| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Italy shouldn't have too big a problem re-industrializing, provided that they can come to some kind of trade deal. Either they can build a lightning farm and hire a few druids for electricity, or they can trade with an Avistani nation for oil (if it exists on Golarion) or coal. They can quickly build (or retrofit existing) refining facilities to produce petrol etc. from any kind of hydrocarbon fuel.
A church suddenly realising (after 2000 years) that they were right all along (sort of)? There'd be a holy war by Christmas. The Italians would have a significant advantage over conventional troops (I'd like to see how well a lore warden fares up against a modern air force...) but would probably be totally unprepared for magic assaults or magic infiltration - dominate (or even just charm) person is a hell of a spell against someone with no knowledge of magic.
On Earth, we're suddenly going to have a lot fewer (or more) fish in the Mediterranean, because the Arcadian ocean (being an ocean) is going to have a different salinity to the Med (a reasonably well enclosed sea). In addition, a large portion of the Alps now suddenly stops at the edge of the sea. Huge avalanches would fall into the Med, both cooling it down and raising it. The south of France and lowlying areas of Croatia, Greece and North Africa will probably face severe floods. On the other hand, the view from the ski lodge would be amazing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If they get the God of the Old Testament, things might not be so easy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Things to bear in mind.
Absalom is DWARFED by Rome, italy's total population is worth at least 6 and possibly as many as 10 of the most populous nations in golarion.
Their active military is the size of the entire population of the largest city in Golarian.
Their military tech engages at ranges not even magic from a 20th level caster can touch. An M16's maximum effective range is about 400 yards further than a 20th level caster using a long ranged spell.
Given the effect of RPG's on stone walls, assuming they don't have lessor effect upon moving to golarion their military is liable to have a number of man portable weapons that can punch through walls of force.
Their leadership doesn't have the absolute power of a monarch, so the effects of domination and charms are likely to be mitigated somewhat by the checks and balances of their governmental system.
Espionage might help a golarion nation but the biggest issue is the difference in industrialization, and the sheer number of steps between alkenstar tech and modern earth tech that have reached a point where they're just assumed to be understood by any high school/college student much less actual scientists. Numeria may have similar tech but its more worshipped than understood.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There would be that matter of population. I'm not sure what the population of Golarion is but I would be willing to bet that it is far less than Italy's. As a post industrial Nation Italy's population density is very high compared to the agrarian nations of Golarion. That, is what I see as the biggest impact.
Rome alone has almost 10 times the population of Absolom. Magnimar has a population less than 1% of Rome's. Magnimar with a population of 16,000 would barely be considered a town in our world.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes but a 12th level wizards fireball has about a 300 yard range, and the cannon on a modern tank shoots with >90% accuracy at 10 times that range.
And italy isn't militaristic by modern standards, as i said before though, their army is literally the size of every living creature in the largest metropolis on golarion, armed with modern weaponry that engages at ranges 10-20 times further than the farthest range a max level wizard can throw a spell, and sensors guiding them that can functionally mimic blindsight/tremorsense.
Developer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Disease is being under-estimated here, especially given the Italian government would have the capability to weaponize it. That being said, YWH would have to ramp up his clergy and fast, or the entire country will become shadows/shades within a month. All of this assumes even greater forces wouldn't intervene, such as the Elder. But given the literacy rate of modern man, and how much we know about stuff like the Outer God's and Pathfinder as a whole, I'd give the Italians a 50-50 chance of accidentally cursing their entire country with demons/quiport/elder ones/shadows or becoming a hub of knowledge every other country will drool to trade with.
Probably more likely the gods will cloister the entire island for a few decades allowing only envoy contact. Especially due to disease.. Wobderbhow the osiriani pantheon just would be affected...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Things to bear in mind.
Their military tech engages at ranges not even magic from a 20th level caster can touch. An M16's maximum effective range is about 400 yards further than a 20th level caster using a long ranged spell.
No, no it wouldn't. All ranged weapons always get their range rescaled in PF. You would most likey see them as 120ft. ranged weapons, similar to the ranges you will see if you check out the technology guide or something similar that has automatic weapons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The biggest answer lies in "where in the ocean" does Italy find itself?
If it's far enough out, it may not have contact with the rest of Golarion for months.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, no it wouldn't. All ranged weapons always get their range rescaled in PF. You would most likey see them as 120ft. ranged weapons, similar to the ranges you will see if you check out the technology guide or something similar that has automatic weapons.Things to bear in mind.
Their military tech engages at ranges not even magic from a 20th level caster can touch. An M16's maximum effective range is about 400 yards further than a 20th level caster using a long ranged spell.
Why is that? The longbow range is pretty accurate, a max range shot in edward the 3rds time with a flight arrow was about 1200 feet. 10X the range increment of a PF longbow is 1000 feet.
So the 4000 meter max range of a tank cannon would be 12000 feet or a range increment of 1200 after which -2 penalties start applying. Way way way way way farther than even long ranged spells come from.
Muskets aren't terribly far off from a real world effective range either. If they nerf other modern weapons its straight up a "this is a game balance issue" not a "hey what if the real world invaded golarion" issue.
Thats before we even get into the advancement of military tactics beyond line up your armies and march toward each other in an open field.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with u Freire, better thinking about real dynamics than game balancing (ovviously if u want to translate it in sessions u must find the right game rules)
But u agree with me that a tank operator won't even see the blade wo kills him if he moves in the shadows, for ex?
Probably not but again, detection equipment for the military is really quite good. For example, do invisible people still give off heat? If so its pretty useless the instant knowledge of invisibility hits the military.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Other details:
Where was the Italian navy at the exact moment of transposition? Pick a date and clock-time and look up exactly what is going at that moment in time in Italy.
If you're using Golarion, by "canon" it's only, what, 1921 or 1922?, historical Italy that would be transitioning into current Golarion time. Lots of Great War veterans, all kinds of shenanigans and now the Kingdom of Italy is in the middle of a much larger ocean without a land neighbor to be seen. Utter radio quiet from outside of the country. On the upside, you have a country that is far less modern - which in many way is a Good Thing for this scenario. Instead of jet aircraft, aircraft carriers, modern artillery, APCs, main battle tanks and a society about to suffer utterly horrific casualties from the sudden loss of electrical power, let alone the lost sanity from no internet, at all, asides from the national version - you have a lightly industrialized (by our standards) nation using rough analogs to the equipment presented in Rasputin Must Die.
I'd consider 'porting in 1921-1922 Italy instead of modern Italy. I think that Italy would handle the transition to Golarion with a smaller loss of life, proportionately speaking.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, no it wouldn't. All ranged weapons always get their range rescaled in PF. You would most likey see them as 120ft. ranged weapons, similar to the ranges you will see if you check out the technology guide or something similar that has automatic weapons.Things to bear in mind.
Their military tech engages at ranges not even magic from a 20th level caster can touch. An M16's maximum effective range is about 400 yards further than a 20th level caster using a long ranged spell.Why is that? The longbow range is pretty accurate, a max range shot in edward the 3rds time with a flight arrow was about 1200 feet. 10X the range increment of a PF longbow is 1000 feet.
So the 4000 meter max range of a tank cannon would be 12000 feet or a range increment of 1200 after which -2 penalties start applying. Way way way way way farther than even long ranged spells come from.
Muskets aren't terribly far off from a real world effective range either. If they nerf other modern weapons its straight up a "this is a game balance issue" not a "hey what if the real world invaded golarion" issue.
Thats before we even get into the advancement of military tactics beyond line up your armies and march toward each other in an open field.
Why? That's because that's the way they make it. Everything is scaled down. Look at all the books with modern and futuristic weapons and look at their ranges. You won't find anything that goes much further than 200 ft. unless I missed something. They already have modern weapons in the game and how they function. There really is no speculation about how powerful they would be, anymore. So no, modern weapons aren't going to out ranging magic, as they have similar ranges in this game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why? That's because that's the way they make it. Everything is scaled down. Look at all the books with modern and futuristic weapons and look at their ranges. You won't find anything that goes much further than 200 ft. unless I missed something. They already have modern weapons in the game and how they function. There really is no speculation about how powerful they would be, anymore. So no, modern weapons aren't going to out ranging magic, as they have similar ranges in this game.No, no it wouldn't. All ranged weapons always get their range rescaled in PF. You would most likey see them as 120ft. ranged weapons, similar to the ranges you will see if you check out the technology guide or something similar that has automatic weapons.Things to bear in mind.
Their military tech engages at ranges not even magic from a 20th level caster can touch. An M16's maximum effective range is about 400 yards further than a 20th level caster using a long ranged spell.Why is that? The longbow range is pretty accurate, a max range shot in edward the 3rds time with a flight arrow was about 1200 feet. 10X the range increment of a PF longbow is 1000 feet.
So the 4000 meter max range of a tank cannon would be 12000 feet or a range increment of 1200 after which -2 penalties start applying. Way way way way way farther than even long ranged spells come from.
Muskets aren't terribly far off from a real world effective range either. If they nerf other modern weapons its straight up a "this is a game balance issue" not a "hey what if the real world invaded golarion" issue.
Thats before we even get into the advancement of military tactics beyond line up your armies and march toward each other in an open field.
Oh right, in pathfinder non spellcasters cant have nice things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mad Comrade: very good suggests.
I like to explore all the possibilities before putting them in practice and I like very much to do mental experiments, but I also love when everything is coherent with everything.So I ask u: it's possible Golarion is Syncronized with Pathfinder Earth version (with Cthulhu mysteries and no paizo and so on) in the '20 and with our Earth (or another version of our earth -in which, for ex, Italy goes to Gol.-) in 2017?
I take the moment even to ask why in many publications they say for ex 4713 it's synchronized to 2013 (apparently even at the beginning of Snows of S.) and in Rasp. the things goes differently.
Someone knows why?[I premit that I'm not so much convinced when in Rasp they put earth in the same universe of Gol., and I think this must be a cosmological misinterpretation. I think much more problable that even different Path/D&D world aren't in the same material plane, in different universes-because of the fact that instead u could pass for ex from Faerun to Golarion passing from City of Brass or other planar locations, so there are different Cities of Brass, different Elementaries Planes of fire, different plane-verses I'll say D&D Path world are in different universes, but in the same multiverse, sharing the same rules of physic and metaphysic and even some beings/ Locations (Asmo may be the same Asmo in Faerun and in Gol/ Abyss the same Abyss in Krynn and Gol -there are some reasons why I said they may share Abyss and not Limbus, instead-). (I take this consideration only in an internal coherence dynamic, volountary not thinking there are reasons, for ex, of intellectual properties that allows paizo develop to use names that Wizard can't register).
So Gol and Faerun are in different universes but in the same Multiverse; Gol and Earth (real earth; paizo earth; chtulu earth; sine requi earth -a nice European gdr I suggest everyone to try- and many other world are even far more ontological distant because situated in different Multiverses, that has little to shares one with the other in the way they are -but they are communicant-)
Well, in Golarion terms,in-game year corresponds to real-world year for the simplicity of publication and tracking multiple APs of events for publication. This is a matter of convenience. It is easy to remember 47## Golarion calendar is 20## on our own real-world calendar. For GMs like me this is great as I map out AP start-to-finish dates. As other campaigns/APs are run, the results of the previously played APs make 'the news' via bards, gossip and so on.
For example, I know that in my campaign the combined Council of Thieves/Kingmaker campaign began in 4709, concluding in spring of 4719. By comparison, the most recent events in effect are those of Hell's Rebels which wrapped up in November 4715 with Slumbering Tsar preceding Rappan Athuk in the spring of 4716.
Reign of Winter's chapter 5 establishes 'our Earth' in the same Material Plane corresponding to (current real-world year -94) if I recall correctly. Rasputin Must Die was published in 2013 setting Earth's time as 1919 (going on memory), during the tail end of the Russian Revolution. So, as of the beginning of Ruins of Azlant, it is now 1923 on Earth. The Corfu Incident is (as of today) a scant three weeks away from beginning. Benito Mussolini has been Prime Minister for about nine months. And so on.
The purpose for the 'cosmological misinterpretation' is for the later incorporation of Lovecraftian-Earth events to reverberate to Golarion. Not long hence - 2019 I think? - Great Cthulhu stirs in his sunken city of R'lyeh. Perhaps an AP will feature a powerful group of adventurers from Golarion that have to stuff him back into his bed lest he fully awaken and drive a great many worlds utterly insane.
For your purposes, I would borrow from Oceans of Eternity to handle the transition. Another recreational reference of note is Eric Flint's enjoyable 1632 series .
Keep in mind that the scale of geography you're transitioning is enormous by comparison to either 1632 or Oceans of Eternity. At the same time, we're talking an interplanetary-and-interplanar transition. I suggest that the Earth from which Nantucket was plucked in Oceans of Eternity be the same Earth this version of Italy is yoinked from if you desire a current-day Italy. Keep in mind that it is imperative that you decide on the precise time of day, date and year this Italy *poufs* to Golarion from. Clocks will probably be wonky or stop, people's circadium rhythm might be thrown off, and so on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
DIPLOMATICALLY
I suspect cheliax would get its ass righteously kicked not long after coming into contact with italy.
Devil worshipping slave holders? I suspect relations break down pretty quickly given the catholic bent of the nation and the sudden conversions when the nation sends like an imp messenger or contract devil to handle negotiations.
Edit: in fact I think Andoran is the closest thing a modern western nation would find to be palatable for an alliance
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keeping in mind the scale of transition, there are several very good reasons not to pluck over 116 thousand square miles of Earth with nearly 60 million people and slap them into the middle of the ocean. At a distance of 500 km you're probably about a smart enough distance. As a transposition the damage to both Earth and Golarion should be non-existent. If nothing else for the sake of simplicity. The drama will come with all the rest of what happens.
Nantucket is about 105 square miles, a vastly smaller difference in scope. 100-odd square miles is easy to hide by comparison. You also retain much finer control of what transitions over to Golarion and it gives the benefit of being able to drop it wherever you find convenient.
Having said my peace on recommended geographic scale ...
P.s Mad Comrade
Of course would be useful to make a picture of the moment in which the event occurs: for ex: Italy has 2 aircraft carrier, one or both are somewhere else in the world?
There are instead some foreigner warships or nuclear submarine in the teleported waters (a line at the center of Adriatic Sea, offshore of west Sardinia cost, north of Malta in the Channel of Sicily -Leaving so Lampedusa and Pantelleria Italian islands on Earth-)?
How many commercial foreigner transient ships (a Chinese cargo shipping east can lost GPS communication in the middle of the former Adriatic Sea and decided to navigate with maps in the direction of Greece, finding instead Cheliax and an astonished little wood ship crew, being the first, unprogrammed, contact)?
Some head of states in Rome for a Meeting?
Some important Italian (such as mr. Berlusconi) is abroad?
Example of the Chinese cargo underline how this events can changes many thingsAnd, for the Arcadian thrown in the Med
There are Avistani vessels there?
And so on
Getting a lot of this sort of information from a relatively current standpoint is going to take a lot of research. This is part of why I'd recommend 1923 Italy instead ... but ... it seems that you are Italian and may justifiably not have any remote interest in setting a game in that time period.
300+ miles out to sea is well over the horizon, and almost everything on Golarion operates on line-of-sight. You will want to be sure that the entire peninsula plus ancillary islands, Sicily, et al do not wind up somewhere important. Such as Mengakari, the Shackles, in the Eye of Abendego, actually displacing important chunks of submerged Azlanti islands, etc.
Native trade routes are rarely going to go so far out to sea. Given the incredible fuel ranges of modern naval vessels, odds are quite good that the Italians will be making first contact with whatever else - and they've got exceptionally good sensor systems of all sorts to reconnoiter the surrounding area. Satellites are gone since those are well outside of any atmospheric volume above the Italian land-and-water zone. For the sake of simplicity, stick to Italy's maritime border as the outermost limit of geographical transition. No more than a few miles out.
Both for Nathan and Comrade sentences.What can Italian find in Azlanti islands and cliffs?
(I imagine that they will focus their attention on Avistan, Garund and Arcadia instead of ruined cliffs, maybe send there one or two expeditions to study Azlanti ruins and, time later, to create air and ship bases, both military and civilian, to make the fuel sufficiency grow for aircraft and ships going to Arcadia; for the same purpose they may found a base in Varisian and Garundi west coast)
The answer is "it depends". The biggest hurdles are immediate needs, as you've previously mentioned. Food, potable water (since the rivers sourced from the Alps no longer have their water sources in at least some cases), medicine, electrical power and so on.
Feeding 60 million mouths when the country only domestically meets perhaps half of its food supply needs results in famine after a few weeks at most. Compare to 40 million mouths to feed in 1923 with what I presume is a much greater degree of agrarian and fishing self-sufficiency. Husbanding coal is much easier when its the primary power fuel source, the mines are productive and provides the principle fuel for steam engine turbines on the Italian Royal Navy's ships.
A modern Italy transitioning over will be dusting off its CTL (Coal-to-Liquid) technological archives and printing them out en masse before the modern-era power grid completely craps out on 'em.
Paper becomes incredibly valuable. Only a few locations are probably going to retain power generation - the masses will be reacquainting themselves with candles and the like.
Depending on the personalities involved, the country will either descend into anarchy, teetering on the precipice of annihilation, or pull together, weed out the incompetents very quickly and do its level best to survive. Famine and an astonishingly-fast depletion of medical supplies will probably kill off 25 - 40% of the overall population. 1923 Italy, being much more heavily armed and far less dependent on exotic pharmaceuticals and electricity to exist, should fare far better. The death toll will still be grim, perhaps as many as 1-in-7 or 1-in-8 die during the first few months.
Personalities are going to be the determining factor in how the Italians of either era set about adapting to their sudden new environment. With radar and sonar (even on many recreational boats), while power for them lasts, they have incredible sensory capabilities. It will not be easy to surprise the Italians - what will surprise them is what they encounter.
Because of the do-or-die-even-more nature of what the Italians suddenly find themselves dropped into I believe that they would 'button up' for several years. They have millions to feed and will probably experience a sudden population boom after the first year or two as the condoms and birth control pills/equivalent short-term population control method supplies are burned through. Semi-intelligent leadership will anticipate this.
Entertainment-based occupations as a principle thing are going to go away very quickly. Italy-in-the-Sea needs farmers, fishermen, machinists, dentists, doctors, teachers, you name it. Entertainment keeps up morale, so at first the existing, in-country crop of celebrities and pop stars et al will be tasked with keeping up morale and many I suspect will do so of their own accord.
Comparatively rudimentary pharmaceutical production will be stepped up as fast as possible. Because of analgesic and antibiotic needs across the country penicillin, marijuana (maybe - you know Italy far better than I do!) and probably a small supply of opiate-derivative crops are going to be necessary.
It's staggering the implications of what it would take to try and keep as many alive and fed as possible in this scenario.
And, I'm very curious (we may not underestimate how interesting could be how things goes at the same time on earth.)
How our culture and cultural, scientific, religious, philosophical, psychological, way of considering things, changes?
How global agenda changes?
(Obviously global economy at the beginning goes into an unprecedented recession, by the losing of Italy, which represent more than 2% of global GDP; and even political issues for UE and NATO first of all)
Than we probably have flooding and tsunami for submarine landslides due to different conformation of the sea bottom at the borders of transplanted Azlanti Pocket and Med.
Unlike Golarion, Earth is not receiving an entire inhabited nation in return. An Italy-sized swath of ocean floor and water one hopes is all Earth has to worry about. What horrors lurk within are in trouble since they're going to very quickly be surrounded, quarantined and if they're lucky they won't be obliterated with depth charges and torpedoes.
RmD implies that magic works just fine - the same as it does on Golarion - just that it's been very quiet due to the onset of the Age of Reason and the various iterations of Industrialization and Science.
Economically speaking for Earth, a 2% loss is a recession, not a global economic collapse, I think. Societal effects could occur if anything sentient, non-hostile and able to communicate effectively is able to keep itself from getting blown up or shot full of bullets. Rescue missions, constant patrolling to scour the new waters free of menaces to the world-at-large, the Earth-that-was is going to be busy for some years dealing with the disappearance. It is probably beyond the scope of play-ability to explore that side of the equation in-game.
Then we will see invasive strange "alien" species (a part from sea dragons etc, even little things, such as kinds of sharks we don't have. Than we sudden realize that Italy isn't just gone, but that something else has taken it's place, something coming from somewhere else. There will be a race to explore the Azlanti Ocean Pocket. Some boats, in stormy days will be sunk by krakens, Azlanti ruins will be discovered, maybe someone will be able to photograph low azlanti, the most astonishing discover.
This would probably be considered as confirmation of parallel dimension theory and similarly esoteric quantum physics type of stuff in modern Earth.
For purposes of magic I'll say in The Azlanti pocket it still work, than it loses gradually power with the distance, having some effect till southern Spain, southern Scandinavia, Transylvania, Cyprus, North African Coastal Zone.Arcane magic will work in that area, even Druidic, but not clerical. In the Azlanti Ocean Pocket area magic is complete functional. In the rest of the world only artifactive magic and not cast magic.
How this event will change music, literature, science, common sense, for those who remains in this changed earth?
Too hard to predict. Initially expect movies, usually badly done, such as Cloverfield or Monsters. Millions of memes. Zealots declaring it a for-sure harbinger of the End Times. (Which would be a really rude surprise if certain Daemonic 'bosses' came strolling along as a result, but let's not presume.)
I refer you to the earlier excellent posts re: Vatican City and those who know more about the Roman Catholic Church than I do. On the upside, the current Pope seems like an awesome guy. Hopefully he's in Vatican City when the transposition hits...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Consider the impact of spells like Charm Person and Dominate Person on the leadership of a country that has zero experience with magic.
It's not combat or technology that would ultimately decide the countries fate, it is the ability to maintain free will.
There are so many ancient unwarded crypts and catacombs in rome that an undead scourge is inevitable unless someone thinks to check
There are so many ancient unwarded crypts and catacombs in rome that an undead scourge is inevitable unless someone thinks to check
For some reason all I can think of is a specific young girl entombed in Palermo's catacombs in a glass coffin.
She's been there since her death in WWII and still looks like she could sit up at any moment.
charm person et al is more likely to originate from spontaneous ability inside Italy than outside. Being more than 300 miles out to sea with Golarion's shabby naval tech (by comparison) is a massive buffer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alright, which one of you jokers swapped my flash of insight potion with Cayden's booze?
Alright, which one of you jokers swapped my flash of insight potion with Cayden's booze?
Not the insight you were looking for, oh half-burnt one. ;)
I mean, if its "modern nation has to come to golarian and use the rules set down by paizo in their efforts to make a balanced game" Its really only the population, and knowledge of things like sanitation and modern medicine thats going to give the nation an edge and they'll have to be pretty careful.
If its, "things stop being an abstraction and behave the way they did in the real world" i really don't think even magic and monsters are enough to stop a modern nation from taking over whatever it is they choose to take over.
Infiltration presumes knowledge of 116,000+ square miles inhabited by 60 million (and dropping) victims are there for the taking. With the distance involved, the Italians are, for all practical purposes, safe from the natives until they are either discovered or reveal themselves. Given the immediate needs problems, revealing themselves is ... unlikely until they've solved their new problems and buried 10-20 million dead. And dealt with the sudden influx of 'real, live, working magic' into their midst.
This last will serve to keep them largely isolated for a decade at least. One does not simply sail to Displaced Italy. ;)
You could easily run several campaigns just adapting Displaced Italy to Golarion before introducing significant Golarion-native elements to the table.
1st campaign is surviving, then adapting, to the displacement. Grim at first, lots of nasty stuff, with lots of player-driven input into the future of Displaced Italy.
2nd campaign are the children of the 1st campaign, setting out to explore the world, based in large part on the decisions made during the first campaign.
And so on.
My suggestion would be to further distance Displaced Italy off shore, say about 1,000 km or a bit more, for this scenario. Set the first campaign at an arrival time of ~4675 A.R. by Golarion's calendar. This lets your 2nd generation campaign pick up with Rise of the Runelords "on schedule" in 4707. ;)