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DC 70


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Quote:
How are you getting around the fact that RAW, expertise die (and operative's edge) don't work for crew actions? That 84 DC (with 3 perfect rolls on a char optimized specifically to pass crew action checks) becomes 68 without True Expertise.

There's an unofficial FAQ on thier twitter, I believe it was twitter, that said things that modified skills still worked. It'll be that way until at least this weekend when an actual errata drops.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Porridge wrote:
Quote:

20 (from d20)

16 (from 2d8 Envoy True Expertise ability) [insight bonus]
20 (20 ranks in Engineering)
3 (Engineering class skill)
2 (Lashunta Student ability) [racial bonus]
2 (Themeless Certainty ability 1/day) [untyped bonus]
9 (28 Intelligence)
2 (Encourage bonus from Captain) [untyped bonus]
10 (Mk 10 duonode Computer bonus) [circumstance bonus]

That allows us to hit a DC of 84.

These are all bonuses are ones the game allows you to have at the same time... and they all stack... and they add up to a number greater than 70... huh?

(We must be talking past one another. When you said "I'd still like to see math saying DC 70 is possible", I took you to mean, well, that you'd like to see how making a DC 70 check was possible. But perhaps you meant something else? Like "I'd like see math saying DC 70 is possible *given restrictions X, Y and Z*"? Or something?)

they all stack, but for example to add 16 from 2d8 you need to roll 8 twice, which happens 1.5% of the time, roughly. And you need to roll that in exactly the roll you are using the 1/day bonuses, and so on. Which might work 1.5% of the time for *ONE* action in your ship from *ONE* of your crewmembers in a single given round.

So while this might be the highest theorycrafted roll possible, it's not something that is going to happen anytime soon in any game table anywhere.

We're in complete agreement here.

The question was whether it was possible to hit a DC 70 skill check. The answer is: yes.

Is it easy? No. Is it likely? Not at all. But it is possible.


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No, it's possible for ONE class that is min/maxed. For everyone else it's possible with a one a day power AND being the specific race that grants bonuses to that skill AND a captain buff. Don't have all that? Sucks to be you. Hope you like full parties of envoys, gg best spaceship class.

Shadow Lodge

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On a related note, I started a thread about intentionally picking a lower tier ship. Link


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Awesome, thanks. Though I don't think I should have to nerf myself just to be able to succeed.

It's like, "I'm a Daytona 500 top qualifier, I'm showing up to the race in a go-kart because it's easier to control."


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Kiln Norn wrote:
“Porridge” wrote:
(We must be talking past one another. When you said "I'd still like to see math saying DC 70 is possible", I took you to mean, well, that you'd like to see how making a DC 70 check was possible. But perhaps you meant something else? Like "I'd like see math saying DC 70 is possible *given restrictions X, Y and Z*"? Or something?)

I mean show me any non min/max non envoy pulling off a DC 70 check more than once a day on an offchance he succeeds with a 1/day ability.

Better yet show me a captain pulling this off. Your example is a very light case that only works with an absolutely maxed out character. Racial bonuses, 3 max roll dice, computer bonus, and captain bonus. Without that envoy 2d8 and no captain/ themeless bonus not even an envoy can make the check.

Even with either a 1/day themeless bonus or a captain encourage no one else can make it. With both they have...

First, let me back up and say that I agree with the general points I take you to be making in this thread:

  • (1) It's extremely difficult to hit a DC 70 check given only the resources presented in the CRB.
  • (2) It shouldn't be this hard for level 20 characters to make these checks.

I agree with both of these points.

Assuming the printed numbers weren't mistakes, my hope is that the skimping they've done in the equipment section to make things fit (there are only a handful of magic items and hybrid items, for example) means they left out a bunch of potential skill-boosting items. And that once more material is released, and we get such options, there will be a lot more ways to boost these skill checks, and these high-difficulty crew actions will become more viable at high levels.

But let's put the general points (which I agree with) aside, and return to your refined possibility question.

Kiln Norn wrote:

I mean show me any non min/max non envoy pulling off a DC 70 check more than once a day on an offchance he succeeds with a 1/day ability.

Better yet show me a captain pulling this off. Your example is a very light case that only works with an absolutely maxed out character. Racial bonuses, 3 max roll dice, computer bonus, and captain bonus. Without that envoy 2d8 and no captain/ themeless bonus not even an envoy can make the check.

Even with either a 1/day themeless bonus or a captain encourage no one else can make it...

I take your refined question to be: "Is it possible for a non-Envoy, in the captain role, who doesn't use any 1/day abilities, and who isn't helped by any other player, to make the DC 70 check?"

Surprisingly, I think the answer is: yes.

Take a Level 20 Lashunta Ace Pilot Operative in the Captain role trying to make the DC 70 check to perform the Order action to help a pilot:

20 (from d20)
6 (from Operative's Edge) [insight bonus]
20 (20 ranks in Piloting)
3 (Piloting class skill)
2 (Lashunta Student ability) [racial bonus]
1 (Ace Pilot bonus) [untyped bonus]
9 (28 Dexterity)
10 (Mk 10 duonode Computer bonus) [circumstance bonus]
2 (Shuttle bonus)
1 (S6 thrusters bonus)

That hits a 74 DC.

So this non-Envoy Captain can make the Order check to help the pilot 25% of the time, without using any 1/day abilities or receiving help from any other crew members.

(An Envoy Captain could hit an 84 DC, and could make the check 40+% of the time, without using any 1/day abilities or receiving help from any other crew members.)


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OK, that's lot better answer. However you are still talking about a stupidly min/maxed character. I'd like to be able to at minimum attempt this with a character not designed for that still purpose.

Say 8 in the stat because I didn't start with an 18.

Let's say I'm not playing Lashunta, or i didn't put one of my +2's in that exact stat.

I'm not ace pilot.

And I'm not some scrub still riding in a shuttle at tier 20.

Boosters of 6 might still.

Still not accounting for having wasted one of your +10 uses, not to mention that no one is getting a captain +2 this turn.

Yes in absolute niche circumstances it might be possible, in realistic ones it is neither worth doing our even possible to do.

Shadow Lodge

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I think the question you're looking for is: "Can an Iconic pass a DC 70 check?"


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Nah, I doubt if many or any of my characters using point buy will ever start with an 18.

18 14 11 10 10 10 is not that great.

18 12 12 11 isn't much better.

It's likely that we'll see a fair number of starts with 16's given 4 upgrades every 5 levels.

I want to know how often a character with 16s can do this. Is every captain required to be an ace pilot for that +1 just to edge in on helping his pilot out?

Is every captain a Lashunta who puts his bonuses into things for starship combat?

Are we stuck with SHUTTLES for that little boost to skills?

I like playing characters, not cookie cutters. I just want that character to be able to succeed at this at least reasonably well. Right now most of the time he can't even attempt it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not everyone needs to be able to pass the highest DCs in the CRB. In fact, I think only someone specialized in the role should be able to pass it. This isn't the DC for parking your VW in an empty driveway; the tasks with a 3xTier modifier are far and away the best options. The high risk of failure should be carefully weighed against the possible rewards.

If no one in the party wants to specialize in starship operations, that's their choice. If everyone wants to be an elite engineer/pilot/etc and not have to sacrifice anything for it, your GM can always implement houserules.


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Because saying, "Quick! Do a barrel roll!" Is clearly the hardest thing ever ever.

The problem isn't that they are hard. At level 6 the DC is 28, Dard but obtainable. At level 20 it's so stupidly niche that is not worth even building for. Also, hope gig are an Envoy or an Operative because if not... well get out, we'll hire someone new.

This didn't even account for having to use the computer bonus for the captain to grant another action which is going to be severely limiting to the team because they now have one fewer bonuses to use. This ensures that this bonus action is going to be pretty mundane, as is the rest of everyone's actions because you just didn't buff anyone by +2 or +4 AND you used one of the two +10's.


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Also as gigyas stated in another thread, if I just keep my tier 10 ship but continue level I'll be in a much better place in regards to skill checks and ability performances than someone upgrading at every opportunity.

At tier 10 the highest DC is 40. Now I'm 20th level and might just autopass.

I'm fighting a tier 20. He'll succeed medium checks 30-40% of the time, hard checks much, much less if at all. We can win this just by out outmanuvering him because we don't even need dice to do anything that isn't shooting.

The problem is that all these cool things I can do with a ship are getting harder because I'm leveling up. I can take a tier 1 ship and 'Flyby' without lifting a dice. To do so in a tier 20 I would need a 55. The more powerful ship should be compensating some for this action when to a tier 1 ship it's a joke when using the same pilot.

When using a level appropriate pilot it's a DC 17 vs 55. Still well over a 50% probability for a non min/max build.


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IonutRO wrote:

Someone on Reddit recommended that the DCs could be fixed by being changed like so, with the CRB DCs on the left and the changes on the right.

10+2*tier -> 10+1.5*tier
15+2*tier -> 15+1.5*tier
20+2*tier -> 20+1.5*tier
10+3*tier -> 25+1.5*tier

These make way more sense and allows non-ultra-specialized skill monkeys to hit most of the DCs and completely remove the impossible DCs entirely once you factor in a decent on-board computer.

EDIT: Here's some maths that shows what the changes do: Original maths vs altered maths.

For me personally, I'd probably change the last DC (which is easier in low tiers, and harder in high tiers) to be 10+2.5*tier (rounded up).

This will keep all the DCs in the same pattern as is currently in the book as well as achieving the outcome of DCs not ramping up and becoming harder as a ship's tier increases (provided that the character keeps up with putting skill ranks into their starship role's key skill).

Apologies if this has already been hashed out earlier in the conversation.


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Note: The rules say that a challenging Skill DC should be 15 + (1.5 * APL) and that increasing that by 10 would make it "prohibitively high".
For level 20, that ends up being DC 55. So even the book says that the DC shouldn't be anywhere near 70.


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This doesn't addresse a higher level character on a low tier ship.


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I still don't understand why ships become harder to fly simply because they're better built... that's sort of the opposite of what's meant to happen.


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My thoughts exactly. There is the high performance vehicle arguments people have been making but they are a bit of a fallacy. Yes, the vehicle has more power but driving it is roughly the same as any other vehicle until you put more power down. When you do it is a bit harder to -learn- to control but one you have that understanding the new things the extra power allows you to do are open to you.

Sure, if you fail the consequences are much higher. But pressing down a gas petal, pulling a lever, or pressing 'execute' on a computer are not harder from one vehicle to the next.

A turn and burn might require you to cut power to the engines, flip the ship around and reengage the power in six seconds. At tier one you might have to do this manually. At tier 20 why is there not a built in way to do this, or sine rapid access because you are some hotshot pilot that knows what he's doing? By that point this should be something you are really prepared to execute without question.

Grand Lodge

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I'm going with...

My 10' Zodiac with a motor is tier 1. Most people could get the outboard fired up and running... an aircraft carrier is tier 20 and most people wouldn't know where to start.

Now you'd say, well, what about the Zodiac when it's tier 20? Well, we have to add all the features that come with leveling, making it unrealistic to be a tier 20 Zodiac, and also, much more difficult to use.

It's also going to be easier to perform a fancy maneuver in a Zodiac then in an aircraft carrier.

Two similarly sized ships... I'd call the Serenity low tier and the Rocinante high tier. One is pretty simple and the other is more complicated.

Oh yeah... and the DC 70 IS probably a mistake... and I like there being a roughly 50% chance of success for the DC 50 area. Auto succeed is silly.


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So wait is this about the DC being impossible or it not being high enough? I think a impossible DC may be a mistake. creating a ship no one can drive seems like a problem. I see someone got it up to 84 but that looks like it took everything possible to get it there. So the engineer was like hmm I don't think anyone I can imagine can drive this thing but here it is anyways. I think you would have to fire that guy.


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Ryan while you aren't wrong there are other ideas there.

Does a Nissan 350Z with aftermarket parts and racing flats or a stock Saturn SL2 drift easier?


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Kiln Norn wrote:

While you aren't wrong there are other ideas there.

Does a Nissan 350Z with aftermarket parts and racing flats or a stock Saturn SL2 drift easier?

I for one have absolutely no idea.


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It's the perfect crime.


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Or should I just say races better?


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I would still probably be guessing but I would be closer to seeing what your saying.

Grand Lodge

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Kiln Norn wrote:

Ryan while you aren't wrong there are other ideas there.

Does a Nissan 350Z with aftermarket parts and racing flats or a stock Saturn SL2 drift easier?

Because souped-up cars take more skill to drive just youtube idiots in their sports cars

I would agree that the Saturn shouldn't be ABLE to drift. But also would say a low level driver could quickly turn a Saturn around easier than they could quickly turn a souped-up Nissan around. (There's a video I saw posted recently that showed a police officer (high level driver) not knowing how to put a lambo (high tier car) in park.)

EDIT: You said races better. Yes it would, but put a tier 1 driver in a race car... again, in a high-tier race car... they'll crash.

Now, if you took your Saturn and just kept making it "better"... yes, it seems like it should be easier to do things with it. But really, a Saturn is going to go from about tier 1 to tier 2 and max out.

I think given the need to keep the rules manageable, balanced, and interesting, it is ONE method that works ok (and might start to fall apart at level 20... but only if the DC 70 ISN'T a mistake.)

I think it will work for me fine in my level 1-12 SFS play, and my campaign play that will probably max at 15-16. I also think we'll see new materials that will boost the character abilities.


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Kiln Norn wrote:
Quote:
How are you getting around the fact that RAW, expertise die (and operative's edge) don't work for crew actions? That 84 DC (with 3 perfect rolls on a char optimized specifically to pass crew action checks) becomes 68 without True Expertise.
There's an unofficial FAQ on thier twitter, I believe it was twitter, that said things that modified skills still worked. It'll be that way until at least this weekend when an actual errata drops.

Thanks. It's too bad that even if that becomes official errata, it doesn't do anything to address the problem that every crew action gets harder and harder to do as the group levels up.


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RyanH wrote:
Kiln Norn wrote:

Ryan while you aren't wrong there are other ideas there.

Does a Nissan 350Z with aftermarket parts and racing flats or a stock Saturn SL2 drift easier?

Because souped-up cars take more skill to drive just youtube idiots in their sports cars

I would agree that the Saturn shouldn't be ABLE to drift. But also would say a low level driver could quickly turn a Saturn around easier than they could quickly turn a souped-up Nissan around. (There's a video I saw posted recently that showed a police officer (high level driver) not knowing how to put a lambo (high tier car) in park.)

EDIT: You said races better. Yes it would, but put a tier 1 driver in a race car... again, in a high-tier race car... they'll crash.

Now, if you took your Saturn and just kept making it "better"... yes, it seems like it should be easier to do things with it. But really, a Saturn is going to go from about tier 1 to tier 2 and max out.

I think given the need to keep the rules manageable, balanced, and interesting, it is ONE method that works ok (and might start to fall apart at level 20... but only if the DC 70 ISN'T a mistake.)

I think it will work for me fine in my level 1-12 SFS play, and my campaign play that will probably max at 15-16. I also think we'll see new materials that will boost the character abilities.

I don't disagree with most of what you said here. The problem is that police officer (high tier driver) could get into the SL2 and burn donuts around an equivalent tier in the Lambo. That's because the Lambo's DC might be 64 where the SL2 is 16. Guess who wins.

I'm not saying that things need to be a cake walk at high tier. I'm saying that you should be able to do them and have improved in doing them in some meaningful way besides, 'I can now also do this other new thing if I make my check.'

A system where your check to do the exact same thing always stays the same or actually grows steadily harder removes the feeling that you are getting better as a character. When there is no feeling of progression or improvement what's the payoff? I won't argue that pulling trick turns in a Juggernaut should be very hard. Flipping a full 360 in a fighter though shouldn't be by that level. (I know these things are not the hardest DC's in the book but I'm just using them to illustrate this.)


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g0del wrote:
Kiln Norn wrote:
Quote:
How are you getting around the fact that RAW, expertise die (and operative's edge) don't work for crew actions? That 84 DC (with 3 perfect rolls on a char optimized specifically to pass crew action checks) becomes 68 without True Expertise.
There's an unofficial FAQ on thier twitter, I believe it was twitter, that said things that modified skills still worked. It'll be that way until at least this weekend when an actual errata drops.
Thanks. It's too bad that even if that becomes official errata, it doesn't do anything to address the problem that every crew action gets harder and harder to do as the group levels up.

The real problem is actually that this makes Envoy and Operative the absolute best starship characters in the game and shoehorns soldiers and solarians into gunners. It also kicks most mystic characters in the mouth.


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Heck, soldiers and Solarians don't even have much to do on the gunnery front as you can use ranks in piloting instead of BAB so their one applicable feature (Good BAB) doesn't really give them a unique place.

Shadow Lodge

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Well, soldiers really shouldn't be operating ships. I mean, they're grunts. You don't really want a grunt to fly a ship around. Or do anything on a ship except stand around waiting to get off so they can shoot things.


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At first level a soldier may be a grunt - although I'd hope there are other options. At 5th or 10th, to say nothing of higher levels, they should be something more.


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bookrat wrote:
Well, soldiers really shouldn't be operating ships. I mean, they're grunts. You don't really want a grunt to fly a ship around. Or do anything on a ship except stand around waiting to get off so they can shoot things.

I dislike that opinion immensely. Ship combat may end up taking a significant amount of table time. If a soldier cannot contribute during this time, then the experience becomes less fun for the player of the soldier.


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bookrat wrote:
Well, soldiers really shouldn't be operating ships. I mean, they're grunts. You don't really want a grunt to fly a ship around. Or do anything on a ship except stand around waiting to get off so they can shoot things.

Yes, because Worf never had anything to do in space combat. The role of Tactical Officer and Security Officer are kinda big roles in space combat.

The lack of rules for boarding actions and similar things really hurts Starfinder's soldiers. I mean, the recently released Star Trek RPG was imperfect on that front but it let everyone contribute to a space combat. If boarders got onto your ship, the Security Officer could roll Daring+Security to take a security team down and drive them off/capture them. Or they could ruin the day of another ship if they could get on board it.

Which is a serious issue I have with Starfinder's space combat. It's options are almost entirely 'Move' or 'Shoot'. Where is the option for the science officer to play funny guy with the deflector dish and mess with the enemy ship? Or the engineer to unleash a virus. Or the technomancer to use that onboard thaumaturgy lab to pull a ritual out to disrupt the enemy ship? Heck, said Star Trek RPG managed to do it all with a single 'action' (Create an Advantage) with a few options for how to roll it and the results of success.


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Ikiry0 wrote:
Where is the option for the science officer to play funny guy with the deflector dish and mess with the enemy ship?

I think I did see that in their actually.


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Milo v3 wrote:
I think I did see that in their actually.

Sadly, the closest there is to that is Improve Countermeasures, which reduces accuracy against you. Not quite the sort of technobabble shenanigans I was leaning towards.

It would have been nice to have each class get a couple of 'You can do X in space combat' abilities.

Liberty's Edge

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I don't think any DCs should increase exponentially, I don't get why it's not just 15+tier. You are usually only boosting your skills by 1 each level.

Shadow Lodge

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Sorry, guys. A bit of context:

I was literally a soldier (got out of the army about 12 years ago) and soldiers tend to be my favorite class. I was more poking fun at the idea of a soldier being mechanically unable to be better at firing a ships gun along with them being a grunt than making a serious comment that the soldier class shouldn't be allowed to do anything.

But I didn't make that clear because of lack of coffee. Its what I get for posting at 5 am.


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Two points, just to help us see the landscape here a bit more clearly.

1. It is possible for any class to make the DC 70 checks.

(E.g., in the Engineering example I gave above, replace the Envoy with a Soldier with Skill Synergy and Skill Focus, and they'll be able to hit a 71 DC. And in the captain example I gave above, replace the Operative with a Soldier with Skill Focus, and they'll be able to hit a 71 DC.)

But, of course, it'll be extremely difficult. (In optimal circumstances, the Soldier will be able to hit DC 70 checks 10% of the time.)

2. I think the suggestion that the natural way to divide classes by starship combat effectiveness is to group the Envoy and Operative on one side, and the rest of the classes on the other, is misleading. For one, the Envoy is definitely better off than the Operative. For another, the Operative isn't really better off than (say) the Mechanic or Technomancer (though they are more flexible with respect to what roles they can play).

I think a more nuanced division of the classes, by starship combat effectiveness, will look something like this:

--Group 1 (most effective): Envoy (at lvl 20, can get an average of a +9 insight bonus to most key starship skills)

--Group 2 (effective): Operative, Mechanic, Technomancer, Mystics with Mindbreaker, Overlord or Star Shaman connections (at lvl 20, get a +6 insight bonus to at least one of the key starship skills)

--Group 3 (least effective): Solarian, Soldier (no class insight bonus to key starship skills, but have full BAB, and usually have a high dex, which allows them to be good Gunners without having to sink any skill points into Piloting), Mystics with other connections (no class insight bonus to key starship skills, 3/4 BAB, but can take Piloting skill and shore up dex to allow them to be good Gunners (whether Piloting is a class skill or not doesn't matter for the purposes of being a Gunner))


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bookrat wrote:

Sorry, guys. A bit of context:

I was literally a soldier (got out of the army about 12 years ago) and soldiers tend to be my favorite class. I was more poking fun at the idea of a soldier being mechanically unable to be better at firing a ships gun along with them being a grunt than making a serious comment that the soldier class shouldn't be allowed to do anything.

But I didn't make that clear because of lack of coffee. Its what I get for posting at 5 am.

I'd say outside of infantry grunts and similar most real world soldiers are one level of fighter(PF)/soldier(SF) and then additional levels in a skill class. In Starfinder terms I'd expect most commissioned officers to be a Soldier 1/Envoy X.


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Xenocrat wrote:
I'd say outside of infantry grunts and similar most real world soldiers are one level of fighter(PF)/soldier(SF) and then additional levels in a skill class. In Starfinder terms I'd expect most commissioned officers to be a Soldier 1/Envoy X.

Then what is a level 20 Soldier? As that's far beyond a grunt.

Shadow Lodge

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Ikiry0 wrote:
Then what is a level 20 Soldier? As that's far beyond a grunt.

Career Grunt.


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Ikiry0 wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I'd say outside of infantry grunts and similar most real world soldiers are one level of fighter(PF)/soldier(SF) and then additional levels in a skill class. In Starfinder terms I'd expect most commissioned officers to be a Soldier 1/Envoy X.
Then what is a level 20 Soldier? As that's far beyond a grunt.

A highly experienced NCO (sergeant+) with a legendary reputation and a lot of medals?


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Porridge wrote:

(E.g., in the Engineering example I gave above, replace the Envoy with a Soldier with Skill Synergy and Skill Focus, and they'll be able to hit a 71 DC. And in the captain example I gave above, replace the Operative with a Soldier with Skill Focus, and they'll be able to hit a 71 DC.)

Except that it's really not. You are relying there on two feats that are both insight bonuses. Skill Focus is a +3 insight bonus and Skill Synergy is a +2 insight bonus and thus don't stack.

9 stat 9
20 ranks 29
3 class skill 32
2 captain 34
3 insight 37
10 computer 47
2 captain 49

Still can't make 70 on a roll of a 20. A Ysoki can do it as can a Lashunta who decided it wanted Engineering as it's racial. But that's it, and that is with the captain deciding buffing you for a 10% chance is worth trying, which it really isn't. I'd rather reinforce a sure thing than try to support a long shot that is 90% certain to fail.

Awesome actions will NOT be used if their chance of success is only 10%. If they are ~30% people might use them. This also doesn't solve the issues that for the captain to give someone another action he has to use one of the two computer +10's which ensures that whatever extra action is granted can't be a big one, nor can almost anything else done that turn because all of those checks are being done at -10.

This is also again assuming that you started with an 18 in a relevant stat and can do literally nothing else with your character save punch things or shoot them with a gun or talk your way out of stuff or or or or or or.


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Ikiry0 wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
I'd say outside of infantry grunts and similar most real world soldiers are one level of fighter(PF)/soldier(SF) and then additional levels in a skill class. In Starfinder terms I'd expect most commissioned officers to be a Soldier 1/Envoy X.
Then what is a level 20 Soldier? As that's far beyond a grunt.

Some Delta Force legendary sergeant.

Audie Murphy in PF terms was something like a Fighter 12. Napoleon was a Fighter 1/Expert 14 with lots of ranks in Knowledge (Engineering), Profession (Soldier), Bluff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy.


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Kiln Norn wrote:
Porridge wrote:

(E.g., in the Engineering example I gave above, replace the Envoy with a Soldier with Skill Synergy and Skill Focus, and they'll be able to hit a 71 DC. And in the captain example I gave above, replace the Operative with a Soldier with Skill Focus, and they'll be able to hit a 71 DC.)

Except that it's really not. You are relying there on two feats that are both insight bonuses. Skill Focus is a +3 insight bonus and Skill Synergy is a +2 insight bonus and thus don't stack.

Yeah, I wasn’t taking them both to contribute insight bonuses, only Skill Focus. The Skill Synergy was to give the Soldier (or whatever class we were looking at) the relevant skill as a class skill.

So to spell it out:

--Example 1. For the DC 70 Overpower Engineering check:

Take a 20th lvl Lashunta Themeless Soldier in the Engineering role trying to make the DC 70 Engineering check to do the Overpower crew action:


  • 20 (from d20) 
  • 
3 (from Skill Focus) [insight bonus] 

  • 20 (20 ranks in Engineering) 
3 (Engineering class skill bonus, obtained from Skill Synergy) 

  • 2 (Lashunta Student ability) [racial bonus] 

  • 2 (Themeless Certainty ability 1/day) [untyped bonus] 

  • 9 (28 Intelligence) 
  • 
2 (Encourage bonus from Captain) [untyped bonus] 

  • 10 (Mk 10 duonode Computer bonus) [circumstance bonus]
That allows us to hit a DC of 71.

--Example 2. For the DC 70 Orders Piloting check:

Take a Level 20 Lashunta Ace Pilot Soldier in the Captain role trying to make the DC 70 check to perform the Order action to help a pilot:

  • 20 (from d20) 
  • 
3 (from Skill Focus) [insight bonus] 

  • 20 (20 ranks in Piloting) 
  • 
3 (Piloting class skill) 

  • 2 (Lashunta Student ability) [racial bonus] 

  • 1 (Ace Pilot bonus) [untyped bonus] 

  • 9 (28 Dexterity) 
  • 
10 (Mk 10 duonode Computer bonus) [circumstance bonus] 
  • 
2 (Shuttle bonus) 
  • 
1 (S6 thrusters bonus)
Again, that allows us to hit a DC of 71.

So, as I noted above, it’s possible for any class to make a DC 70 check.

Of course, as I noted above:

Porridge wrote:
But, of course, it'll be extremely difficult. (In optimal circumstances, the Soldier will be able to hit DC 70 checks 10% of the time.)

Since a Soldier needs a 19 or 20 to make the check, they only have a 10% chance of success, even with this min/maxed build, in optimal circumstances.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

You are assuming that every single person in the game is Lashunta WITH the student in the ability they are doing, or a Ysoki engineer or a Shirren captain. STOP.

Also, your calculations are always giving your people the absolutely BEST circumstances. Such as, using a SHUTTLE at tier 20 as an example of 'you can make piloting checks as long as you are doing this thing.'

It's a poor argument technique, learn better ones. Or you know, do relevant to the problem math. Such as, you are a Human, a Vesk, a Android, a Lashunta who put student points in things that aren't going to help with this one singular specific task, a Ysoki captain, a Shirren engineer, or anything else that isn't so stupidly maximized as 'everyone is playing Lashunta with student in their starship role that supports my claim that every class can do their part because they are the single best race in the game to prove things with.' Also, stop bringing up the one and only relevant theme as a way to say all ship actions are possible.

Also I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that we are going to see a fair number of characters that don't start the game with 18's in one stat, even less likely so that they can specialize into space combat.

In your engineering example earlier, did that soldier start with an 18 int? Because that's just stupid on part of the character. Like... absurd levels of stupid. He might do ship stuff alright occasionally but he's not worth anything anywhere else.

TLDR - Asari superiority isn't a valid arguement for every class is capable of doing this thing we are talking about.


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Kiln Norn wrote:

You are assuming that every single person in the game is Lashunta WITH the student in the ability they are doing, or a Ysoki engineer or a Shirren captain. STOP.

Also, your calculations are always giving your people the absolutely BEST circumstances. Such as, using a SHUTTLE at tier 20 as an example of 'you can make piloting checks as long as you are doing this thing.'

It's a poor argument technique, learn better ones. Or you know, do relevant to the problem math. Such as, you are a Human, a Vesk, a Android, a Lashunta who put student points in things that aren't going to help with this one singular specific task, a Ysoki captain, a Shirren engineer, or anything else that isn't so stupidly maximized as 'everyone is playing Lashunta with student in their starship role that supports my claim that every class can do their part because they are the single best race in the game to prove things with.' Also, stop bringing up the one and only relevant theme as a way to say all ship actions are possible.

Also I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that we are going to see a fair number of characters that don't start the game with 18's in one stat, even less likely so that they can specialize into space combat.

In your engineering example earlier, did that soldier start with an 18 int? Because that's just stupid on part of the character. Like... absurd levels of stupid. He might do ship stuff alright occasionally but he's not worth anything anywhere else.

TLDR - Asari superiority isn't a valid arguement for every class is capable of doing this thing we are talking about.

All he's saying is the rolls are possible. No need to be so harsh. I don't think you're reading what he's saying, "possible"


citricking wrote:
Kiln Norn wrote:

You are assuming that every single person in the game is Lashunta WITH the student in the ability they are doing, or a Ysoki engineer or a Shirren captain. STOP.

Also, your calculations are always giving your people the absolutely BEST circumstances. Such as, using a SHUTTLE at tier 20 as an example of 'you can make piloting checks as long as you are doing this thing.'

It's a poor argument technique, learn better ones. Or you know, do relevant to the problem math. Such as, you are a Human, a Vesk, a Android, a Lashunta who put student points in things that aren't going to help with this one singular specific task, a Ysoki captain, a Shirren engineer, or anything else that isn't so stupidly maximized as 'everyone is playing Lashunta with student in their starship role that supports my claim that every class can do their part because they are the single best race in the game to prove things with.' Also, stop bringing up the one and only relevant theme as a way to say all ship actions are possible.

Also I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that we are going to see a fair number of characters that don't start the game with 18's in one stat, even less likely so that they can specialize into space combat.

In your engineering example earlier, did that soldier start with an 18 int? Because that's just stupid on part of the character. Like... absurd levels of stupid. He might do ship stuff alright occasionally but he's not worth anything anywhere else.

TLDR - Asari superiority isn't a valid arguement for every class is capable of doing this thing we are talking about.

All he's saying is the rolls are possible. No need to be so harsh. I don't think you're reading what he's saying, "possible"

Yes, but having to jump through so many specific hoops to make it possible isn't really helping the discussion. It's possible to roll two consecutive natural 20s, but I wouldn't suggest building a game that relies on it. It's possible I'll get hit by a bus on the way to get the mail tonight, but it's not likely enough to factor into my plans :)

I'd wager very few players would even bother attempting a maneuver with only a 10% chance of sucess. So the fact it's technically possible, doesn't mean it isn't wonky.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

The point he's making is yes, everything 'possible.' It's possible under the absolute best circumstances and situations. It's 'possible' if you are Lashunta master race. It's 'possible' if you min/max everything at the cost of everything else.

It is NOT possible if you are playing anything other than those specific circumstances, races, or one of two classes. So yes, if I min/max a soldier into INT I can do engineering stuff with him IF he's a Lashunta or Ysoki. But when are you going to literally EVER see that character? It's just not going to happen.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kiln Norn wrote:

You are assuming that every single person in the game is Lashunta WITH the student in the ability they are doing, or a Ysoki engineer or a Shirren captain. STOP.

Also, your calculations are always giving your people the absolutely BEST circumstances. Such as, using a SHUTTLE at tier 20 as an example of 'you can make piloting checks as long as you are doing this thing.'

It's a poor argument technique, learn better ones. Or you know, do relevant to the problem math. Such as, you are a Human, a Vesk, a Android, a Lashunta who put student points in things that aren't going to help with this one singular specific task, a Ysoki captain, a Shirren engineer, or anything else that isn't so stupidly maximized as 'everyone is playing Lashunta with student in their starship role that supports my claim that every class can do their part because they are the single best race in the game to prove things with.' Also, stop bringing up the one and only relevant theme as a way to say all ship actions are possible.

Also I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that we are going to see a fair number of characters that don't start the game with 18's in one stat, even less likely so that they can specialize into space combat.

In your engineering example earlier, did that soldier start with an 18 int? Because that's just stupid on part of the character. Like... absurd levels of stupid. He might do ship stuff alright occasionally but he's not worth anything anywhere else.

TLDR - Asari superiority isn't a valid arguement for every class is capable of doing this thing we are talking about.

Um... you're ascribing an argument to him that he's not making.

In your words,

Kiln Norn wrote:
STOP.

... please. I am being educated by the two of you pointing out solid arguments, and would like to continue to be.

Telling him, "No, shut up." is poor form, especially when he's explicitly acknowledged that not only does he agree with the premise of the thread (that the DCs are too high, and need to be retooled, because of the absurdity) but that it's unlikely in every regard (and he even pointed out how very unlikely it was).

You're literally arguing with him because he's not agreeing with you hard enough and that does nothing but alienate potential allies.

Reef wrote:

Yes, but having to jump through so many specific hoops to make it possible isn't really helping the discussion. It's possible to roll two consecutive natural 20s, but I wouldn't suggest building a game that relies on it. It's possible I'll get hit by a bus on the way to get the mail tonight, but it's not likely enough to factor into my plans :)

I'd wager very few players would even bother attempting a maneuver with only a 10% chance of sucess. So the fact it's technically possible, doesn't mean it isn't wonky.

... but he is also suggesting that such things are wonky, even when showing his math. He agrees that the DCs are off, but has proven it is technically possible, and is being attacked for it.

That is silly.

"Agree with me more!" is not really a reasonable position for anyone to take a hardline stance on.

Again: I AGREE WITH THE PREMISE OF THE THREAD.

Just in case it's not clear:

I AGREE WITH THE PREMISE OF THE THREAD.

The DCs seem way too daggum high. Way too daggum high.

That said, the opposition he's generating is... kind of weird.

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