Mechanic class in Combat


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Grand Lodge

Hey all - Was interested in other people's takes on the Mechanic class as a combatant, since I really like the class overall.

Having a hard time finding any way that an Exocortex build can keep up with a Drone build in combat because of the Weapon Specialization feat. Since it adds such a large amount of flat damage on every attack, it seems like having an extra Drone attack is almost always better.

Example Math (assuming all Mechanics and Drones take Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization in relevant weapons, which is possible by level 3):
Level 5, 16 Dex Drone Mechanic with 2d6+5 (avg 12) Longarm, +7 to hit. Level 5 Combat Drone with 2d8+5 (avg 14) Heavy Weapon, +6 to hit. Against the CR6 Orcoran (EAC: 18) from First Contact, that's 5.4 expected damage from Mechanic, 5.6 expected damage from Drone. 11 damage total. Full attack by Mechanic at +3/+3: 6+5.6=11.6.

Level 5, 16 Dex Exocortex Mechanic with 2d8+5 (avg 14) Heavy Weapon, +9 to hit Exocortex target. Against Orcoran, 7.7 expected damage total. Full attack at +5/+5: 9.8.

This is just napkin math that I'd *love* to be proven wrong about it or find something I missed, since I was expecting that giving up all the flexibility/extra HP/extra action of the Drone would make the Exocortex stronger in combat, but it doesn't seem that's the case (or my expectation was wrong). This also seems to stay fairly consistent Levels 1-12 (which was my focus since that's the range of the first AP).

Only big assumption that you can't math out and may vary in actual play is whether it's likely both the Mechanic and the Drone can keep relevant higher-end weapons (or whether one would need to drop down to a previous tier, using a Equipment Level 2 weapon at 5th Level or something). However, since treasure only sells for 10% of its value now, my guess is it will make a lot more sense to keep gear you find rather than convert them to GP to buy your next big upgrade as we did in PF - so there will be more 'extra' relevant guns floating around to strap onto the Drone and keep its damage very close to what the Mechanic is using. And all that said, even in the example above if the Drone mechanic is using a Weapon Level 1 1d8 laser rifle, they still come out ahead on expected damage vs. the Exocortex.

Also worth noting that in the example above, the Exocortex Mechanic is going to have 3 extra feats to play around with, but in the absence of Feats that boost effective damage output beyond Weapon Prof/Specialization/Focus at this point in the game's lifecycle, that doesn't mean much. I'm sure once Ultimate ____ books start coming out that will change.

Maybe my expectations were wrong and the Exocortex has another area that it excels at instead of combat, but I would have thought the one that gave all the combat-related BAB and Feats would be the superior option.


Randomly curious, how are you getting a Longarm (and the relevant Feats) for the Drone Mechanic by Level 5?


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1: weapon prof: longarm
3: Versatile specialization
5: weapon focus

Liberty's Edge

I've been looking at the mechanic as well. At 7th with an exocortex you can get proficiency in advanced melee or heavy arms, I believe, so that's a point in it's favor. With both advanced melee and heavy armor as options, a strength build might be viable. Why are there no advanced operative weapons though?

Am I correct in assuming that if you choose Weapon Proficiency with the Exocortex mods, you don't also get specialization in it?

Grand Lodge

Klobbermeister wrote:
Randomly curious, how are you getting a Longarm (and the relevant Feats) for the Drone Mechanic by Level 5?

Unless I'm missing something, Longarm Proficiency at 1. Longarm Specialization/Focus at 3. The other one at 5. If you're human, you could get it by level 3, or take Heavy Armor to be even more Exocortex-like (and still have a drone).

Grand Lodge

shadowhntr7 wrote:

I've been looking at the mechanic as well. At 7th with an exocortex you can get proficiency in advanced melee or heavy arms, I believe, so that's a point in it's favor. With both advanced melee and heavy armor as options, a strength build might be viable. Why are there no advanced operative weapons though?

Am I correct in assuming that if you choose Weapon Proficiency with the Exocortex mods, you don't also get specialization in it?

The Exocortex level 1 that grants you Longarms specifically says you can get free Weapon Spec with it at Level 3 as you do other class-granted proficiency. It doesn't say the same thing about the Mod-granted Heavy Weapons proficiency. So my interpretation would be No.

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
shadowhntr7 wrote:

I've been looking at the mechanic as well. At 7th with an exocortex you can get proficiency in advanced melee or heavy arms, I believe, so that's a point in it's favor. With both advanced melee and heavy armor as options, a strength build might be viable. Why are there no advanced operative weapons though?

Am I correct in assuming that if you choose Weapon Proficiency with the Exocortex mods, you don't also get specialization in it?

You have your drone for the advanced melee or heavy prof. I've been looking at this pretty extensively to, and I can't see a way the drone isn't better.

As for why there are no advanced operative weapons, that's likely because of the damage curve, if you gave an operative better weapons with the damage boost it got it'd be overpowered.

To your last question, exocortex gets longarm and heavy armor prof for free and get specialization in longarms for free, but if it were to take heavy weapon it would need to take specialization in it with a feat.

It gets worse though, one thing I've been kicking around is putting a riding mod on my drone, per the mounted combat rules you can use a swift action to take cover under your mount and can take a move action to pull yourself back up, so the first round of combat you swift action down to cover at the end of the turn(granting you +4 to AC and +2 reflex saves) and then every turn pull yourself up as a move action and then swift action back down. So always under cover bonus.

The solution of course is for the enemy to attack your drone, but that's kind of the whole point, its basically your own personal tank you take to the party every game. Looking at the charts its AC scales really well and while it doesn't get stamina points it gets a decent amount of HP every level.

Designer

Peat wrote:
Also worth noting that in the example above, the Exocortex Mechanic is going to have 3 extra feats to play around with, but in the absence of Feats that boost effective damage output beyond Weapon Prof/Specialization/Focus at this point in the game's lifecycle, that doesn't mean much.

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in that philosophy. Just as one example, you could grab Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and Extra Resolve on the exocortex mechanic, netting you some solid advantages against Will saves and resolve per day, and there's others that are equally cool. That said, it's true that action economy is going to be a big help if you have enough top shelf weapons to go around and are willing to spend resources to catch up as much as you can to the exocortex. It's similar to the case with paladins where the mount is going to put out higher damage numbers than the weapon boost in ideal situations for the mount.

Grand Lodge

Mark Seifter wrote:


There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in that philosophy. Just as one example, you could grab Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and Extra Resolve on the exocortex mechanic, netting you some solid advantages against Will saves and resolve per day, and there's others that are equally cool. That said, it's true that action economy is going to be a big help if you have enough top shelf weapons to go around and are willing to spend resources to catch up as much as you can to the exocortex. It's similar to the case with paladins where the mount is going to put out higher damage numbers than the weapon boost in ideal situations for the mount.

On the only class with a Poor Will Save. Touche.


Shaudius wrote:


It gets worse though, one thing I've been kicking around is putting a riding mod on my drone, per the mounted combat rules you can use a swift action to take cover under your mount and can take a move action to pull yourself back up, so the first round of combat you swift action down to cover at the end of the turn(granting you +4 to AC and +2 reflex saves) and then every turn pull yourself up as a move action and then swift action back down. So always under cover bonus.

The solution of course is for the enemy to attack your drone, but that's kind of the whole point, its basically your own personal tank you take to the party every game. Looking at the charts its AC scales really well and while it doesn't get stamina points it gets a decent amount of HP every level.

I was contemplating this exact same thing.

Would you/the GM rule that you'd need to make a Survival check to use your mount for cover, as that's not exactly "direct(ing) your drone mount in battle"/"Fight from a Combat Trained Mount", per "Riding Saddle"? Or would you lump it all together and not have any Survival checks for anything in the "Ride a Creature" section of Survival?

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Klobbermeister wrote:


I was contemplating this exact same thing.

Would you/the GM rule that you'd need to make a Survival check to use your mount for cover, as that's not exactly "direct(ing) your drone mount in battle"/"Fight from a Combat Trained Mount", per "Riding Saddle"? Or would you lump it all together and not have any Survival checks for anything in the "Ride a Creature" section of Survival?

I would hope the GM wouldn't, I personally wouldn't. My reasoning is as follows: Survival says that the most common things you do with a mount don't require a survival check, mount, ride, or dismount. The mechanic description doesn't use the same language but it says you don't need to make a survival check to "direct your drone mount in battle." The survival skill says you need to make a check to "control mount in battle." I would argue that direct your drone mount in battle and control mount in battle are the same action, the DC of this check is 20. The cover DC is 15, I can't imagine that the designers envisioned letting you make a DC 20 survival check for free, but then having to do lower DC checks with survival to use any of the things you can do with a mount besides the ill-defined control mount in battle.


Shaudius wrote:

I would argue that direct your drone mount in battle and control mount in battle are the same action, the DC of this check is 20. The cover DC is 15, I can't imagine that the designers envisioned letting you make a DC 20 survival check for free, but then having to do lower DC checks with survival to use any of the things you can do with a mount besides the ill-defined control mount in battle.

The "Control Mount in Battle" check is to "control a mount not normally trained for combat...". This is not the case for the Drone, as it counts as a combat trained mount. So def NOT a DC 20 check.

I would argue that it's the DC 10 "Fight from a Combat Trained Mount" equivalent. Thus, I'm leaning toward Survival/checks being needed for anything other than that Action (as you don't need to guide your Drone with your knees). BUT, the Drone isn't a wild animal with volition of it's own...so I don't know that Survival would be the applicable skill either.

EDIT: I'm with Peat on his response for those reasons as well.

Grand Lodge

Klobbermeister wrote:

I would hope the GM wouldn't, I personally wouldn't. My reasoning is as follows: Survival says that the most common things you do with a mount don't require a survival check, mount, ride, or dismount. The mechanic description doesn't use the same language but it says you don't need to make a survival check to "direct your drone mount in battle." The survival skill says you need to make a check to "control mount in battle." I would argue that direct your drone mount in battle and control mount in battle are the same action, the DC of this check is 20. The cover DC is 15, I can't imagine that the designers envisioned letting you make a DC 20 survival check for free, but then having to do lower DC checks with survival to use any of the things you can do with a mount besides the ill-defined control mount in battle.

Maybe I'm just a mean GM, but I would, and here's why:

Yes, both checks are Survival checks, but one is using the skill to calm your mount down (more of animal psychology) and the other one is much more based on your own physical training (knowing how to grip a mount while riding on its side).

The Mechanic doesn't need to worry about the animal psychology part - they have perfect control over their mount via Custom Rig. However, that doesn't help them know how to physically balance along the side of the creature and not fall off/drop their gun/tip the mount over.

Same skill, but testing two different aspects of it.

Also, abilities don't do what they don't say they do...it doesn't say "you can control your mount in battle, and freely do all other mount-related things under a DC 20." That's more of the RAW excuse to be a jerk :)


The drone definitely beats out the exocortex on action economy and damage output, but as a fan of Ender, I just can't resist.

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Peat wrote:

Maybe I'm just a mean GM, but I would, and here's why:
Yes, both checks are Survival checks, but one is using the skill to calm your mount down (more of animal psychology) and the other one is much more based on your own physical training (knowing how to grip a mount while riding on its side).

The Mechanic doesn't need to worry about the animal psychology part - they have perfect control over their mount via Custom Rig. However, that doesn't help them know how to physically balance along the side of the creature and not fall off/drop their gun/tip the mount over.

That's fine, but its a Wisdom-based skill. I don't know why knowing how to physically balance would a Wisdom-based activity, it sounds like more of an acrobatics or athletics check to me, its also not anywhere in the skill's description, so you're kind of just doing the same think you accuse me of doing later on in your post, reading things into the rules that aren't there. To the RAW it appears survival is all animal psychology, hence things like why your mount still needs to make an athletics check to leap but you have to make a survival check to stay on(not also make your own athletics check.)

Peat wrote:


Also, abilities don't do what they don't say they do...it doesn't say "you can control your mount in battle, and freely do all other mount-related things under a DC 20." That's more of the RAW excuse to be a jerk :)

Pretty much all the other mount related activities assume you don't have complete control of your mount and it doesn't make sense to require survival checks for most of them, so you're telling me that I have to guide my drone mount that I have complete control over with one hand if I fail a wisdom based survival check, otherwise I can't guide a construct with my knees? Or that I can spur it on to move faster with a survival check, because it doesn't listen to me unless I hit it in just the right way? How does my physical training make my construct mount faster?

So, do those all require survival checks with a construct mount?


Shaudius wrote:


Pretty much all the other mount related activities assume you don't have complete control of your mount and it doesn't make sense to require survival checks for most of them, so you're telling me that I have to guide my drone mount that I have complete control over with one hand if I fail a wisdom based survival check, otherwise I can guide a construct with my knees? Or that I can spur it on to move faster with a survival check, because it doesn't listen to me unless I hit it in just the right way? How does my physical training make my construct mount faster?

So, do those all require survival checks with a construct mount?

Honestly? If I were GMing, it'd be an Acrobatics/DEX-based check. But there *would* be a check with the same results. DC15. Fail = No AC bonus, etc, per the Survival Skill.

Grand Lodge

how are you repairing your drone? you can only "heal" it by 10% once a day, and if you take the trick only by 25%. How are you making the AC better to me it seems low and the hp not that high. I can see that it can give you extra attacks but you and him at 3/4 BAB and once it has been destroy it takes a full day to get it back. I guess having a technomancer to "heal" the drone would help
EDIT: forgot the drone get full BAB, but overall question still apply


OtrovaGomas wrote:
how are you repairing your drone? you can only "heal" it by 10% once a day, and if you take the trick only by 25%. How are you making the AC better to me it seems low and the hp not that high. I can see that it can give you extra attacks but you and him at 3/4 BAB and once it has been destroy it takes a full day to get it back. I guess having a technomancer to "heal" the drone would help

Only once per day for free. You can also heal them every time you replenish your stamina by taking a break.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

It takes at least 3 levels for a combat drone to get online with heavy weapons.
1-small arms proficiency for free thanks to combat chassis
1-longarms proficiency
3-heavy weapon proficiency

Want to add in focus and specialization? Level 9. Granted, from level 3 and onward youre pretty much set for a good start in terms of dps olympics thanks to the action economy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

All drones get either Basic Melee or Small Arms for free. Combat drones get a weapon proficiency mod for free (long arms). You have 1 free mod to spend (heavy weapons). Weapon focus and versatile specialization take feats and can be had at level 1 and 3.

Grand Lodge

In my experience, quite often both mechanic and drone have to use a move action to get into position to attack. Since they only have 2 standards and a move to split between them, they don't always get 2 attacks per round.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Olivier Rayé-Lalonde wrote:

It takes at least 3 levels for a combat drone to get online with heavy weapons.

1-small arms proficiency for free thanks to combat chassis
1-longarms proficiency
3-heavy weapon proficiency

Want to add in focus and specialization? Level 9. Granted, from level 3 and onward youre pretty much set for a good start in terms of dps olympics thanks to the action economy.

That is not correct.

Starfinder CRB, Drones, pg. 74 wrote:
Your drone is proficient in your choice of small arms or basic melee weapons, and it gains specialization in that weapon type once you reach 3rd level.

With any drone, you get either small arms or basic melee weapons.

Combat Drone initial mods include weapon proficiency. You could use that to take Longarms proficiency.

All drones get one mod at level 1. You could use that to take heavy weapon proficiency.

Although you will not be able to afford the weapon, a level 1 mechanic can have a drone that knows how to use a heavy weapon.


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Now, I know I'm going to sound crazy here but... shouldn't the character be designed based off the character you'd like to play, not the math involved? When ever I see people who've done all this math I always see players who are trying to 'win' or 'survive' in a game where they make dying damn near impossible.

Also, I'm not sure what sort of Game Master you have, but I generally don't let PCs walk around civilized areas (where quite a bit of trouble can occur) with armed drones sporting heavy, and no doubt restricted, weaponry. Have you given consideration to what happens when you don't have access to your drone, or after your drone is destroyed (the drone doesn't keep on, keepin' on once the Mechanic falls in combat)? Combat drones are not small and they don't fold up to fit in your pocket. Chances are your PC can not just strut through the streets with a small tank near him.

Our Mechanic has gone through two drones already, it makes the Mechanic a larger target so all that math just draws more fire and attacks.

The Exocortex can function at anytime, in any environment and properly made can be quite the s**t starter.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each path. It's not in the math, as much people would like to believe. Ultimately it's what whatever you wanna go with.


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Hartbaine wrote:
Now, I know I'm going to sound crazy here but... shouldn't the character be designed based off the character you'd like to play, not the math involved? When ever I see people who've done all this math I always see players who are trying to 'win' or 'survive' in a game where they make dying damn near impossible.

Perhaps people would like to make informed decisions, rather than being told 'Sure, whatever. It all works out the same'?

Grand Lodge

Hartbaine wrote:


Combat drones are not small and they don't fold up to fit in your pocket.

Nope, but they do fold up and fit on your armor. (See Drone Meld )


BretI wrote:


Although you will not be able to afford the weapon, a level 1 mechanic can have a drone that knows how to use a heavy weapon.

Azimuth Artillery Laser is quite affordable at level 1...


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Hartbaine wrote:
When ever I see people who've done all this math I always see players who are trying to 'win' or 'survive' in a game where they make dying damn near impossible.

To my experience, whenever I see people doing math it means they care about their characters and the world they are going into enough to make the time investment to learn what's going on.

I'd much rather have players who ”try to win” than those who barely care enough about the game to learn the rules, let alone the math.

The Exchange

Personally I think there's a middle ground and that's the best point. I don't really enjoy games with those who care about nothing but the math and how their character can best be optimized, nor games with those who don't learn how their own character's abilities work. I really dislike the idea that there's a "right way" to build any character, doubly so in a system so new that people cant really be sure how the system works in broad strokes, and I really dislike those who say whatever it's all the same. But that's just me.

As to bringing heavy weapons into cities and towns, my reading at least of how the gear level system works is that as you gain levels you're picking up the permits and licenses needed for your gear. While I'd understand occasional higher security areas and more cautious towns it seems to me that by the rules my first level mechanic actually happens to have a pact world carry permit for the azumoth artillery laser installed on his drone. And really I'd expect anyplace that wouldn't let me carry my licensed and registered weapon to issue the same prohibition to my friend's flamethrowing pistol or the sword at his belt. They're actually only slightly less destructive after all, and might actually be more so.


Hartbaine wrote:
Also, I'm not sure what sort of Game Master you have, but I generally don't let PCs walk around civilized areas (where quite a bit of trouble can occur) with armed drones sporting heavy, and no doubt restricted, weaponry.

do you let soldiers sport heavy weaponry?

The Exchange

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I personally put a cheap glamered weapon fusion on my drones weapon but that's more for first contact situations and the rare instance where you can't take weapons than for any concern about permitting.


Hartbaine wrote:
Now, I know I'm going to sound crazy here but... shouldn't the character be designed based off the character you'd like to play, not the math involved? When ever I see people who've done all this math I always see players who are trying to 'win' or 'survive' in a game where they make dying damn near impossible.

The character I'd like to play can do some things well. I generally don't want them to be delusional about that. I'd rather know whether the numbers that I'm coming up with deliver the degree of competence I expect or not before I make the character, because creating a character based on what I'd like to play includes that they actually are competent in the areas I want them to be.


One is a tank the other a dps.

As mentioned before the Exocortex gets more feats. No damage feats available? Well obviously that means taking defensive feats.

At lvl 5 you're at least 2 feats if not 3 ahead. Diehard, Mobility, Lightning Reflexes, Extra Resolve, Fleet, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Toughness...


In terms of combat, ya drone wins, but the wireless hack ability the exocortex gets at level 5 is amazing, yes you can give your drone arms and be able to hack as well if it drives up to the terminal but you'll never be able to stand in the middle of the room with both hands while continuing to hack the security system wirelessly. Out of combat the exocortex is better, and while it does less damage in combat it's targeting system allows it to do more reliable damage. The neural shunt ability is a great save for a low will character. So it really comes down to what kind of character you want to play.


Both can hack at range. The exocortex is a little faster but doing it in combat kills your combat abilities.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ikiry0 wrote:
Both can hack at range. The exocortex is a little faster but doing it in combat kills your combat abilities.

For 5 levels, and even then, it only drops your drops your hit bonus modifiers by a few points.


Sedoriku wrote:
Ikiry0 wrote:
Both can hack at range. The exocortex is a little faster but doing it in combat kills your combat abilities.
For 5 levels, and even then, it only drops your drops your hit bonus modifiers by a few points.

Plus, if you're wirelessly hacking in combat you're probably in cover and prioritizing trying to survive until your hack is done, not shooting back.


5 levels is 1/4 of the game. That's a pretty significant amount of the game, especially when there is several levels until you get it in the first place.


You won't be hacking in every single combat. If you feel useless shooting a gun with -2 or 3 BAB, just hack alongside your AI and get it done faster.


No, I'm just saying...the Drone guy can hack at range too. The AI gets it done a bit faster but it's not unique to the exocortex, it's a core ability of the Mechanic.


So it's not that hacking in combat kills your combat abilities, it's that you are choosing to hack instead of shoot.

Grand Lodge

I think it's still an outstanding question whether the Skill Module interacts with the action economy limitations from Limited AI. Can the drone spend a Full Action doing computers without requiring Direct Control.

If it's allowed, then a Drone with the right Mods and Skills could spend its turn while the mechanic shoots (at a significant disadvantage since it has Intelligence of 6 though...)


Ikiry0 wrote:
No, I'm just saying...the Drone guy can hack at range too. The AI gets it done a bit faster but it's not unique to the exocortex, it's a core ability of the Mechanic.

But the drone itself can't hack at range. Your engineer is hiding in cover, R2D2 gets blown up trying to hack the door while standing in the open for multiple rounds. Now what?

Grand Lodge

That is a good point.


Xenocrat wrote:
But the drone itself can't hack at range. Your engineer is hiding in cover, R2D2 gets blown up trying to hack the door while standing in the open for multiple rounds. Now what?

The hacker hacks the door himself at range? Because that's his level 5 ability for being a mechanic(The exocortex bonus isn't being able to hack at range in the first place, that's a basic mechanic thing. Exocortext allow him to reduce his BAB to do it faster.). Why would you have your drone hack for you when you can do it without leaving cover, with almost certainly a much higher bonus (Better Int, Bypass class feature).


An exocortex mechanic is a better shot even without the BAB increase than the drone. In a hack-at-range-in-combat situation, I'd much rather have an exocortex than a drone.


That wasn't my point. Maccassar was talking about how the Exocortex ability to hack at range is great and I was pointing out that both mechanics get it.


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Ikiry0 wrote:
That wasn't my point. Maccassar was talking about how the Exocortex ability to hack at range is great and I was pointing out that both mechanics get it.

I understand that both get the remote hacking takes 1 full round action per computer tier so the ability to hack twice in one round at range is useful particularly for avoiding traps. I meant this more out of combat then in. If your drone walks up to a computer and starts hacking it, it is very noticeable. If you use your remote hack ability then you'd need a pretty decent bluff to hide that your hacking, which is not a class skill. My exocortex on the other hand does not. I could literally have a conversion with the guard while hacking his terminal. I think drone is better in combat, exo is better out of combat. Though in the mid to high levels I don't think the exo can keep up with the drones sheer adaptability.

The greatest weakness of the drone is that you need to be conscious to control it and you're pretty weak.


The only thing that's not being taken into account here is the possibility of Deadly Aim and the bonuses from the exocortex that bump it.

When you use deadly aim and other feats that calculate effects based on your BAB it factors in the increase from the cortex's combat tracking. So that means for my level 6 mechanic I end up with a +8 modifier to damage. Drones can't take the deadly aim feat.

I'm not sure how this factors into the "average damage" calculations you were pulling before but it was something I wanted to throw into the mix. I'm more a fan of building characters thematically myself, if I have a character who seems to suck either a) I haven't figured out how to use him right yet or b) he'll eventually die a glorious death and I'll roll up something else next time.


Well, just to clarify in the specific case of Deadly Aim, it's almost always a bad idea.

The penalty to hit is enough that it negates the bonus damage under most circumstances. Someone did some calculations and found that on average Deadly Aim was a net loss in DPR, because it's much more difficult to reach a point where your hits are practically guaranteed (unlike Pathfinder).


Yeah, having run the numbers on it...deadly aim is never worth it for damage per round unless you would hit on 2+ even with the deadly aim.

Numbers!

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