Is Bleed damage worth it? I do not think it is. I have never seen a rogue Bleeda target to death. Usually, things get overkilled. And if they go to -1 and go unconscious they need rest to get back up anyway. So them bleeding to death seems to be a waste when you can Coup them after the fight. I would say you could do better with your feat. Weapon Focus, Toughness, Combat Reflexes, butterfly sting, all seem like better options and those are basic feats. I am sure a rogue Efficeninato could offer a couple better feats.
Rogues Edge: Heal? No...total waste...Buy a wand of Cure Light wounds for 750gp and Put your 1 rogues edge to a better skill. Perception, Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Acrobatics.
I do like the Curved Blade but I also am a Fan of the Elven Branched Spear. You can Finesse it, 2 hands, AND it has reach. Since crits do not matter to you since the majority of your damage is precision I would look into using some reach. Would make Combat Reflexes and your High dex good for picking up extra attacks. Or you can keep the Curved blade and possibly grab butterfly sting and pass along the critical to your Frontline partner.
What does rogue 6 give you that rogue5/sorcerer 1 doesn't?
Seems like you would still have the sneak attack damage, but it would free up your rogue talents, which could easily make up for the BAB difference.
What I would change:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint: Still needing a Move Action means your damage output with this isn't going to be impressive, in fact if you can get Haste your Full Attack without Sneak may be equal or better to a single Sneak Attack. Given this is 2 Feat investment, I think there is MUCH better areas to apply it.
Whether you use sword or pole-arm, Lunge is useful - most especially because enemies won't expect it until you use it. That equally, if not more, applies to Pole-arms (the extra 5' means regular reach enemies won't be able to 5' to Full Attack you).
I would strongly consider Thug and Scout archetypes, the latter letting you always pull of single Sneak Attack Charge, the former granting more debuff options - combined with Unchained's Debilitating Injury and that is serious debuffing. But I would prioritize Scout, since you were already willing to spend 2 Feats for Feint to get 1 Sneak Attack/ round, and it only gives up Uncanny Dodge. Thug replaces Trapfinding, although you can still take Trap Spotter if you wish (and I believe there is some ways to get back Trapfinding if you so wish... or just take Skill Focus, and use Detect Magic for magic traps).
Resiliency Rogue Talent vs Toughness Feat is an interesting one, the first gives 2x the amount of HPs, but is only 1/day. (or 1 more with Multitalented also)
re: Skill Unlock, I think Heal is legit especially given you are unsure about ongoing party composition, I might add that Swim (swim speed, allowing faster movement and 5' steps) and Sense Motive (gaining potential Init bonus) are also worth considering, and don't hinge on increased DCs for greater effect.
Other potential Feats: Weapon Focus, Offensive Defence, Improved Iron Will...
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CN Half-elf Unchained Rogue 6
25-pts buy
STR 11
DEX 18 (15 base + lvl.4 + 2 racial)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 14FCB +1/6 rogue talent, Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade) alternative racial
Trait: Fast-talker, ResilientFeats/abilities:
1. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Iron Will
2. Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
3. Twist Away
4. Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
5. Rogue's Edge (Heal), Extra Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
6. Rogue Talent (Minor Magic - Mage Hand), Rogue Talent (Major Magic - Vanish)Yes, I know I have 3 feats at level 1 despite being half-elf. DM is giving everyone 2 extra feat at level 1 for reason unknown and i'm rolling with it but we are starting at level 6 and as per the E6 rules we won't be going higher...
Problems:
- Combat Expertise requires INT:13- you're a martial with a single melee attack
- not gaining bonus numeric damage to exploit 18-20 threats
- while a fine weapon made better by unchained rogue, elven curve blade doesn't quality for Piranha Strike
- with a generous 25 build points, you should angle for prime-stat 20 by 4th
~ ~ ~
half-elf, 17,16,12,12,12,07 25pt array
STR:07 (-4)
DEX+20 (13) (race+2,bumped 4th)
CON:12 (2)
INT:12 (2)
WIS:16 (10)
CHA:12 (2)
racial traits: Ancestral Arms(EWP:wakizashi), Blended View*
traits: Dangerously Curious, Berserker of the Society
(*If you're going to be a half-elf, be a freakin' half-drow and receive Darkvision by trading away jack-squat for it in an E6-cap character.)
01 barba1 [urban][controlled rage], Extra Rage, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative
02 rogue1 [unchained:weapon finesse][rake:Bravado’s Blade][Bandit][SA+1d6]
03 rogue2 [evasion][talent:Combat Trick:Piranha Strike], DEX>20, FEAT(g)
04 rogue3 [Rake’s Smile][Finesse Training:wakizashi][SA+2d6]
05 rogue4 [bandit:Ambush][Talent:Trap Spotter], FEAT(g)
06 blood1 [move+10][aberrant:Staggering Strike][Spelleater][rage:+2rnds]
-- You have two general feats to play with.
...if your GM bans bloodrager, fighter[unarmed:dragon style]. If he bans barbarian[urban], do rogu3/fighter(weapon master)3 and pick up Weapon Training for your wakizashis. If he bans unchained, then barb[urban]1/figh[unarmed:dragon style]1/samurai4.
level play-by-play:
0st: put 16 in WIS because it looked like you were worried about will saves and traps (i.e., Perception); otherwise swap with CON for usual reasons
1st: Barb[urban] is the most powerful possible dip preface for unchained rogue; can controlled-rage for DEX+4 for finesse bonuses and tap the Furious weapon enhancement down the road. But before finesse, can normal-rage for the same STR:11 you had before to avoid early penalties.
...
2nd: pick up rogue class skills, finesse, sneak-attack
3rd: power up wakizashies here, and at 5th.
4th: major numeric-bonus damage upgrade enables switching rage to "controlled" (DEX) mode.
5th: Ambush is pretty sweet.
6th: avoid rogue5 or any new BAB0@1st class. A third SA die is not worth a permanent relative Att-1, and there is no save advancement or talent offering.
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Any advice for the equipment? Weapon +1 is 8k our of the 16k I start with. Is the mithral chain shirt really the best there is for lightly armored character?No, because finesse characters can easily have a DEX higher than 22, exceeding the shirt's +6 bonus limit.
Is there a new alternative I haven't seen since I last played about 2 years ago or just something better suited for this rogue?
If you run the [urban] build I suggested, or a close facsimile thereof, skip armor entirely and UMD a wand of Mage Armor.
Or save the money and go with Quilted Cloth armor for DEX+8 max, no check penalty, and DR:3/- versus piercing. 100gp, and preventing damage is awesome since a character with a very high "alerted" touch-AC to begin with is most likely to be hit when ambushed flat-footed/sleeping/showered by kobold archers who roll 20s/etc.
Quickdraw Shield: AC +2, check -2 (but you'd be stowing/re-equipping it as a free-action using Quick Draw).
Additionally, with all the extra feats you're getting, the Spring Attack line won't unduly cramp whatever other theme you have going on. This assumes Dodge and Mobility granting AC+5 as you intercept AoOs moving into flank to get sneak-attacks.
~ ~ ~
01 barba1 [urban][controlled rage], Extra Rage, Dodge, Quick Draw
02 rogue1 [unchained:weapon finesse][rake:Bravado’s Blade][Bandit][SA+1d6]
03 rogue2 [evasion][talent:Combat Trick:Two Weapon Fighting], DEX>20, Mobility
04 rogue3 [Rake’s Smile][Finesse Training:wakizashi][SA+2d6]
05 rogue4 [bandit:Ambush][Talent:Trap Spotter], Spring Attack*
06 ....
(*Spring Attack has BAB+4 requirement.)
Equipment: quilted cloth armor (AC+1,100gp), light wooden quickdraw shield (AC+2,53gp), wand (Longstrider and/or Expeditious Retreat) 750ea.
Tactics: move through threatened area into flank while DEX-raging (AC: 18 base +8 from cloth/shield/dodge/mobility = AC26); take sneak-attack. Next round (if still in flank or 5' from it): quick-stow shield, TWF, quick-sheath off-hand weapon, quick re-equip shield.
Enchant the armor and shield to +1 each for 2x1500gp. Add in necklaces and so forth, and you're pushing AC30 during Mobility moves.
~ ~ ~
"High" level options (cruising at 6th): grab the Advanced Talent E6 feat for rogues, take Skill Mastery, and selected Acrobatics as one of your take-10 skills. Now you can tumble through threatened squares into flank pretty much worry-free.
~ ~ ~
The absolute best "armor" a rogue can buy? Wand of Mirror Image. You can do it in your budget, but it ain't cheap.
You are going with Magic talents...I cannot suggest River Whip enough as a great spell for a rogue.
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Drop STR to 8 and increase INT to 12; you won't need strength at all past rogue3. Might as well enjoy one more skill (and qualify for Combat Expertise later via a headband, if you still want that feat).Indeed i'll be keeping to pure unchained rogue for now. here's the revised build I have for now
CN Half-elf Unchained Rogue 6
25-pts buy
STR 10
DEX 20 (17 base + lvl.4 + 2 racial)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 12
FCB +1/6 rogue talent, Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade) alternative racial
Trait: Caretaker, ResilientFeats/abilities:
1. Skill Focus (stealth),Improved InitiativeHellcat Stealth, Iron Will
2. Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
3. Twist Away
4. Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack??)
5. Rogue's Edge (Heal), Extra Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
6. Rogue Talent (Minor Magic - Mage Hand), Rogue Talent (Major Magic - Vanish)
Is there any particular reason you want or need to be straight-classed given that you're not playing a caster?
(IMO, if you have any combat feats in your build, then you are MARTIAL character, and should multiclass as appropriate to get what you need. One thing rogues need is hitpoints and fortitude saves -- thus take a martial class at 1st to get them both. Vanilla CRB barbarian -- not even the totally-awesome-why-on-earth-would-not-take-this-in-a-finesse-build Urban archetype, mind you -- grants, while raging as a Barb2/rogue4, Fort+4, Will+1, and HP+19 over straight-6 rogue, eliminating much of the impetus for Iron Will and Twist Away.)
Major Magic ... <sucking teeth> -- Two rogue talents spent to cast a 1st-level wizard spell only twice a day is just not that good deal when you can buy 25gp scrolls and UMD them. Even for something as bacon-saving as Vanish. (Note that standard-action spell-like abilities trigger AoOs same as casting.)
half-drow is right out as it would create more problem in the day to day life in his world.
"I am not half-drow! I'm half-Garundi!" <make Bluff check>
"...The Garundi boast dark skin, sharp cheekbones, broad shoulders, and premature bright white hair...."
I'm still on the fence about bleeding attack. It feels alright and fitting considering it's a flat 3 bleed renewed every sneak attack until they either heal, die or negate my ability to sneak them but I wonder if there's anything else either giving similar damage output or just a whole new trick to add to my list of things I can do.
Bleed gives you 3pt? Whoop.
-- TWF or Rapid Shot give you a whole additional attack (either are grossly strong in the low-level game, and you'd be very flexible with both).
Have you considered taking a ki pool and Ninja Trick? There is vanish, mirror image and if you pick Forgotten Trick it opens up a vast amount of options on demand.
I personally like playing rogues as the guy who has a clever solution for anything, be it spending tonnes on useful scrolls to Umd or to be able to apply a +20 acrobatics to cross a gap to secure a line for all on demand.
For defenses I'd like to chime in with Mirror Image. Also Obscuring Mist is a handy thing to have, as a scroll though.
Additionaly here is a little twist on the defenses, which at E6 could work very nicely. The Snake Style feat uses Sense Motive to avoid an attack instead of AC. Sense Motive is easy to get pretty high. This is accomplished easier with a monk dip and/or being a ninja. I imagine with E6 most enemies have 1-2 attacks unlike the 7 gazillion at high levels.
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River Whip
I've played a ninja to high level and some rogues at low/mid, they do struggle to hit things. River Whip solves this in situations where you need to hit reliably.
"You create a coil of flowing fresh water, functioning a whip appropriate for your size, except you make a melee touch attack instead of a regular attack. Anything you strike with the whip takes damage and is doused with 1 pint of water."
Whips have reach and this one hits touch AC, solving a lot of problems for many rogues which are: Dont want to get too close and cant hit things. It deals damage, the damage to water creatures is just extra. Otherwise, just like a whip. Unfortunately it's a 2nd level spell so you cannot take it. Kickass spell to make a scroll specially if you have a wizard friend, when you are facing that armoured tin can you'd need a 17 to hit and you dont want to be the guy in his face.
Throwing a build out here, if a little eclectic. You dont know what party you will have so you need to be flexible, supportive and efficient. It's a mix of yours and the Snake Style suggestion.
Unchained Rogue 5 / Unchained Monk 1
1 R1. F: Combat Expertise F: Improved Feint , F: Iron Will
2 R2. RT: Fast Stealth
3 M1. F: Snake Style, BF: Deflect Arrows*, IUS, Wis to Ac, FoB, Full Bab
4 R3. RT: Extra Rogue Talent (Ki Pool)
5 R4. F: Twist Away, RT: Ninja Trick Vanish (or forgotten trick)
6 R5. RT: Rogue's Edge (Heal)
F Feat, RT Rogue Talent, *substitute for any monk bonus feat
How does it all work:
-5 levels in rogue gives the rogue's edge and still at 3d6 sneak.
-1 level in monk yields Imp Unarmed Strike and a bonus feat, one extra attack (FoB) and a strong Fort save bonus, and ki pool.
-Options of playing with Str/Wis instead of x/Dex for stats shenanigans.
-Easy to pick Snake Style.
- I personally hate Combat Expertise and improved feint is lack luster with other options, could open up options like Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Combat Reflexes, Mobility, Piranha Strike etc
Stats...do this however you want but feel free to dump str or whatever you need
10 str
18 dex (+2 race)
14 con
13 int
16 wis (+1 from level 4)
10 cha
AC: 4 dex + 3 wis + 10 = 17
Snake Style: d20 + 11(3trained+6level+2trait) = 12 min, 31 max, without investment, increases easily with items and buffs
My personal favourite for the build above would be uMonk3 / uRogue3. Take accomplished Sneak attacker if you get your kicks off sneak attack.
Monk:
IUS, FoB, 2 bonus feats, fast movement, Ki Pool (wis), +1 bab total
Rogue:
Sneak Attack 2, 1 Rogue talent, Rogue finesse
Saves: +4 +6 +2, Bab: +5
Full attack: FoB +5/+5, +5/+5/+5 if using ki
Vs full rogue:
Rogues edge, debilitating injury, 2 rogue talents, uncanny dodge, Sneak attack 3
Saves: +1 +4 +1, Bab: +4
Full attack: +4
Depends what you are looking into but I think this would be a better rounded character with more flexibility (Forgotten Trick might be expensive but it can really save your arse. Im a fan, but there's other stuff out there for ki of course).
Good luck and let us know what you go for.
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I know multiclass might not be what you're into for this character, but Snakebite Striker Brawler 3 is pretty fantastic with a Rogue. Brawler grants you Brawler's Flurry, which has specifically been ruled to work as TWF for prerequisite purposes, meaning that you can use Two Weapon Feint with a single weapon flurry while wearing a shield, and you can take Improved TWF as a normal feat to use with Brawler's Flurry. Snakebite Striker grants Sneak Attack damage and the ability to feint as part of a move action. Brawler also grants a bonus feat at 2 and removes INT requirements for feats. Snakebite Rogue is a feinting machine.
The Sage Counselor Monk (Unchained) 3 or 4 is also a really interesting multiclass option for Rogue, since you get unchained flurry, awesome bonus feats, WIS AC, and a Ki Pool. An Unchained Rogue with a Ki Pool can grab Ninja Tricks that use Ki, like Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone, plus at 4 you can feint as a swift action before dropping a flurry. If I make a Rogue anytime soon it'll probably be a high STR/WIS Sage Monk Rogue two-handing a 9-ring sword and using ki 'magic'.
Oh, and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat grants bonus Sneak damage if you lose some by multiclassing.
The Sage Counselor Monk (Unchained) 3 or 4 is also a really interesting multiclass option for Rogue, since you get unchained flurry, awesome bonus feats, WIS AC, and a Ki Pool. An Unchained Rogue with a Ki Pool can grab Ninja Tricks that use Ki, like Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone, plus at 4 you can feint as a swift action before dropping a flurry. If I make a Rogue anytime soon it'll probably be a high STR/WIS Sage Monk Rogue two-handing a 9-ring sword and using ki 'magic'.
Oh, and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat grants bonus Sneak damage if you lose some by multiclassing.
BadBird returned to the forum!
In this build, the dex is discarded? And then the rogue is pumped? Will you use style feats?|
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barbarian(urban or not) doesn't bring anything rogue to the table.
Controlled-rage for DEX+4? ...take a closer look. It's literally the best possible thing in the game for a finesse rogue.
Easy-button: barb[urban]2/rogu4; rage-power[reckless abandon]
...when it's fightin' time, versus straight BAB:4 rogue6, you are:
* AC+1
* BAB+1
* CMD+2
* att+4 (finesse)
* dmg+2 (finesse)
Summation: better AC, hit way more often, and a flat +2 to damage most of the time (and which multiplies on crits) is better than a third 1d6 sneak in situationals. Basically you lessen your reliance on sneaks and shift it to numeric bonuses, becoming much more flexible. You can TWF or Rapid Shot for twice the attacks and still be att+2 vs the rogue6.
You can also use INT and CHA skills (such as UMD, Bluff, etc) while in a Controlled-rage.
Do it.
Thank me later.
On consideration, with the E6 thing, I'd maybe go with Unchained Rogue 4 + Arcane Sorcerer 2, so you can throw many/day Dazzling Blade. If you take the Magical Lineage trait and Still Spell, you can cast Dazzling Blade while wielding two weapons, so you can blind a target with a swift/free action and then double Sneak Attack it. High CHA and spell focus feats will make Dazzling Blade quite effective.