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Need advice for a Unchained Rogue in E6.


Advice


Hello all

I'm about to join a pathfinder E6 game and was looking for some advice on rounding up an Unchained Rogue. Here is what I have so far.

CN Half-elf Unchained Rogue 6

25-pts buy
STR 11
DEX 18 (15 base + lvl.4 + 2 racial)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 14

FCB +1/6 rogue talent, Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade) alternative racial
Trait: Fast-talker, Resilient

Feats/abilities:
1. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Iron Will
2. Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
3. Twist Away
4. Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
5. Rogue's Edge (Heal), Extra Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
6. Rogue Talent (Minor Magic - Mage Hand), Rogue Talent (Major Magic - Vanish)

Yes, I know I have 3 feats at level 1 despite being half-elf. DM is giving everyone 2 extra feat at level 1 for reason unknown and i'm rolling with it but we are starting at level 6 and as per the E6 rules we won't be going higher though we will be able to purchase new ability eventually.

I have no info on the rest of the party since each session are short adventure so player will probably come and go depending on their schedule. I have no guarantee of having a balanced group on any session so I build the character more rounded. Since I won't be getting much iterative attack I went with the curved blade with improved feint/vanish if flanking is unavailable. trap spotter because I know the DM personnaly and he likes his traps. rogue's edge heal is for passive healing when needed. Resilient, twist away and iron will is to help with survivability.

Looks like a solid build to me but I haven't played in a while and i'm more of the caster type usually and most of my search on the unchained rogue found advice/builds going well into lvl 8-10+ which I won't really reach so any advice on attaining that lvl 6 power spike and equipment tips is appreciated.


Is Bleed damage worth it? I do not think it is. I have never seen a rogue Bleeda target to death. Usually, things get overkilled. And if they go to -1 and go unconscious they need rest to get back up anyway. So them bleeding to death seems to be a waste when you can Coup them after the fight. I would say you could do better with your feat. Weapon Focus, Toughness, Combat Reflexes, butterfly sting, all seem like better options and those are basic feats. I am sure a rogue Efficeninato could offer a couple better feats.

Rogues Edge: Heal? No...total waste...Buy a wand of Cure Light wounds for 750gp and Put your 1 rogues edge to a better skill. Perception, Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Acrobatics.

I do like the Curved Blade but I also am a Fan of the Elven Branched Spear. You can Finesse it, 2 hands, AND it has reach. Since crits do not matter to you since the majority of your damage is precision I would look into using some reach. Would make Combat Reflexes and your High dex good for picking up extra attacks. Or you can keep the Curved blade and possibly grab butterfly sting and pass along the critical to your Frontline partner.


Thanks for the feedback

Getting Butterly Sting instead of the bleed talent seems like a good idea but the bleed does bypass any DR too. Would giving up the consistent 3 damage per round(and the potential for having the enemy waste an action healing himself) for sharing a crit worth it?

I like the Heal choice for Rogue's edge. It's not only HP but also up to 4 ability damage at the same time. I'm not sure how much of an impact intimidate/acrobatics would have in combat given that the DC is increased to get the effect and I won't be able to pump as much point into the skill as a regular game since we start and stay at level 6. Diplomacy/gather information time was never an issue and neither was perception with proper preparation.

Is there any items/abilities that could really boost intimidate or acrobatics to make those a good choice for rogue's edge?


What does rogue 6 give you that rogue5/sorcerer 1 doesn't?

Seems like you would still have the sneak attack damage, but it would free up your rogue talents, which could easily make up for the BAB difference.


Didn't want to use any casting class this time around since that's what I usually play. sure it's a bit less optimal but DM is expecting new player from time to time on this type of collection of short adventure. I just want to make sure I can contribute to the party in some way whatever the party is made off. So UMD will have to do for the odd spellcasting side of thing here and there when needed.


What I would change:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint: Still needing a Move Action means your damage output with this isn't going to be impressive, in fact if you can get Haste your Full Attack without Sneak may be equal or better to a single Sneak Attack. Given this is 2 Feat investment, I think there is MUCH better areas to apply it.

Whether you use sword or pole-arm, Lunge is useful - most especially because enemies won't expect it until you use it. That equally, if not more, applies to Pole-arms (the extra 5' means regular reach enemies won't be able to 5' to Full Attack you).

I would strongly consider Thug and Scout archetypes, the latter letting you always pull of single Sneak Attack Charge, the former granting more debuff options - combined with Unchained's Debilitating Injury and that is serious debuffing. But I would prioritize Scout, since you were already willing to spend 2 Feats for Feint to get 1 Sneak Attack/ round, and it only gives up Uncanny Dodge. Thug replaces Trapfinding, although you can still take Trap Spotter if you wish (and I believe there is some ways to get back Trapfinding if you so wish... or just take Skill Focus, and use Detect Magic for magic traps).

Resiliency Rogue Talent vs Toughness Feat is an interesting one, the first gives 2x the amount of HPs, but is only 1/day. (or 1 more with Multitalented also)

re: Skill Unlock, I think Heal is legit especially given you are unsure about ongoing party composition, I might add that Swim (swim speed, allowing faster movement and 5' steps) and Sense Motive (gaining potential Init bonus) are also worth considering, and don't hinge on increased DCs for greater effect.

Other potential Feats: Weapon Focus, Offensive Defence, Improved Iron Will...


Here's a build I've used and enjoyed playing -

1) 1 Spire Defender (Magus)
. Class abilities: Arcane Pool, Spells, Spell Combat,
Feat: Combat Expertise, Feat: Dodge. Feat: Butterfly's Sting
2) 1 Unchained Rogue
Class Abilities: Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding
3) 2 Unchained Rogue - Class Abilities: Evasion
Feat: Combat Casting. Rogue talent - Weapon Focus: Rapier
4) 3 Unchained Rogue (+1 Stat bump to DEX)
Class Abilities: Finesse Training: Rapier, Danger Sense +1, Sneak Attack +2d6
5) 4 Unchained Rogue - Class Abilities: Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge
Feat: Skill Focus Stealth. Talent - Fast Stealth
6) 2 Spire Defender (Magus)
Class Ability Spell Strike

While you're BAB suffers a bit the Magus Arcane pool cancels that out but helping with 'enchanting' your weapon.

You have limited spell use but using the Arcane Mark cantrip 'cheese' you get to make 2 attacks with spell combat a round. If you get Pearl of Power access this helps a lot with spells.

Hellcat stealth lets you hide just about any time while Fast Stealth allows you to keep up with party.

This is not a 'optimal' damage build but it is a fun build to play with.

Shadow Lodge

Rumblebelly25 wrote:

CN Half-elf Unchained Rogue 6

25-pts buy
STR 11
DEX 18 (15 base + lvl.4 + 2 racial)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 14

FCB +1/6 rogue talent, Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade) alternative racial
Trait: Fast-talker, Resilient

Feats/abilities:
1. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Iron Will
2. Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
3. Twist Away
4. Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
5. Rogue's Edge (Heal), Extra Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
6. Rogue Talent (Minor Magic - Mage Hand), Rogue Talent (Major Magic - Vanish)

Yes, I know I have 3 feats at level 1 despite being half-elf. DM is giving everyone 2 extra feat at level 1 for reason unknown and i'm rolling with it but we are starting at level 6 and as per the E6 rules we won't be going higher...

Problems:

- Combat Expertise requires INT:13
- you're a martial with a single melee attack
- not gaining bonus numeric damage to exploit 18-20 threats
- while a fine weapon made better by unchained rogue, elven curve blade doesn't quality for Piranha Strike
- with a generous 25 build points, you should angle for prime-stat 20 by 4th

~ ~ ~

half-elf, 17,16,12,12,12,07 25pt array
STR:07 (-4)
DEX+20 (13) (race+2,bumped 4th)
CON:12 (2)
INT:12 (2)
WIS:16 (10)
CHA:12 (2)

racial traits: Ancestral Arms(EWP:wakizashi), Blended View*
traits: Dangerously Curious, Berserker of the Society

(*If you're going to be a half-elf, be a freakin' half-drow and receive Darkvision by trading away jack-squat for it in an E6-cap character.)

01 barba1 [urban][controlled rage], Extra Rage, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative
02 rogue1 [unchained:weapon finesse][rake:Bravado’s Blade][Bandit][SA+1d6]
03 rogue2 [evasion][talent:Combat Trick:Piranha Strike], DEX>20, FEAT(g)
04 rogue3 [Rake’s Smile][Finesse Training:wakizashi][SA+2d6]
05 rogue4 [bandit:Ambush][Talent:Trap Spotter], FEAT(g)
06 blood1 [move+10][aberrant:Staggering Strike][Spelleater][rage:+2rnds]

-- You have two general feats to play with.

...if your GM bans bloodrager, fighter[unarmed:dragon style]. If he bans barbarian[urban], do rogu3/fighter(weapon master)3 and pick up Weapon Training for your wakizashis. If he bans unchained, then barb[urban]1/figh[unarmed:dragon style]1/samurai4.

level play-by-play:

0st: put 16 in WIS because it looked like you were worried about will saves and traps (i.e., Perception); otherwise swap with CON for usual reasons
1st: Barb[urban] is the most powerful possible dip preface for unchained rogue; can controlled-rage for DEX+4 for finesse bonuses and tap the Furious weapon enhancement down the road. But before finesse, can normal-rage for the same STR:11 you had before to avoid early penalties.
...
2nd: pick up rogue class skills, finesse, sneak-attack
3rd: power up wakizashies here, and at 5th.
4th: major numeric-bonus damage upgrade enables switching rage to "controlled" (DEX) mode.
5th: Ambush is pretty sweet.
6th: avoid rogue5 or any new BAB0@1st class. A third SA die is not worth a permanent relative Att-1, and there is no save advancement or talent offering.


@Quandary: Thanks for pointing out the Scout archetype. I totally skipped it before. I believe we can even buy some of our class feature later down the road so I might even get to use the skirmisher ability eventually. Lunge though require BAB +6 which I can't get unless I don't play rogue or invest heavily into getting the +BAB feats made for E6. Offensive defence looks sexy for later too.

@Matt2VK: Would hellcat stealth be worth the investment without going Magus? it is a -10 penalty to use but maybe some magic items can help offset the penalty. E6 greatly limit the amount of skill points I can get on any particular skill.

@Sir Tugsalot: Good catch on the Combat expertise INT requirement. I can just switch 1 points from STR to INT with no additional cost. I'll check with the DM about Blended View and the Wakizashi. I'm not sure how Drow are viewed/accepted in the world and piranha strike looks delicious. Two-Weapon fighting is out though. It just feel bland to me at this point. I don't remember seeing a rogue without it in all the games i`ve played.

Thanks for all the suggestion so far. Anyone have any idea which magic items to purchase? I do have the standard 16k GP wealth for a 6th level character which i`m pretty sure the weapon will eat about half just so it's considered magic.


Rumblebelly25 wrote:


@Matt2VK: Would hellcat stealth be worth the investment without going Magus? it is a -10 penalty to use but maybe some magic items can help offset the penalty. E6 greatly limit the amount of skill points I can get on any particular skill.

Let's run some numbers for you on your Stealth check.

6 skill ranks
3 from Skill focus
5 (minimum) from DEX
_________________________
Gives you a +14 Stealth check at level 6. With the -10 from hiding in Plan sight you're now at +4. As is, you should be running around 55% chance to successful 'hide' with Hellcat Stealth.
With items, can push the chance to stealth successfully up quite a bit.

There's a number of magic items that help stealth. Here's a couple off the top of my head -

Elixir of Hiding +10 Competence Bonus to Stealth for 1 hour 250 gp
Armor Enchantment: Shadow +5 Competence Bonus to Stealth 3,750 gp
Improved Shadow: +10 Competence Bonus 15,000 gp
Greater Shadow: +15 Competence Bonus 33,750 gp
the Shadow enchantment to armor is a flat cost increase.

There's a couple other items but I can't remember them or have the info easily accessible to me.

Thought there was some Rogue tricks and elf racial traits you could pick to also help with stealth but those might be 3rd party as I can't find them at this time.

***added to***
Scent, the way I play it, will almost always show what square the person is in if adjacent too. Treat a successful stealth check as if the person making it was invisible. "I know he's there, I just can't see him".


I didn't know about the elixir of hiding. I`ll add that to my shopping list as well as the shadow enchant. That would put me at +17 stealth (6 rank, 3 class skill, 3 skill focus, 5 dex) before any enchant or hellcat reduction. sounds like could be easily worth it with proper investment.

Not so sure what I would give up for those 2 feats. I could drop Combat expertise and imp. Feint I guess and rely more on the team for flank/summoned buddy sneak attack.


If you make a successful stealth check, you don't really need to feint, as the target can't see you when you attack.

By RAW, you can make a stealth check with a 5' step. Since this is a home game, check with your GM on this first. Explain what your plan of action is and how you'll do it with the numbers, with possible modifiers.
Nothing worse then a GM deciding that something is way over powered after the fact and something needs to be done to 'tweak' it into balance.


Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to ask him about it. This does seem like a better alternative to improved feint while also giving me more option for when we're out of combat.

Any advice for the equipment? Weapon +1 is 8k our of the 16k I start with. Is the mithral chain shirt really the best there is for lightly armored character? Is there a new alternative I haven't seen since I last played about 2 years ago or just something better suited for this rogue?


Be sure and grab a Robe of Needles. It provides you a cheap 10/20/30 range option for a rogue.

Mithral armor is pretty good, just figure out your DEX modifier (and any possible increases to this) and make sure it doesn't go over the max dex for the armor.
I usually go with darkleaf cloth leather armor for this reason but thos are for higher level games with options to push DEX modifiers into the 7+ range.

Shadow Lodge

Rumblebelly25 wrote:
Any advice for the equipment? Weapon +1 is 8k our of the 16k I start with. Is the mithral chain shirt really the best there is for lightly armored character?
No, because finesse characters can easily have a DEX higher than 22, exceeding the shirt's +6 bonus limit.
Quote:
Is there a new alternative I haven't seen since I last played about 2 years ago or just something better suited for this rogue?

If you run the [urban] build I suggested, or a close facsimile thereof, skip armor entirely and UMD a wand of Mage Armor.

Or save the money and go with Quilted Cloth armor for DEX+8 max, no check penalty, and DR:3/- versus piercing. 100gp, and preventing damage is awesome since a character with a very high "alerted" touch-AC to begin with is most likely to be hit when ambushed flat-footed/sleeping/showered by kobold archers who roll 20s/etc.

Quickdraw Shield: AC +2, check -2 (but you'd be stowing/re-equipping it as a free-action using Quick Draw).

Additionally, with all the extra feats you're getting, the Spring Attack line won't unduly cramp whatever other theme you have going on. This assumes Dodge and Mobility granting AC+5 as you intercept AoOs moving into flank to get sneak-attacks.

~ ~ ~

01 barba1 [urban][controlled rage], Extra Rage, Dodge, Quick Draw
02 rogue1 [unchained:weapon finesse][rake:Bravado’s Blade][Bandit][SA+1d6]
03 rogue2 [evasion][talent:Combat Trick:Two Weapon Fighting], DEX>20, Mobility
04 rogue3 [Rake’s Smile][Finesse Training:wakizashi][SA+2d6]
05 rogue4 [bandit:Ambush][Talent:Trap Spotter], Spring Attack*
06 ....
(*Spring Attack has BAB+4 requirement.)

Equipment: quilted cloth armor (AC+1,100gp), light wooden quickdraw shield (AC+2,53gp), wand (Longstrider and/or Expeditious Retreat) 750ea.

Tactics: move through threatened area into flank while DEX-raging (AC: 18 base +8 from cloth/shield/dodge/mobility = AC26); take sneak-attack. Next round (if still in flank or 5' from it): quick-stow shield, TWF, quick-sheath off-hand weapon, quick re-equip shield.

Enchant the armor and shield to +1 each for 2x1500gp. Add in necklaces and so forth, and you're pushing AC30 during Mobility moves.

~ ~ ~

"High" level options (cruising at 6th): grab the Advanced Talent E6 feat for rogues, take Skill Mastery, and selected Acrobatics as one of your take-10 skills. Now you can tumble through threatened squares into flank pretty much worry-free.

~ ~ ~

The absolute best "armor" a rogue can buy? Wand of Mirror Image. You can do it in your budget, but it ain't cheap.


You are going with Magic talents...I cannot suggest River Whip enough as a great spell for a rogue.


Both the darkleaf Leather and quilted cloth seems to fit the character more than UMD mage armor while also benefiting from getting shadow enchant on it.

I haven't checked for advanced talent and feat to acquire later down the line. I`ll wait and see where the game takes me and if there's some regular player at the table. All your suggestion are noted thought.

I must be missing something on River Whip though. apart from being a touch attack and some small irrelevant bonus vs fire elemental, what makes it amazing for a rogue?


I'd skip River Whip unless I'm reading it wrong. Going against Touch AC is amazing but it does no damage, unless it's a fire creature. Need to do damage to deal SA damage.

Mithral Armor might work with E6 rules, might not. Mithral armor starts hurting DEX based characters in the higher level games as its easier to max up their DEX.

Darkleaf is usually 1 to 2 points of AC behind Mithral, slightly cheaper, and allows a higher DEX modifier.

Think Rumblebelly25 has decided to going pure Un-Rogue for this.

Lots of suggestions tossed up in this thread, so maybe a new build could be tossed up?


Indeed i'll be keeping to pure unchained rogue for now. here's the revised build I have for now

CN Half-elf Unchained Rogue 6

25-pts buy
STR 10
DEX 20 (17 base + lvl.4 + 2 racial)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 12

FCB +1/6 rogue talent, Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade) alternative racial
Trait: Caretaker, Resilient

Feats/abilities:
1. Skill Focus (stealth), Improved Initiative Hellcat Stealth, Iron Will
2. Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
3. Twist Away
4. Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack??)
5. Rogue's Edge (Heal), Extra Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
6. Rogue Talent (Minor Magic - Mage Hand), Rogue Talent (Major Magic - Vanish)

It's mostly the same but improved initiative serve as filler for retraining to hellcat stealth which the DM approved. half-drow is right out as it would create more problem in the day to day life in his world. Adjusted the stats a bit too since I no longer need that much INT.

I'm still on the fence about bleeding attack. It feels alright and fitting considering it's a flat 3 bleed renewed every sneak attack until they either heal, die or negate my ability to sneak them but I wonder if there's anything else either giving similar damage output or just a whole new trick to add to my list of things I can do.


Would drop Bleeding Attack and go with Combat Trick: Weapon Focus.


That would give me more accuracy only which isn't bad considering I only have the one attack per round until haste gets into play.

Shadow Lodge

Rumblebelly25 wrote:

Indeed i'll be keeping to pure unchained rogue for now. here's the revised build I have for now

CN Half-elf Unchained Rogue 6

25-pts buy
STR 10
DEX 20 (17 base + lvl.4 + 2 racial)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 12

Drop STR to 8 and increase INT to 12; you won't need strength at all past rogue3. Might as well enjoy one more skill (and qualify for Combat Expertise later via a headband, if you still want that feat).
Quote:

FCB +1/6 rogue talent, Ancestral Arms (Elven Curved Blade) alternative racial

Trait: Caretaker, Resilient

Feats/abilities:
1. Skill Focus (stealth), Improved Initiative Hellcat Stealth, Iron Will
2. Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
3. Twist Away
4. Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack??)
5. Rogue's Edge (Heal), Extra Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
6. Rogue Talent (Minor Magic - Mage Hand), Rogue Talent (Major Magic - Vanish)

Is there any particular reason you want or need to be straight-classed given that you're not playing a caster?

(IMO, if you have any combat feats in your build, then you are MARTIAL character, and should multiclass as appropriate to get what you need. One thing rogues need is hitpoints and fortitude saves -- thus take a martial class at 1st to get them both. Vanilla CRB barbarian -- not even the totally-awesome-why-on-earth-would-not-take-this-in-a-finesse-build Urban archetype, mind you -- grants, while raging as a Barb2/rogue4, Fort+4, Will+1, and HP+19 over straight-6 rogue, eliminating much of the impetus for Iron Will and Twist Away.)

Major Magic ... <sucking teeth> -- Two rogue talents spent to cast a 1st-level wizard spell only twice a day is just not that good deal when you can buy 25gp scrolls and UMD them. Even for something as bacon-saving as Vanish. (Note that standard-action spell-like abilities trigger AoOs same as casting.)

Quote:
half-drow is right out as it would create more problem in the day to day life in his world.

"I am not half-drow! I'm half-Garundi!" <make Bluff check>

"...The Garundi boast dark skin, sharp cheekbones, broad shoulders, and premature bright white hair...."

Quote:
I'm still on the fence about bleeding attack. It feels alright and fitting considering it's a flat 3 bleed renewed every sneak attack until they either heal, die or negate my ability to sneak them but I wonder if there's anything else either giving similar damage output or just a whole new trick to add to my list of things I can do.

Bleed gives you 3pt? Whoop.

-- TWF or Rapid Shot give you a whole additional attack (either are grossly strong in the low-level game, and you'd be very flexible with both).


Multiclassing is fine but only Magus, sorcerer and barbarian have been suggested. 2 are caster which are out since it's not what I'm looking for while barbarian(urban or not) doesn't bring anything rogue to the table.

Your build looks really good in combat but that's the extent of it. It's all number to achieve combat supremacy with nothing left around it. You're giving up trapfinding, 1 sneak attack dice, 2 rogue talent, rogue's edge and 8 skill points and relegate everything utility oriented to UMD.

It's not the kind of character needed since those are short adventure with characters going in and out as player rotate. I don't need to squeeze every last bit of combat efficiency as possible.

I did forgot to add the scout archetype to my revised build. I'll take weapon focus instead of bleeding attack. If I see that i'm not missing often and could get by without the increased accuracy I can always retrain it.

Equipment so far:
elven curved blade +1, darkleaf studded leather +1, MW thieve's tool, healer's kit, wand of CLW.

That leaves me with about 5245gp. The robe of needles was suggested which is 1000gp. I saw the wayfinder + clear spindle combo somewhere but it is quite expensive on my budget at 4500gp. Would a cracked stone do the same and cut the price down to 1500gp? Also the ever trusty handy haversack is nice but I have so few things right now is it worth it to buy right away?


Robe of Needles makes a Range Touch Attack. While damage isn't much (Just 1 + 1 Bleed) it allows you to get your SA attacks in. Great for surprise rounds or High AC villians with a successful stealth check. All that and they're cheap.

Should get a Cloak of Resistance to help out your saves. Rogues have lousy Fort and Will saves, which need shoring up.

Don't forget the standard splash weapons. At least 1 Alchemist Fire & 1 Acid.

Handy Hoversack - if you have the strength to carry all your gear and a little more, skip it for now. It's great for pulling stuff out in combat and weight reduction but is a luxury item in my opinion.

Skip the Healers Kit. They are more for Theme and with spells and magic items almost useless.

Wayfinders can be nice as they also provide the Light Spell but I'd probably put it on future shopping with a Iuon Stone.


Cant skip the healers kit since its needed to not get the -4 penalty when treating deadly wounds.

Im pretty sure i can skip the haversack so i can put it on the wishlist.

Cloack of resistance and the robe of needles are nice and cheap. Ill add them to he shopping cart.

Ill check with he DM if a cracked ioun stone works with the Wayfinder. Its within my budget and would give protection from evil.


Have you considered taking a ki pool and Ninja Trick? There is vanish, mirror image and if you pick Forgotten Trick it opens up a vast amount of options on demand.

I personally like playing rogues as the guy who has a clever solution for anything, be it spending tonnes on useful scrolls to Umd or to be able to apply a +20 acrobatics to cross a gap to secure a line for all on demand.

For defenses I'd like to chime in with Mirror Image. Also Obscuring Mist is a handy thing to have, as a scroll though.
Additionaly here is a little twist on the defenses, which at E6 could work very nicely. The Snake Style feat uses Sense Motive to avoid an attack instead of AC. Sense Motive is easy to get pretty high. This is accomplished easier with a monk dip and/or being a ninja. I imagine with E6 most enemies have 1-2 attacks unlike the 7 gazillion at high levels.

-----
River Whip

I've played a ninja to high level and some rogues at low/mid, they do struggle to hit things. River Whip solves this in situations where you need to hit reliably.

"You create a coil of flowing fresh water, functioning a whip appropriate for your size, except you make a melee touch attack instead of a regular attack. Anything you strike with the whip takes damage and is doused with 1 pint of water."

Whips have reach and this one hits touch AC, solving a lot of problems for many rogues which are: Dont want to get too close and cant hit things. It deals damage, the damage to water creatures is just extra. Otherwise, just like a whip. Unfortunately it's a 2nd level spell so you cannot take it. Kickass spell to make a scroll specially if you have a wizard friend, when you are facing that armoured tin can you'd need a 17 to hit and you dont want to be the guy in his face.


I already have vanish 3 times per day with major magic. Between that and hellcat stealth i should be good for both combat and out of combat situation.

I checked a bit for the ki pool but without ninja or the monk dip its quite expensive to get any ability and have enough use out of them.

I will definitely grab scrolls to UMD here and there. Casting is very powerful but i dont want to make it the focus of the character since i always play caster usually.

Ill look up the snake style later once i get home. If its not too expensive to get it might be fun to have.

Ill keep river whip in mind. I have no guarantee of getting a wizard buddy but if i can more power to me.


Throwing a build out here, if a little eclectic. You dont know what party you will have so you need to be flexible, supportive and efficient. It's a mix of yours and the Snake Style suggestion.

Unchained Rogue 5 / Unchained Monk 1

1 R1. F: Combat Expertise F: Improved Feint , F: Iron Will
2 R2. RT: Fast Stealth
3 M1. F: Snake Style, BF: Deflect Arrows*, IUS, Wis to Ac, FoB, Full Bab
4 R3. RT: Extra Rogue Talent (Ki Pool)
5 R4. F: Twist Away, RT: Ninja Trick Vanish (or forgotten trick)
6 R5. RT: Rogue's Edge (Heal)

F Feat, RT Rogue Talent, *substitute for any monk bonus feat

How does it all work:
-5 levels in rogue gives the rogue's edge and still at 3d6 sneak.
-1 level in monk yields Imp Unarmed Strike and a bonus feat, one extra attack (FoB) and a strong Fort save bonus, and ki pool.
-Options of playing with Str/Wis instead of x/Dex for stats shenanigans.
-Easy to pick Snake Style.
- I personally hate Combat Expertise and improved feint is lack luster with other options, could open up options like Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Combat Reflexes, Mobility, Piranha Strike etc

Stats...do this however you want but feel free to dump str or whatever you need
10 str
18 dex (+2 race)
14 con
13 int
16 wis (+1 from level 4)
10 cha

AC: 4 dex + 3 wis + 10 = 17
Snake Style: d20 + 11(3trained+6level+2trait) = 12 min, 31 max, without investment, increases easily with items and buffs


My personal favourite for the build above would be uMonk3 / uRogue3. Take accomplished Sneak attacker if you get your kicks off sneak attack.

Monk:
IUS, FoB, 2 bonus feats, fast movement, Ki Pool (wis), +1 bab total
Rogue:
Sneak Attack 2, 1 Rogue talent, Rogue finesse
Saves: +4 +6 +2, Bab: +5
Full attack: FoB +5/+5, +5/+5/+5 if using ki

Vs full rogue:
Rogues edge, debilitating injury, 2 rogue talents, uncanny dodge, Sneak attack 3
Saves: +1 +4 +1, Bab: +4
Full attack: +4

Depends what you are looking into but I think this would be a better rounded character with more flexibility (Forgotten Trick might be expensive but it can really save your arse. Im a fan, but there's other stuff out there for ki of course).

Good luck and let us know what you go for.


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I know multiclass might not be what you're into for this character, but Snakebite Striker Brawler 3 is pretty fantastic with a Rogue. Brawler grants you Brawler's Flurry, which has specifically been ruled to work as TWF for prerequisite purposes, meaning that you can use Two Weapon Feint with a single weapon flurry while wearing a shield, and you can take Improved TWF as a normal feat to use with Brawler's Flurry. Snakebite Striker grants Sneak Attack damage and the ability to feint as part of a move action. Brawler also grants a bonus feat at 2 and removes INT requirements for feats. Snakebite Rogue is a feinting machine.

The Sage Counselor Monk (Unchained) 3 or 4 is also a really interesting multiclass option for Rogue, since you get unchained flurry, awesome bonus feats, WIS AC, and a Ki Pool. An Unchained Rogue with a Ki Pool can grab Ninja Tricks that use Ki, like Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone, plus at 4 you can feint as a swift action before dropping a flurry. If I make a Rogue anytime soon it'll probably be a high STR/WIS Sage Monk Rogue two-handing a 9-ring sword and using ki 'magic'.

Oh, and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat grants bonus Sneak damage if you lose some by multiclassing.


BadBird wrote:


The Sage Counselor Monk (Unchained) 3 or 4 is also a really interesting multiclass option for Rogue, since you get unchained flurry, awesome bonus feats, WIS AC, and a Ki Pool. An Unchained Rogue with a Ki Pool can grab Ninja Tricks that use Ki, like Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone, plus at 4 you can feint as a swift action before dropping a flurry. If I make a Rogue anytime soon it'll probably be a high STR/WIS Sage Monk Rogue two-handing a 9-ring sword and using ki 'magic'.

Oh, and the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat grants bonus Sneak damage if you lose some by multiclassing.

BadBird returned to the forum!

In this build, the dex is discarded? And then the rogue is pumped? Will you use style feats?

Shadow Lodge

Rumblebelly25 wrote:
barbarian(urban or not) doesn't bring anything rogue to the table.

Controlled-rage for DEX+4? ...take a closer look. It's literally the best possible thing in the game for a finesse rogue.

Easy-button: barb[urban]2/rogu4; rage-power[reckless abandon]

...when it's fightin' time, versus straight BAB:4 rogue6, you are:
* AC+1
* BAB+1
* CMD+2
* att+4 (finesse)
* dmg+2 (finesse)

Summation: better AC, hit way more often, and a flat +2 to damage most of the time (and which multiplies on crits) is better than a third 1d6 sneak in situationals. Basically you lessen your reliance on sneaks and shift it to numeric bonuses, becoming much more flexible. You can TWF or Rapid Shot for twice the attacks and still be att+2 vs the rogue6.

You can also use INT and CHA skills (such as UMD, Bluff, etc) while in a Controlled-rage.

Channel your inner Wick.

Do it.

Thank me later.


For minor magic, I'd take acid splash. Ranged touch, 1d3 acid damage. It's a weak cantrip, but on the flat-footed you add your sneak attack damage, it's all acid, plus your debilitation. During the first round of combat, you can aim it at anyone you beat in initiative while you get in position.


On consideration, with the E6 thing, I'd maybe go with Unchained Rogue 4 + Arcane Sorcerer 2, so you can throw many/day Dazzling Blade. If you take the Magical Lineage trait and Still Spell, you can cast Dazzling Blade while wielding two weapons, so you can blind a target with a swift/free action and then double Sneak Attack it. High CHA and spell focus feats will make Dazzling Blade quite effective.

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