And it targets EAC instead of KAC. I mean, a Wizard in Pathfinder is going to take on average 3 successful hits to take that 6 hit point goblin down with a dagger. Why shouldn't the generic, lowest level, easiest to use weapon take a few shots to drop an enemy at 1st?
If you want to put someone down fast, get the equivalent of a Barbarian wielding a 2-handed weapon. Then you're doing something like 1d12+4 (Tactical Doshko with 18 Str). That on average takes the goblin out in one hit.
In between is something like a Ranger with a longbow, doing 1d8 damage. That is your long arms equivalent. At 1st level long arms are doing 1d8, and possibly targeting EAC instead of KAC.
Presumably they increased stamina/hit points so that late game it doesn't just turn into rocket tag.
Side note: I just had the image of a Vesh Envoy yelling "Tag! You're it!" at the top of its lungs as it fires a rocket, providing a +2 Get 'Em bonus to everyone on that target...
Also resolve points are analogous to cure light wounds wands, except you don't actually need a divine caster to use them, and everyone gets them by default. If you think the number of hit points has expanded because of resolve points, consider that a character walking into a dungeon with a CLW wand doesn't have just 10 hit points. They have 10 + 50d8+50. Or an Infernal healing wand, which is 500 hit points. Altronous, the iconic Solarian pregen, at 8th level using all his resolve points to restore stamina brings about that many stamina points to the table.
In PFS play, I've rarely seen characters walking into a fight down more than a token few hit points. If anything, they've reduced the long term hit points because you can buy healing magic in less bulk (or your healers have fewer spells). Personally, I like that direction as it frees up party compositions.
Since I don't have my book yet the hand lasers are tagged as fire damage does that have any kind of on going damage status effect from fire or just for creatures vulnerable to fire.
On a critical it will inflict the burning condition (additional damage each round until a save is made).
Combat lasting more than 1 round is a valid and legit goal, imho. In some levels it might get rough and need a bit of ironing, but overall is a good design goal. Also, at higher levels players get weapon specializations, weapons get better, and stuff, so it's a problem that will last very little.
It is definitely a lingering problem for the pregens. Several of the level 4 characters are still only doing about 4.5 damage per shot (1d6+2) and the level 8 are up to about 9 to 11 (2d4+4 or 3d4+4)
Even the soldier isn't that far along (1d6+4 or 1d6+8 for the rifle at 4th and 8th)
The operative, of course, is off in its own little world, doing 2d6+4+4d8 at 8th. But then the other characters are built to show off a range of abilities, and the operative is stated and built as a murder bot. It's a little hard to tell how much is the class and how much is the system mastery that went into the build, but the operative just isn't playing the same game as everyone else.
By comparison, the creatures from first contact.
CR3- 36 hp
CR4- 52 hp (all 3)
CR5- 64 hp
CR6- 93 hp
CR7- 107 hp
CR9- 145 hp
Fights are going to drag, like 4e padded sumo: lots of HP bloat but mediocre damage.
Well, yes. A 1d6 gun vs a 2d8 melee weapon makes ranged a bad choice even without considering strength bonus. But it's a factor of the gun being inexplicably bad (worse than the soldier's starting gun, in fact)
As for the scattergun/flamethrower, that just seems terrible. Spreading damage out among a few targets is a poor choice, especially given they'd be close enough for the much better doshko (which doesn't seem to be unwieldy at 4th or 8th).
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The sweet spot between padded summo and rocket tag is incredibly elusive :(
The details are complex, I'll grant that.
But if your 4th level monsters have 52 HP and half your pregens are doing ~5.5 (1d6+2) damage with their basic attack (when it hits), you're probably leaning toward the former.
Especially since by 8th level, HP and AC are _significantly_ higher, and damage largely isn't.
If you're talking about 52 HP and 5.5 damage per attack, < 10 successful attacks win the day, spread across 4 characters. That seems like about 4 rounds at most. Sounds like a pretty good combat to me, assuming your "4th level monster" is a CR 4 which should be a reasonable encounter for a party of 4th level PCs.
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Yeah, but if your technomancer throws out a supercharge weapon, then that becomes 5d6+2. If you've got an envoy handing out buffs, the accuracy is going to make full attacks more worthwhile. If you're in melee, you're going to be hitting for more damage just from weapon die, not counting str bonuses.
Assuming everyone is going to just go pew pew isn't really the best plan.
If you're talking about 52 HP and 5.5 damage per attack, < 10 successful attacks win the day, spread across 4 characters. That seems like about 4 rounds at most. Sounds like a pretty good combat to me, assuming your "4th level monster" is a CR 4 which should be a reasonable encounter for a party of 4th level PCs.
No, not really. A single pirate captain or guard bot is a really boring and easy encounter for a party of 4th level PCs, as party-on-one combats tend to be. You just have to shoot them repeatedly. A bullet sponge that doesn't really do anything beyond strip a couple layers of stamina points is probably the least interesting encounter I can imagine.
Yeah, but if your technomancer throws out a supercharge weapon, then that becomes 5d6+2. If you've got an envoy handing out buffs, the accuracy is going to make full attacks more worthwhile. If you're in melee, you're going to be hitting for more damage just from weapon die, not counting str bonuses.
Assuming everyone is going to just go pew pew isn't really the best plan.
It's an objectively terrible plan. But it is an equation that needs to be solved for the baseline to be established. Then you sit down and do the hard part, and work out how class abilities alter it.
But you still have that simple 'solve for X equation' in the background, which should be informing decisions about class abilities.
Which leads to several observations-
the (4th level) solarion's damage output of 1d6+1d3+6+2+1 is probably one of the most offensive looking damage expressions I've ever seen in a game. Utter nonsense, and way too many damage sources for a simple attack, most of which are piddly nonsense. This begs for players to forget (or 'forget') multiple abilities, particularly the crystal, solar attunement and/or plasma sheath.
There are weird trap options, and they seem to be scattered all over the place. Some of these characters are hanging on to objectively terrible weapons for a long time. Quig is the most obvious, but at the same time, the character that needs the least help isn't having any trouble picking up a decent gun (and a fair knife), which stacks with a rapidly increasing ability (1d4 to 1d8 to 4d8 is an odd progression for trick attack). Which stacks on top of being built like a murder bot rather than a jack of all trades, which is not how most of the party is built).
The strange thing about it is, the traps aren't non-combat abilities, or even most of the combat abilities. For example, Navasi. Get 'em is pretty good and becomes very good (scaling and becoming part of an attack). But taking improved feint is a weird and terrible decision- it affects only her, has a chance to fail, and doesn't scale. But it's in direct competition with get 'em in her action economy, and combined with her consistently poor weapon loadout (until 8th level where she suddenly wants to stab people in the face, but has the AC of a 4th level soldier), is always a terrible choice.
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Especially since by 8th level, HP and AC are _significantly_ higher, and damage largely isn't.
Taking a look at the pregens, and picking the maximum damage option each character has each round, assuming a single attack (no -4 full attack penalities), I see:
From the Pregens:
Envoy: 1st 1d4 (2.5)
8th 2d6+8 (15)
ratio: 6
Mechanic: 1st 1d6+1d6 (7)
8th 2d4+4 +2d4+4 (18)
ratio: 2.5
Mystic: 1st 2d10 (11), save for half
8th 7d10 (38.5), save for half
ratio: 3.5
Operative: 1st 1d6+1d4 (6)
8th 2d6+4+4d8 (29)
ratio: 4.8
Solarian: 1st 1d6+3 (6.5), every 3rd round 2d6+1 (8) AoE
8th 3d6+14 (24.5), every 3rd round 9d6+1 (32.5) AoE
ratio: 3.7 or 4.0
Soldier: 1st 1d12+3 (9.5)
8th 2d8+14 (23)
ratio: 2.4
Technomancer: 1st 3d4+3 (10.5)
8th 9d6 (31.5) AoE, save for half
ratio: 3
Avg damage across all classes at 1st: 7.57
Avg damage across all classes at 8th: 25.6
Ratio: 3.38
From First Contact:
CR 2 (APL+1 encounter) single enemy hit points: 18
CR 9 (APL+1 encounter) single enemy hit points: 145
Ratio of 8
Assuming 50% mitigation rate (misses, saves made, etc), single action attacks:
A party of 4 1st level characters will on average defeat an APL+1 encounter in 1.2 rounds.
A party of 4 8th level characters will on average defeat an APL+1 encounter in 2.8 rounds.
Early levels look to be easier, and should take 1-3 rounds. At mid-levels you are looking at 2-4 rounds of combat on average. Thats with Pregens everyone claims are poorly designed. Optimized teams will presumably drop that time. How many rounds of combat do you think would be approriate?
Edit:
the (4th level) solarion's damage output of 1d6+1d3+6+2+1 is probably one of the most offensive looking damage expressions I've ever seen in a game.
It is a lot easier than many Pathfinder damage expressions.
Just to take a random example, I pulled out a 8th level Bloodrager character sheet I have access to, run by my daughter:
2d6 Greatsword + 1 (Enhancement) + 6 (1.5x Str) + 2 (Furious Enchantment) + 3 (1.5x Raging Strength) + 3 (1.5x Amplified Rage Strength) + 9 (Power attack) + 2 (Arcane Strike Swift action) + 3 (damave vs Spellcasting from Skald's Witch Hunter)
That is her typical damage attack, which can vary depending on range between allies (within 30' of the Skald?), if they started adjacent when raging, if she is raging, if she had a chance to use a swift action, and if she declared power attack. That's literally 6 separate effects to track which dynamically turn on and off throughout the combat based on allied actions and positions. One of which you need to ask the GM, "Does this enemy cast spells or spell-like abilities?". We literally have a sheet with a matrix and have occasionally used flashcards.
The Solarian's damage equation has two active components - Photon Mode and Plasma Sheath, both set by the player.
Starfinder is much easier on the damage and to-hit math, mostly because there are not the sheer number of options that Pathfinder currently has. Its no worse than a Bard singing and Wizard throwing around Bull's Strength buffs.
But you still have that simple 'solve for X equation' in the background, which should be informing decisions about class abilities.
I'd much rather play what seems to be fun than worry about optimizing every single aspect of my character.