My 4th Fighter Rework, this time with less convolution. Help with Clean up and reviews wanted.


Homebrew and House Rules


So a while ago I posted not one, or two, but 3 different write ups of the fighter class rework based on trying to undo their need for feats with more powerful and specialized abilities. I suppose in a way I was stubbornly trying to make these abilities work because I have a sickening need to try and bring Martials up to casters in some capacity (maneuvers not withstanding). This time around I took a long look at what people like about the fighter class and what I don't like about it, to try and meet in the middle with something less convoluted and packed with different kinds of mechanics.

What I've tried to do here is meet a couple of design criteria.
1: To make the Fighter more interesting to play at all levels.

2: To hopefully reduce the amount of "tiny numbers" that may or may not mean much to the class itself such as bravery.

3: To increase the fighter's power level without going too far.

4: To incorporate some of the new features like Stamina that many people seem to enjoy, even if I myself don't think it it's a great mechanic overall. It's better than reinventing the wheel again.

5: To enable the use of fighters who aren't just big bruisers, with fighters being more tactical, intelligent, and actually variable in their playstyles.

6: To learn from my previous mistakes of going too far overboard with mechanical complexity.

I'm really hoping that this time I've been able to bring something more fitting to the table, but if not I can always go back to the drawing board. I make these for my players, but I do want to have them meet a sort of approval from the more experienced people out there, and this board has rarely let me down in good feedback or criticism.

Without further ado, here is the Fighter 4.0 (for me at least)


Any thoughts?


I have my own house variant fighter which is on version 5. We have played with the newest one for about five months now. I read your version a few times and we decided to put it through a test run on a mini we are running along with our house version.

Give you some feed back after the weekend. I will also post our house version so you can compare. We play with a few house rules and the bulk of our group has been playing together since the 90's. A few of us have been gaming since the early 80's.

Just so you know where the feedback is coming from. :)

SD


I've only taken a quick scan but this seems fair.

Few things

1) Swift strike is kinda just cornugon smash+hurtful without the intimidate, don't know if you want to do anything about that but it seemed worth saying
2) the wording of counter strike is confusing
3) this sentence doesn't need may in it "Additionally she may only needs to eat and sleep"


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I've only taken a quick scan but this seems fair.

Few things

1) Swift strike is kinda just cornugon smash+hurtful without the intimidate, don't know if you want to do anything about that but it seemed worth saying
2) the wording of counter strike is confusing
3) this sentence doesn't need may in it "Additionally she may only needs to eat and sleep"

Thanks for pointing out the May part, I sometimes add more words I didn't mean too when typing too fast.

I will try and clear up the wording best I can. I admit sometimes it makes sense when I write it out first, but my phrasing sometimes needs work.

Never having seen the Hurtful feat before I will agree they are similar, but they don't exactly function the same or for the same reasons. Swift Strikes is supposed to assist in action economy and reduce Full Attack reliance without feat investment. Do you think there might be some issues of stacking the effects?


ALLENDM wrote:

I have my own house variant fighter which is on version 5. We have played with the newest one for about five months now. I read your version a few times and we decided to put it through a test run on a mini we are running along with our house version.

Give you some feed back after the weekend. I will also post our house version so you can compare. We play with a few house rules and the bulk of our group has been playing together since the 90's. A few of us have been gaming since the early 80's.

Just so you know where the feedback is coming from. :)

SD

That sounds awesome! I would love to hear how it went and to see your own groups version. I really look forward to the feed back :)


I the effects both use your swift action and therefore explicitly do not stack, so no, just thought it might be worth mentioning.

Liberty's Edge

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Gonna start by saying there are a number of things I do like about the build, but from a design standpoint, it's got a lot of issues.

  • Weapon masteries should appear on the table at every level you gain a new abilities.
  • Rudimentary skill does nothing when you get it. It also provides as many skill unlocks as the unchained rogue, and earlier as well, meaning there's little reason to take unchained rogue if you're looking for skill unlocks. Also there's little reason to give them the signature skill feat instead of just giving them the skill unlocks.
  • In examine the enemy, "if it knows maneuvers" doesn't make sense because everyone knows maneuvers, but not everyone is proficient enough to not provoke while performing them.
  • Swift strikes comes way too early. It's possible for this fighter to make 3 attacks as a standard action before other Full Bab classes can make 2 attacks as a full attack action. Also manyshot doesn't apply to a standard action attack, but a feat like Vital Strike would.
  • Counterstrike essentially allows a fighter to make all of their attacks at full BAB, assuming the enemy has enough attacks to trigger the attacks of opportunity. That might be the power level you were aiming for, but it is incredibly powerful, along the lines of Come and Get Me, with less drawback. Also, the line "The fighter makes these attacks of opportunity before the results of the creature attacking her are revealed." needs clarification. It should probably be the attack of opportunity resolves before the attack that triggers it, because if the attack happens before the counter-attack, it's important to know if the fighter might be knocked unconscious, or grappled, or have a debuff applied. If it's meant to mean that the fighter ignores certain effects, and still makes the attack, even if going unconscious, it should say so.
  • Decisive Blow combined with a x4 weapon, or two x3 light weapons essentially allows you to trade your worst attack for possibly an extra 12 to 14 times your regular attack damage. Even with a 2 stamina cost, that's way too much damage.
  • The increased stamina regeneration abilities are nice, but they also mean that a fighter will almost always start a fight with max stamina, which makes the stamina costs for abilities a little trivial. With the damage output of the class, they'll likely run out of enemies before they run out of stamina.
  • The Lightning Strikes weapon mastery should be rephrased because two weapon fighting doesn't provide an extra attack, only the improved and greater feats provide that benefit.
  • Polearm Discipline should likely have it's text changed from "This ability overlaps with the AoOs granted by Combat Reflexes." to something like "The attacks of opportunity provided by this ability are in addition to the additional attacks of opportunity provided by combat reflexes."
  • Halting Iron, unless a supernatural ability, shouldn't be able to do anything retroactively. Stopping them in their tracks is fine, but you're not hitting people so hard they feel it in the past. I mean, I assume you're not.
  • Field of Spears can apply up to a -5 penalty to attacks, saves and skill checks for no action. Most debuffers require at least a swift action, usually target a single creature, is usually mind-affecting, and usually only have a -3 to -4 debuff to a single one of these, not all of them.
  • Wreath of blades makes you a better swashbuckler than the swashbuckler, especially if combined with counterstrike to eliminate the attack penalty on lower iterative attacks.
  • At this point, I'm just going to state that most of the weapon masteries are either 3-4 feats worth of abilities, or somewhere along with mythic in terms of power level. This may be what you're aiming for, but it means every martial needs to be re-written to compete with it.
So, there's a fair amount of criticism here, but I don't want to come off as if I hate the alternate fighter class. There's some good stuff here, it's just too much good stuff piled on top of each other, plus a few formatting and wording errors. Combat training allowing the fighter to apply feats to the entire weapon group is something I've always felt should be a basic fighter ability. I love the guarded mind ability, and the fighter's resilience is good too, though I would likely have had it only affect fortitude. There's some good stuff here, but I definitely think there needs to be a 5.0 to get it more balanced. But like I said, if that's what you're going for, feel free to ignore the balance criticisms. Looks like it would be fun to play, so if that's the only goal, looks like you succeeded.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
A bunch of good stuff

No amount of criticism is inherently bad in my book. And you make some good points I hadn't immediately considered so no worries! I'll try and address your points in order.

1: I can agree with this, I mainly had done that because it was easier to keep it ordered while rearranging things, but I can just put them on the class table.

2: What do you mean? As far as I was aware getting the signature skill feat would give you the 5 rank unlock 3 levels early which would be something. I did not, however, realize that the unchained rogue got so few of them themselves. Honestly I don't have many ideas on what to do about that just because I don't know what I would replace some of the levels with if I reduced the amount right now, but I can try and think of something. As for why I went with signature skill, I was under the impression that the unchained rogue got the unlocks because of its unique class ability and that this was how everyone else did it, so it made sense in my head for that to be how to go about it. Would you word it just similar to the unchained rogue?

3: This is a bit of a weird clarification, but I meant Maneuvers as in Path of War/Tome of Battle maneuvers, not "Combat Maneuvers" which is usually the term used in base Pathfinder. I was worried I might run into an issue like that, but I don't know what else to call them since that's what they ARE called.

4: How are they getting 3 attacks exactly? I can maybe think of cleave. Oh, wait Rapid Shot could do it too now that I'm typing this. The thing is I don't really feel like it comes on too early when you do take a -2 on the rolls for all attacks that round in addition to anything else. I can definitely see adding a line about not being able to do any MORE than the extra attack though. The manyshot line I don't actually remember why I left it there, probably thought it did, but I can remove it.

5: I'm a little confused how counterstrike does that. It's giving up the attack you get at lowest bab in a full round (like at level 12 you don't get to make your +2 attack from bab). You still take all the normal bab negatives for any OTHER attacks and would only get to even attempt 2 out of 3 of them. However yes you're right I should have been clearer when typing it out. I often have to work on these at early or late hours when I'm not in the best mental state for clarity so it's a big help when areas I need to fix are pointed out. Also, is it clear enough that you only get to make 1 attack for every one you sacrifice? I don't know if I made that clear enough. The idea would be that if you were using a big two hander with fewer attacks you would maybe get 1, but if you were two-weapon fighting you could sacrifice more and get more free attacks to use on people (but still only 1 per person) for a dervish sort of feel.

6: Is it that bad considering the level it's gained at? If so I can think of something, but I was just thinking that damage isn't all that strong by level 18 when magic is just bananas Save-Or-Dies anyway, and so still needing to run up and full attack something wasn't a great idea in the first place (or sometimes possible). I can certainly see making it for just a single attack instead if it's just flat too much damage for sure. I really wasn't thinking of the x4 stuff when putting it down.

7: You think? I have never played with stamina because the normal uses for it never wowed me enough to really catch an eye, but I wholly admit that I might have made the costs on abilities a little too low. Part of it was just the nature of how overcosted some of the feat uses for stamina seemed to be, and so I started low to see if it was too trivial. Would increasing the costs make them feel more rewarding for having better returns than other classes?

8: Good point I didn't really think about it. would a better phrasing be "These bonuses replace any bonuses you would receive from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and it's Improved or Greater versions." or something like that?

9: I can certainly change around that wording.

10: Well the idea wasn't meant to be implied to be hitting them "in the past". It's intended to mean that if for example, a creature with a 30ft move speed moved 20ft and then provoked an AOO from you by moving through your square, that if it hit their speed would be reduced to only 15ft. Since they have ALREADY moved more than their (now reduced) 'base' movement for the round, you effectively close line them with your polearm and they fall on their butt. Would there be a better way to phrase that?

11: That's a fair assement, it probably is a biiiit much. How about reducing Attacks, CMD, and CMB by something -1 per 6 levels. Thats -1 at 7th (the earliest you can get the ability) and only -3 at level 18.

12: Even with the -4 on all attacks beforehand if you want to do it? I figured the lack of doing any reliable damage on the turn you did it would balance the potential attack negation and subsequent AOO, since you're getting only 1 attack instead of possibly more. Also getting it 3 levels later was something I thought would balance it out. I admit I'm not all that impressed by the swashbuckler personally, but while I do want the fighter to be the "guy that can do almost anything" as a build, I don't want to step on toes. How would you adjust it to balance the ability out?

13: Mythic tier stuff was not the intention no, but the aim of these to be 2-3 feats worth of power is intentional. 3-4 worth is pushing it and where I will say that yeah I can reduce power for sure. I've always found part of the problem with martials is that feats are just often too weak or too difficult to grab and make use of reliably so instead of giving them 20 feats, I figured a fighter with maybe 5 abilities worth 2-3 feats each would be a better solution for earlier levels and give a better ability to do more than one trick for their whole career. At least that's the INTENTION.

I am glad to hear some of the ideas are winners though! That's the best sign that things have promise after all. I actually and really satisfied with Combat Training myself, since in its own way not adding any actual DAMAGE bonuses means that I was able to give them more dynamic areas of damage instead of "I use a longsword really well". You're not wrong that a 5.0 is highly likely, but hey that's why I brought it here! I don't have all the time in the world and don't often see the mistakes I make when I'm plowing out ideas, so having more observant or even cynical people give thoughts is the best way to improve. I do want the fighter to be powerful, about maybe mid-high tier 3ish is the ultimate goal. I don't want it overshooting any AM BARBARIANs or anything, but a fighter that can be both versatile and competitive with a more optimized team would be the ideal. Also my intention is to reduce the amount of total system mastery that is required to do so, so that the fighter is still beginner friendly.
Again thanks for such an in-depth look through and I hope you'll keep an eye out for more things you enjoy!

Liberty's Edge

Naoki00 wrote:
2: What do you mean? As far as I was aware getting the signature skill feat would give you the 5 rank unlock 3 levels early which would be something... Would you word it just similar to the unchained rogue?

The skill unlocks only happen when you have 5 ranks in the skill, so at level 2 it doesn't do anything. And I probably would just word it like the unchained rogue.

Naoki00 wrote:
3: This is a bit of a weird clarification, but I meant Maneuvers as in Path of War/Tome of Battle maneuvers, not "Combat Maneuvers" which is usually the term used in base Pathfinder. I was worried I might run into an issue like that, but I don't know what else to call them since that's what they ARE called.

Fair enough. It might be worth phrasing it as "any maneuver abilities from path of war", though it is kind of long winded. If this is only meant for your players, and your players know what you mean, it's probably fine as is.

Naoki00 wrote:
4: How are they getting 3 attacks exactly? I can maybe think of cleave.
That's one way. But I was thinking the two weapon mastery lightning strikes and rending blade. Technically you would have a -3 penalty on all 3 attacks, and the power attack damage on the off-hand would be slightly less, but 3 attacks with a -3 to hit, while all doing full strength and possibly rend damage is pretty ridiculous for a 5th level character.
Naoki00 wrote:
5: I'm a little confused how counterstrike does that. It's giving up the attack you get at lowest BAB...

I actually read it as you can give up any attacks at lower BAB, not the single attack at your lowest BAB. Also later it mentions getting an attack of opportunity for every attack you give up. So it does have the two problems of allowing all the attacks on one creature, and that once a two weapon fighter reaches a certain level, they actually gets worse at this ability, since they go from having the two attacks to just one at the lowest BAB. Also, pretty niche, but it also doesn't really work with a natural attack build. Don't know how much you care about that.

Naoki00 wrote:
6: Is it that bad considering the level it's gained at...

Kind of, because most save or dies are single target, or allow for two saves, or are the highest level spell slot you can cast. Plus spell resistance and immunities. Nothing is immune to hit point damage, and aside from concealment, fighters usually have no problems hitting high AC. A once a round ability would probably be more reasonable. The two handed fighter archetype allows you to do this as a standard action, so locks you into one attack. That's about the closest comparison I know.

Naoki00 wrote:
I have never played with stamina because the normal uses for it never wowed me enough to really catch an eye...

Well, I don't have a lot of experience with the stamina system either, much for this very reason. No one I've played with has wanted to bother with it. However I do feel like in most campaigns the fights are going to be spaced out more than a couple minutes apart, or that there's time for the fighter to rest for half his level in minutes to recover stamina. Doubly so if he can be active while still recovering stamina. Under normal stamina rules it's not a problem, because like you said, most of the abilities are pretty lackluster, like 2 stamina for a +1 to hit or +2 to damage. But most good abilities do cost a lot, like 10 stamina to be able to take 20 on initiative, or 5 stamina to turn a 12 into a possible critical. So, even if you're looking to make the stamina cost less than most abilities, 2 stamina is pretty low for the chance to make an extra attack and the like.

Naoki00 wrote:
10: Well the idea wasn't meant to be implied to be hitting them "in the past"... Would there be a better way to phrase that?

Well, there's thematic and mechanical problems with this. Because what you do shouldn't affect what has already happened in combat. Say for example, a lich casts Power Word Kill on your party sorcerer, killing them, then walks through your threatened area: you attack, crit, and kill the lich (well, sort of). So in this case your sorcerer doesn't come back from the dead because the lich couldn't cast spells while dead, because it's already happened. Same thing here, a creature has already walked that distance when it had the movement to do so shouldn't have a problem just because they've been hit with a de-buff that, if they had it at the start of the turn, wouldn't have allowed them to move that far. Aside from that, there's also the question of why they couldn't just double move to have the movement to keep going without going prone.

Naoki00 wrote:
11: That's a fair assement, it probably is a biiiit much. How about reducing Attacks, CMD, and CMB by something -1 per 6 levels. Thats -1 at 7th (the earliest you can get the ability) and only -3 at level 18.

That's probably more balanced. Still incredibly powerful as a free ability that can affect multiple creatures, but affecting few things at least leaves a niche for other de-buffers.

Naoki00 wrote:
12: Even with the -4 on all attacks beforehand if you want to do it? I admit I'm not all that impressed by the swashbuckler personally...

I don't really understand the dislike for the swashbuckler on the boards here, except maybe the lack of fortitude as a good save. They can easily waltz into a group of enemies and deflect any attack against them, while simultaneously dealing consistent damage off turn. Right now I have a swashbuckler with the one handed weapon trick that allows an attack of opportunity against enemies that miss his AC by 5 or more. Between that and opportune parry/riposte he's likely taking out 3/4 of the enemies, while taking almost no damage, and that's in a party with a bloodrager who's been knocked unconscious in every session but one so far. And he can only make one riposte per turn, has to spend a panache point and an attack of opportunity to parry. Meanwhile, the fighter can make as many parries per turn as there are attacks against them, and can attack any time they exceed the attack roll by 5. Unless they're always fighting CR+3, that's fairly likely to happen more than once a round, especially as the number of attacks a round increases. Meanwhile, the -4 to attack during the round, while a not insignificant penalty, is likely to affect your lowest BAB attacks, which you might not even be taking because of counter strike. Comparing it to Combat Expertise, you'd be getting +4 AC for that -4 to hit, which is a worse trade than having an opponent have to miss both your regular AC plus your attack roll, without having to worry about being hit back in return.

Naoki00 wrote:
13: Mythic tier stuff was not the intention no, but the aim of these to be 2-3 feats worth of power is intentional.

I think having a class ability that's worth 2-3 feats isn't a bad idea. There are lots of them out there, but they usually tend to be key abilities of the class, like rage, or Divine Grace. Having them every 3 levels is a bit more powerful than most other classes. I mean, you have also removed weapon training, which was the fighters key accuracy and damage booster, aside from feats and power attack. But then there are abilities like Eagle Eyed shot, and Brutal Force, which essentially give it all back in one ability, with 6 more to go.


ok we completed a one-shot and I will post some of my thoughts and let you review our verison as well as our house rules so you can get a feel for how we play when I get back in and get some sleep.

I would preface this with some background. I have been playing since 79. The first time I played D&D was BASIC and it was in a Gifted Reading class and our teacher had us play D&D for a variety of reasons in the class but it hooked a good many of us for a life time of fun. I spent thirteen years in the Marine Corps most of that in combat arms (Radio Recon and attached to several Maritime Special Operations teams while with MEU SOCs). Spent another four years with the DIA. Most of that deployed in Africa, Haiti, Far East,Central/South America, Middle East, the Baltics, and a few places you probably have not heard of :) Went to SERE, Basic Recon Course, Combatant Dive school, Jump School, Free Fall school, several cryptography/signal intel courses, sat com course, Pathfinder, Ranger, and Mountain Warfare, Jungle Survial, and IDF Desert Warfare course and a few other courses off an on as time and funding allowed. You also get a lot of cross training as you work with other teams and specialties. The benefit of lots of down time on ship and isolated areas. So my view on this is really probably very skewed compared to the average joe :)

Myself and one another in our group have spent time gaming while on deployments facing real world situations and in our down time using 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 to game when time permitted thanks to PDF's and laptops/tablets. We decided a long time ago to use the Pathfinder system when 3.5 was all but given up on. Personally it is the best system out there as it allows you to adapt the system to your own needs pretty easily with house rules.

We have had some long conversations over the years on how Pathfinder/D&D classes relate to real world in regards to warriors and fighters. In my own estimation Warriors are professional soldiers with limited/basic training and experience. While Fighters are well trained, well experienced with specialized training that exceeds the training that is received by a warrior. In real world terms a basic infantry man, mortarman, machine gunner would be a warrior while a recon, force recon, radio recon, STA, special forces, ranger, seal, Navy SWCC, or Air Force Pararescue, CCT members are fighters, fighter/ranger or fighter/rogue mix (hybrid/new classes included as well).

Our games are not very combat intenstive but those points in games when they are the group is often faced with very dangerous encounters. We are probably a 70/30 or 60/40 role play-problem solving/combat. We place an emphasis on survival skills, diplomacy, and language skills as well as knowledge skills.

I say this all so you can get an idea of how we view and use a fighter and the martial classes.

When I get home I will post some feed back on your fighter. One of the reasons we wanted to give it a spin was the Stamina and a few other additions you have in your version. We often give variants a go in our games to see how they hold up to our games and house rules. Fighters in our games are the gold standard for the martial classes as Rogues are the gold standard for intrigue skills.

We have had many dicussions on things like breaking out Gather Informations from Diplomacy as they are very different skill sets in the real world... That could be a long discussion in itself. We are all on the fence about that but I believe we will probably break it out next major campaign. We also added a few Knowledge skills to better serve those specific areas.

There are some things that need to be fixed in the variant you have, most have already been mentioned. We did a one-shot with 8th level players so it was a mid range game. It was a group of six players; one House Fighter variant, a rogue, a wizard/rogue, a war priest, one ranger, and your variant fighter. We lost the rogue and the war priest by the time the story unfolded. It was a horror based game centered around a farm and a small hamlet being ravaged by an advanced werewolf (loup garuo) and a witch. There were two group combats that involved bandits/hunters and another involving a roaming band of gnolls.

"Examine the Enemy" is a nice little addition and it helped this fighter shine a few times in the game. "Stamina" and "Swift Strike" are nice but might be a little overpowered. "Rudimentary Skills" is fine with the qualifier of them being on the Fighter Skill list. The loss of Weapons training really hurts... We actually start the weapons training at first level (giving the fighter one additional bonus). I have a few other things but I think you need to compare so you see what I am talkin about. I will post tomorrow when I get some sleep.

As soon as I get in tomorrow I will post my thoughts and put our info up as well for you to review. Just thought I would post as we are wrapping up.

SD


Thanks for the background information, and I really do look forward to the results! With the feedback already given and that input, I think I can safely say that with some tweaking the class will be well on it's way to a more balanced variant. I will say that I removed the Weapon training due to being worried about the damage scaling being a bit too high with the extra attacks granted and the power of the Weapon Masteries, so I was attempting to trade the flat damage for better action economy.


Naoki00,

Here is our groups house rules, fighter variant, and NPC variants we use. I figure this will help you understand how we use them. We are a weird bunch as have been gaming together for a while now. The house rules are really a running list of notes we use for our games.

SD 2017 House Rules

SD 2017 Fighter Variant

NPC Variants

The fighter variant we use is really focused on not only be able to dish out high volumes of damage but also enhance his companions in combat. The main additions to the variant fighter we use:

1) addition of perception to skill list.
2) addition of Know: Military on skill list. (See house rules)
3) Weapons Training at 1st level giving one additional +1 for total of +5 on attack/damage/CMB/CMD.
4) Combat Expert starting at 1st and expanding up to 15th level. This is the biggest benefit to this particular fighter variant. It enhances his AOO chances, flanking, enhances aid another with allies.
5) Battle Movment enhnaces fighter's AC via dodge bonus. Fighter understand how to move in a combat environment to mitigate damage. Making their profile smaller, narrow, harder to hit in close quarters.
6) Battle Valor builds off the Bravery concept enhancing his ability to sniff out ambushes and things going on the battlefield that other classes would not percieve while fighting.
7) Armor Mastery we enhanced DR. At higher levels the fighter needs to shake off high amounts of damage.
8) Empower Weapons - Ok this is mostly based on the old Chainmail rules and the HERO/SUPER HERO. Fighters above 15th level are bad a&& dudes... and the world around them (often magical in nature) takes notice.

I am working on giving you some meaningful feedback especially from the player that used the variant you created.

On a personal note:

1) first time we used stamina and we actually liked it. There are some tweaks we talked about making if we added it to our variant...mainly because we think it would make the fighter to powerful as we currently have it.

2) Fighter Weapon Masteries were cool. He used Hail of Arrows Style - Eagle-Eyed Shot, Heart Seeker and Snapping Turtle Style - Martyr's Style. Interesting and it was something we discussed at length at the end of night/morning. I think you could add some really cool styles.

3) Examine the Enemy is really nice feature. Something we are considering adding... Again it is something we need to look at overall to the variant we use and making sure it is not overpowered. But in the game this was key in two events in the game.

4)Rudimentary Skills - not so sure about. Let the fighter be a fighter and a combat expert. We didn't hate it just thought it took away from the concept of the fighter...but remember I especially have a skewed view on this.

5) liked Guarded Mind.. Battle Valor is something we use that is similar.

6) Excellent Conditioning and Swift Strike are nice features..needs to be tweaked but everyone liked the feature...

That's it for now. Hope it helps.

SD


ALLENDM wrote:
Tons of more good stuff

Thank you so much for the insight in addition to everyone else. I'm slowly working on some of the fixes and ideas for possibly swapping or clearing up some of the ability interactions. I really like your guy's Fighter as well ALLENDM, and might incorporate some of its design into this one.

For what I've been doing I do have some questions as well, but first I made the stipulation that you cannot gain more attacks than the 2 swift strikes gives you unless using the Lightning Strikes Weapon Mastery.

Secondly, I've adjusted to the class table to show a weapon mastery gain on the table itself rather than as a separate part of it and in the masteries nerfed field of spears (to the before suggested option) and rending blades to a flat 1d6 per 5 points of BAB with no strength scaling. I think that while this will scale to 4d6 at 20, it should keep it far more balanced for the level you can gain it while not being worthless later as it is still 'free' damage and is now less reliant on Strength in the case of a Dex build.

Now for some questions, I'm hoping people will respond to.

In order to solve the issues with Trivial Stamina use, do you think adding 2 points extra to every cost is enough? I'm unsure where the sweet spot might lay and don't want to make them overcosted.

Also from my previous Fighter rework attempt I do still have the original "Prowess" abilities that were intended to replace the normal bonus feat gains. Not all of these are balanced with obviously since I haven't had the time to fully rework them (thus leaving them out of this build entirely). BUT, they are still something I think has some potential to be of use especially since most of them scale with level. Of course many wouldn't be used (such as the Armor Training one, I've just kept it as a regular ability here and the version I used is a bit overblown). Do you think it might be an option to remove Rudimentary Skill and replace it with a more concise list of options from the Prowess list (after tweaking the ones that could be of use) every 4 levels instead? Originally I had replaced these with the Weapon Masteries to try and limit the potential overwhelming interactions.

Fighter Prowess Ideas from former Rework


Changes to the class itself made thus far:

Increased stamina cost to all abilities, hoping to scale it until it looks good, but for now, I kept it to a moderate increase in cost.

Changed Decisive Blow to: Decisive Blow (Ex): The fighter can bear down on an enemy and unleash a horrendous amount of pain when she truly exerts herself. At 18th level, whenever the fighter makes a full round attack, she may instead make a single Decisive Blow attack at her highest attack bonus. She does not gain any extra attacks through the use of any ability or effect when making a Decisive Blow. When making a Decisive Blow the fighter may spend 6 points of stamina to treat her attack as a critical threat regardless of her actual roll. A Decisive Blow does not automatically fail on a natural 1.

Removed Rudimentary Skills. I don't know if anything should be put in their place since they didn't fulfill any major role beyond trying to give the fighter more out of combat ability.

Added the ability expanded examination: Expanded Examination (Ex): Beginning at 8th level the fighter’s ability to gauge the capabilities of her enemies is enhanced greatly by her experience. When she uses a swift action to assess her opponent she may assess one additional opponent for every 5 points of BAB she possess, and also learns if they are healthy (over 50% hit points), Wounded (50% hit points or less), or Gravely Wounded (25% hit points or less).

Changes to the Weapon Masteries-

Two-Fisted Style: Changed Brute Force to You gain the Power Attack feat, and reduce the penalty for power attacking by 1.

Increased the distance Rampaging Bull needs to move the enemy for extra damage by 5ft.

Reaching Weapons Style: Reworded Polearm Discipline's second line.

Changed Halting Iron to- Requires Polearm Discipline. Your Strength bonus to attack rolls is increased by ½ when you make attacks of opportunity against creatures you attacked during your turn. In addition, any creature that you hit with an attack of opportunity has all of their movement speeds halved until the beginning of your next round; this does not stack with itself. When a creature provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through an area you threaten, you may make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of their turn. An enemy can still take the rest of their action, but cannot move. This counts as the Stand Still feat for the purpose of prerequisites.

Einhander Style: Wreath of Blades changed to- Requires Needle Strike. As an immediate action once per round you may attempt to parry an enemy's incoming attack. To parry an attack, you must make an opposing attack roll against a melee attack that targets you; if you succeed, the attack misses, and if you succeed by at least 5, your opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you as you take advantage of their clumsiness. Unlike other Einhander Style Weapon Masteries, Wreath of Blades can be used even when you have a weapon or a shield in your other hand; however, you cannot have attacked with it this turn. Add any bonus to armor class you would receive from your shield to your attack roll for parrying instead. If you fail to parry your opponent's attack, you instead become flatfooted against the attack you attempted to parry.

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