Androids with the Tensile Reinforcement armor upgrade


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Androids can have 1 armor upgrade, that takes only 1 slot and can be in light armor...

(page 205) TENSILE REINFORCEMENT: When calculating your armor’s hardness and Hit Points (see page 409), treat it as if its item level were 5 higher.

Do you guys think this could apply to the Android's HP? (probably not, but I thought it looked fun)


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Obviously not. An android isn't its armor.


Nope.

Might be an interesting house rule to come up/play around with though.


Voss wrote:
Obviously not. An android isn't its armor.

Untrue...though I'd agreed with this viewpoint up until I looked closer.

Per the Android description under 'Upgrade Slot' (page 42): "Regardless of whether androids are wearing physical armor, they can use this slot to install any one armor upgrade that could be installed into light armor."

So the android need not be wearing armor to equip the Tensile Reinforcement mod per RAW. Am I missing something?

((sorry, missed the part of the OP regarding boosting Android hp...reading for comprehension is hard... ;) ))


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At which point, wouldn't it apply to any armour they happen to put on?


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An Android body with Jump Jets, tho!!!


How precisely does this Android ability work? Is it their only racial ability?


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this ability needs to be clarified.


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at first level there is only a few armor upgrades a android could even afford ,this being one of them, it would make sense that it would apply to the android itself just as a forcefield or any other one would the question is just as above, just it give the andriod +5 levels of hp as indicated, shouch would be a extra 20 hp boost at level 1, which is pretty signifcant for 150 credits.


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Androids do not have an "item level" though so this mod does nothing for them.


I would laugh a player out of the room if they tried to stick this in an Android. Its clearly intended for equipment and not people.


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all armor mods are intended for equipment, not people.. the slot is specifically giving androids that ability to use that. and i would consider the level of the andriod the level of the slot for this purpose, the more i read this particular skill id run it as level of the andriod and consider it like reinforced skeleton and musculature, essentually a solid buff, powerful at first level but at 5 hps only a level its going to quickly outmatched by other mods, like forcefields and its only 1 slot, the kicker here though, its for 150 credits, it way to cheap and aceessible compared to deflective reinforcement for the benifits


Unless something has changed drastically for androids from Pathfinder to Starfinder, androids have neither a hardness nor an item level (?). So I would assume this does nothing. Not to mention that gaining extra hit points as if being five levels higher (so, something like 20-30 hit points by Pathfinder standards) for a mere 150 credits sounds quite a bit unbalanced, at least at low to mid levels.


Which is a fun houserule, but not a by the book rule. Class levels are are not the same as item levels. So a 5th level Android would have an effective Item level of N/A, because Androids are not items.

Edit: ninjaed


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by that logic, non of the armor upgrades can be used on andriods as most if not all of them specifically say, light and medium armor only, is a android a light or medium armor?
i think that the android specifically gets the exeption ruling on this, else having a armor slot mod becomes essenstially for almost every item on the list outside of a handful that specifically say no. its a light item, and have no bulk even. would you consider deflective reinforment a upgrade thats reasonable. the only kicker here is the class/item level. im thinking the devs just didnt do the diligence on the item and put in the andriod clause for it


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racs333 wrote:

by that logic, non of the armor upgrades can be used on andriods as most if not all of them specifically say, light and medium armor only, is a android a light or medium armor?

The Android racial ability specifically says they can install a mod that works on Light Armors, so yes, they can have Light Armor mods. The racial ability says absolutely nothing about the Android being considered to have an Item Level.


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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
racs333 wrote:

by that logic, non of the armor upgrades can be used on andriods as most if not all of them specifically say, light and medium armor only, is a android a light or medium armor?

The Android racial ability specifically says they can install a mod that works on Light Armors, so yes, they can have Light Armor mods. The racial ability says absolutely nothing about the Android being considered to have an Item Level.

i think edited my post above, but yes, i think they just didnt account for this specific mod, its not a truly broken mod, its just poorly worded for this specific race, like a few items in this book, hopefully they will address it in the errata


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racs333 wrote:
at first level there is only a few armor upgrades a android could even afford ,this being one of them...

The android could simply leave the upgrade slot empty if no suitable upgrades exist at first level, right? And simply fill it when something useful becomes available later on?

And from what I have gathered, most armor upgrades basically benefit the wearer of the armor anyway (someone mentioned jump jets and I think forcefields?), so installing them in the android itself does the same thing in the end. This particular upgrade (Tensile Reinforcement) seems to affect only the armor itself via strengthening its hardness and hit points, while doing basically nothing for the wearer. So I would simply see it as an exception to the android's upgrade slot and what can be installed in it.


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racs333 wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
racs333 wrote:

by that logic, non of the armor upgrades can be used on andriods as most if not all of them specifically say, light and medium armor only, is a android a light or medium armor?

The Android racial ability specifically says they can install a mod that works on Light Armors, so yes, they can have Light Armor mods. The racial ability says absolutely nothing about the Android being considered to have an Item Level.
i think edited my post above, but yes, i think they just didnt account for this specific mod, its not a truly broken mod, its just poorly worded for this specific race, like a few items in this book, hopefully they will address it in the errata

No they accounted for it, or rather, they didn't need to.

Androids do not have an Item Level, so this mod does absolutely nothing for them. You can think and want for them to have an Item Level, but nothing in the Android ability remotely implies that they have/gain one.


F. Castor wrote:
racs333 wrote:
at first level there is only a few armor upgrades a android could even afford ,this being one of them...

The android could simply leave the upgrade slot empty if no suitable upgrades exist at first level, right? And simply fill it when something useful becomes available later on?

And from what I have gathered, most armor upgrades basically benefit the wearer of the armor anyway (someone mentioned jump jets and I think forcefields?), so installing them in the android itself does the same thing in the end. This particular upgrade (Tensile Reinforcement) seems to affect only the armor itself via strengthening its hardness and hit points, while doing basically nothing for the wearer. So I would simply see it as an exception to the android's upgrade slot and what can be installed in it.

Armor mods can be readily replaced, and it's simple to do so.


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I suspect they'll have to expand on 'constructed' races in the bestiary or a further book on magic. There are going to be issues with spells that interact with constructs and hardness or item level once they come out. At that point, this item will probably get clarified. I suspect they'll have to assign 'effective item level' to androids at that will then interact with this mod. Until then, it probably doesn't do anything.


We have just hous-ruled that on an android it provides DR 1/magic. It is a good balance for a level 1 racial trait and magic bypasses due to interface malfunction. The tech can't stop the arcane energies. Player is satisfied and it doesn't break anything.


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Owen recently answered this question in another thread:

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
An android is not armor, so even if they install that armor mod, it has no effect. RAW it would increase their armor's HP and hardness, since that's what the upgrade says it does, but that's fairly silly.


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Would it not just simply give them a DR of 5 seeing as they would have harder... Skin?


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No, because it effects hardness. Hardness is *not* DR.

Just because an armor mod exists, doesn't mean its useful for an android. The "don/doff armor quickly" mod doesn't do anything for them, either.


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Metaphysician wrote:
The "don/doff armor quickly" mod doesn't do anything for them, either.

Why wouldn't it? I can totally imagine a "hairy" android covered in mechanical cilia that would grasp nearby armor and help to done it more quickly, or to slough it off in short order.


In this case, because the Exit Pod can only be installed in heavy or powered armor, and the android's racial ability is limited to upgrades that can be installed in light armor. It also has no effect on how quickly one can get the armor on anyway; that is a function of the armor's item level, and is not presently changed by any upgrades.


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Metaphysician wrote:

No, because it effects hardness. Hardness is *not* DR.

Just because an armor mod exists, doesn't mean its useful for an android. The "don/doff armor quickly" mod doesn't do anything for them, either.

I came to check this out mostly because a friend of mine house rules that it would allow a DR 5 towards the person wearing it, seeing as there is a rule in Pathfinder that explains hardness on skin to represent DR, and to have hardness on a person's skin would represent a "thick hide" that would require more damaging weapons to Pierce. I found it a cool way to integrate the fact that not all armor upgrades work inside the Android, I honestly think having a battery charger as your upgrades slot is the best use for it though. Makes you the recharge center of any journey.


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I disagree with the posts that this shouldnt apply to androids. Androids are by definition a construct and a humanoid. A construct is, in fact an item. Additionally, I think that the fact that androids have an armor upgrade slot indicate that as a construct, their hide/body is on some level treated like a suit of light armor with an AC bonus of +0 and one upgrade slot. If you increase the HP of the 'armor' it should act as ablative HP that would have to be repaired/replaced later. Armor is given HP of x+3/level and the tensile reinforcement treats the armor as if it were 5 levels higher. The 'item level' of the android is immaterial, the +3 HP per level would apply to the 'five levels higher.' It may seem like a bit of an exploit, but I would think the android gets bonus HP of 15 (maybe 5 if you rule that their 'armor' doesnt qualify as a sturdy item and gets +1 HP/level instead of 3).

I would then rule that these HP act as temporary and once used, the upgrade must be reapplied. If the # of credits is a concern, charge an installation fee and make the cost more in line with a level 1 augmentation.


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Constructs aren't items, they are creatures.


Protoman wrote:

Owen recently answered this question in another thread:

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
An android is not armor, so even if they install that armor mod, it has no effect. RAW it would increase their armor's HP and hardness, since that's what the upgrade says it does, but that's fairly silly.

So when the lead game developer says this is how it works I ususally go with it. Especially when it makes sense.


If a player insists that they can install this that's fine. But that armor and HP only apply in Sunder attempts, not normal attacks.


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Which, since you can't sunder an android, means it does nothing.


Neal Hennessy wrote:

I disagree with the posts that this shouldnt apply to androids. Androids are by definition a construct and a humanoid. A construct is, in fact an item. Additionally, I think that the fact that androids have an armor upgrade slot indicate that as a construct, their hide/body is on some level treated like a suit of light armor with an AC bonus of +0 and one upgrade slot. If you increase the HP of the 'armor' it should act as ablative HP that would have to be repaired/replaced later. Armor is given HP of x+3/level and the tensile reinforcement treats the armor as if it were 5 levels higher. The 'item level' of the android is immaterial, the +3 HP per level would apply to the 'five levels higher.' It may seem like a bit of an exploit, but I would think the android gets bonus HP of 15 (maybe 5 if you rule that their 'armor' doesnt qualify as a sturdy item and gets +1 HP/level instead of 3).

I would then rule that these HP act as temporary and once used, the upgrade must be reapplied. If the # of credits is a concern, charge an installation fee and make the cost more in line with a level 1 augmentation.

A for creativity!

I really like this response.

Maybe following the book :

"Any other piece of equipment has a number of Hit Points equal
to 5 + its item level"

So 6 HP as temporary is pennies and the cost of the item is a burden early.
When u get more levels 6 HP is just flowering.


Still, I should think that this being the Rules Questions forum and with Mr. Stephens having weighed in, the matter is more or less resolved. Anything else probably touches upon the realm of house rules and thus it is more appropriate for the Homebrew forum.

Just my two credits anyway... :-)

Wayfinders

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With all due respect to the game design lead, you gave androids an armor expansion slot. If you want to exclude items that can be applied to androids, it should be delineated in the ruled, not being just called 'Silly', and therefore forbidden. After all, many would consider the entire genre silly.


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With all due respect, I’d find something more meaningful to do rather than necroing threads just to take pot shots at the Designers.


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Metaphysician wrote:
Which, since you can't sunder an android, means it does nothing.

I've heard it said that you can't sunder worn armor either.

The Exchange

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Ravingdork wrote:
I've heard it said that you can't sunder worn armor either.

I've seen it said as well, but I'm not sure the basis for thinking this.

Shadow Lodge

Your item level of BLERGH cannot be treated as 5 higher, because 5 higher than BLERGH is still a null set.


So a non-existant item level (i.e. 0) can't be raised by 5 item levels to a positive value of 5 by your logic then? Because that makes sense!

Shadow Lodge

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Non existent and 0 aren't the same thing. Its like trying to put increase the RAM of a tennis ball by putting a chip in the middle.


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Shaudius wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I've heard it said that you can't sunder worn armor either.
I've seen it said as well, but I'm not sure the basis for thinking this.

Sunder

You deal damage to one object held in the target’s hand or accessible on its body. The object must be something that could be drawn easily by the target as a move action (see Draw or Sheathe a Weapon on page 247). The damage is reduced by an amount equal to the object’s hardness (see Smashing an Object page 409).

I think it probably has something to do with the fact that armor is not something that could be "drawn easily by the target as a move action," which would preclude it from being a legal target for a sunder attempt.


Armor has to be "sunderable" because it has upgrades (namely, the aforementioned Tensile Reinforcement) specifically to increase its hardness and hit points against attack. "Smash an Object" also calls out armor and gives it base HP equal to 15 + 3x its level.


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yet the rules seem to clearly state that it cant be and allowing it to be brings up other issues.. mainly how do you hit someone hard enough to hurt their armor but not them?

One of my players took this upgrade and as far as we can tell it has no viable use what so ever currently so I refunded their credits and they chose something else until this matter gets some clarity.


Ravingdork wrote:
armor is not something that could be "drawn easily by the target as a move action,"

You haven't seen what the space ladies in those less than reputable parts of Absalom Station can do. It's clearly only a swift action for them.

Joke aside, yes, as of current rules, there's a strong argument to be made for Armor not to be sunderable (and I don't find RAI easy to discern in that particular case).
This leaves the tensile reinforcement in a weird position, because I can't see lots of situations where an unattended suit of armor would take damage.


I believe hardness reduces energy damage as well as physical damage. This would mean that in a corrosive enviorment having a sufficent harness would make your armor immune to the enviorment's effects. So maybe that's one case where tensile reqnforcment is a real benefit? Still kinda an edge case, but the upgrade is cheap so...


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baggageboy wrote:
I believe hardness reduces energy damage as well as physical damage. This would mean that in a corrosive enviorment having a sufficent harness would make your armor immune to the enviorment's effects. So maybe that's one case where tensile reqnforcment is a real benefit? Still kinda an edge case, but the upgrade is cheap so...

yeah it does and as far as I can tell thats the upgrades only current use. I could even see that being the entire point of it ( to help avoid damage by environmental effects ) but then they limited damage to your suit to only corrosive so it its pretty niche atm.


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Just because armor is not subject to the Sunder combat maneuver, doesn't mean there are never circumstances where armor can be damaged. Armor-eating monsters, crates of space suits crashing to the ground and possibly being intact, the GM ruling that a certain attack is so big that you need to save vs armor damage, etc.

The Exchange

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Ravingdork wrote:
I think it probably has something to do with the fact that armor is not something that could be "drawn easily by the target as a move action," which would preclude it from being a legal target for a sunder attempt.

Why couldn't armor be easily drawn as a move action, you could certainly rule it so, but I don't recall anything in the rules saying you couldn't draw armor as a move action were you to be carrying it. It only weighs a couple bulk in most cases.

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