How does the Detective specialization stand up, good for a former cop-styled character?
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1. Back on track, is it possible you might be able to tell me anything about the Mechanic that you did like? I have a friend who's been looking to play one.
2. Or anything about Themes that you liked as well. Less general, more specific. Any cool or standout abilities?
1. The mechanic is a mixed bag for me, which is why I said it didn't interest me. I'll begin with exocortex. Exocortex seems to be a weird middleground option which tries to be something between Soldier and Operative - part fighter, part skill monkey, but does it in a relatively boring way - 99% of the time, I'd personally prefer to be either Soldier or Operative. The pet robot option, however, is quite a bit better. I dislike the way pet robot works as it makes honestly no sense to me thematically and implies that AI in Starfinder is literally worse than those we have today, but it actually functions decently well mechanically - as levels progress, you get ever better action economy and can utilise that to fight pretty well.
2. They are extremely varied, which is what appeals a lot to me. Some give fluffy things like "you can find your fans of any profession who will have helpful attitude on any planet in the universe" of Icon. Some give more directly mechanical things, such as bonuses to tracking down enemies for Bounty Hunter.
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So what this something about torture related mystic ability associated with Zon-Kuthon and Devourer also being associated with Iomedae?
Like, is that a typo, or is Paizo seriously going with "LG and Torture goes together!"? :D
It might be a reference to Iomedae torturing PC's for no good reason whatsoever using trumpets in WotR if they answer her questions about her personal life incorrectly.
How does the Detective specialization stand up, good for a former cop-styled character?
It looks pretty cool. Honestly, as long as you aren't Thief or Daredevil, all the specialisations are good. Those two, however, are blatantly significantly weaker than any other and are mechanically screwed over for no good reason - by playing as either of them, you're taking a deliberate handicap.
How does the Detective specialization stand up, good for a former cop-styled character?It looks pretty cool. Honestly, as long as you aren't Thief or Daredevil, all the specialisations are good. Those two, however, are blatantly significantly weaker than any other and are mechanically screwed over for no good reason - by playing as either of them, you're taking a deliberate handicap.
This might be a silly question, but let's say I make a detective. I get a +4 to dex-related things. But if my dex is a 12, does that make it so I have a +5? or does that +4 not stack? Thats the only thing I can think of that might bring them all to a level playing field, but otherwise yeah, sounds like those 2 classes get the short end. Maybe just toss in a +2 instead of the full 4 to preserve that balance? I dunno.
This might be a silly question, but let's say I make a detective. I get a +4 to dex-related things. But if my dex is a 12, does that make it so I have a +5? or does that +4 not stack? Thats the only thing I can think of that might bring them all to a level playing field, but otherwise yeah, sounds like those 2 classes get the short end. Maybe just toss in a +2 instead of the full 4 to preserve that balance? I dunno.How does the Detective specialization stand up, good for a former cop-styled character?It looks pretty cool. Honestly, as long as you aren't Thief or Daredevil, all the specialisations are good. Those two, however, are blatantly significantly weaker than any other and are mechanically screwed over for no good reason - by playing as either of them, you're taking a deliberate handicap.
I don't really understand what you tried to ask.
Detective is WIS-secondary, using Sense Motive for Trick Attacks.You would likely want to start with 16 DEX, 16 WIS.
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At the same level the operative's edge hits +3 (the same bonus as Skill Focus), they get an ability (specialization skill mastery) that allows them to take 10 with any skill they have Skill Focus with, even if its not normally allowed.
It's not a dead feat. Its benefit just becomes something unique only operatives have.That is still poor design.
Abilities within the same class not stacking is unfun for the players and feels bad.
Have to disagree with you. Not stacking large bonuses that kick the random number generator in the head is _good_ design.
'Unfun for players' is _entirely_ subjective. Skilled enough to get off the lol!random (always 5%) failure chance for stuff the character would have mastered is a fundamentally good thing.
This might be a silly question, but let's say I make a detective. I get a +4 to dex-related things. But if my dex is a 12, does that make it so I have a +5? or does that +4 not stack? Thats the only thing I can think of that might bring them all to a level playing field, but otherwise yeah, sounds like those 2 classes get the short end. Maybe just toss in a +2 instead of the full 4 to preserve that balance? I dunno.How does the Detective specialization stand up, good for a former cop-styled character?It looks pretty cool. Honestly, as long as you aren't Thief or Daredevil, all the specialisations are good. Those two, however, are blatantly significantly weaker than any other and are mechanically screwed over for no good reason - by playing as either of them, you're taking a deliberate handicap.I don't really understand what you tried to ask.
Detective is WIS-secondary, using Sense Motive for Trick Attacks.
You would likely want to start with 16 DEX, 16 WIS.
Probably because I don't know how the class works lol, though I think I'm starting to get it. Will just need to wait a week or so to get deep into it myself. Can't wait!
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It might be a reference to Iomedae torturing PC's for no good reason whatsoever using trumpets in WotR if they answer her questions about her personal life incorrectly.So what this something about torture related mystic ability associated with Zon-Kuthon and Devourer also being associated with Iomedae?
Like, is that a typo, or is Paizo seriously going with "LG and Torture goes together!"? :D
Perhaps :D Still, I wanna get developer answer on that if they noticed someone slipped that in since its really weird that LG god is associated with "Mindbreaker". Also mindbreaker is the one with once per day at will phantasmal killer right? Sounds like its supposed to be evil npc(since evil pcs are kinda assumed to be rarer) thing, so giving access to LG god doesn't sound intended either since it sounds really powerful.
Not sure if star finder will have the same M/CD problems. at least i'm not. (I don't have book yet <<jealous jealous jealous>>.)Honestly, it was weird that it ever did anything else. Running fast does not make you more accurate. You're basically doing 2 move actions, something that would normally already be a turn, and then you get a standard action attack anyways, and with a bonus for actually no reason? Like, there's more momentum, but you're probably swinging more wildly too. There's a lot of tell to you charging too. It should be reasonably easier to dodge a charge than a normal attack.True, though with Martial/Caster Disparity in Pathfinder, it makes some sense. No need to penalize them further. Or so I remember the point being made a while back by... someone.
There is some Caster/Martial disparity, but the gap between the two seems to be significantly smaller than in Pathfinder.
Even though casters still get the shinier toys, martials seem to actually be able to decently function without casters in the party now.
Perhaps :D Still, I wanna get developer answer on that if they noticed someone slipped that in since its really weird that LG god is associated with "Mindbreaker". Also mindbreaker is the one with once per day at will phantasmal killer right? Sounds like its supposed to be evil npc(since evil pcs are kinda assumed to be rarer) thing, so giving access to LG god doesn't sound intended either since it sounds really powerful.It might be a reference to Iomedae torturing PC's for no good reason whatsoever using trumpets in WotR if they answer her questions about her personal life incorrectly.So what this something about torture related mystic ability associated with Zon-Kuthon and Devourer also being associated with Iomedae?
Like, is that a typo, or is Paizo seriously going with "LG and Torture goes together!"? :D
Yeah, Mindbreaker is the one with at-will Phantasmal Killer.
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More on themes: I feel like Icon is the most powerful of the themes. While it doesn't give many straight up mechanical bonuses, the fluff benefits it gives are virtually reality-bending.
At the same level the operative's edge hits +3 (the same bonus as Skill Focus), they get an ability (specialization skill mastery) that allows them to take 10 with any skill they have Skill Focus with, even if its not normally allowed.
It's not a dead feat. Its benefit just becomes something unique only operatives have.
I must have missed that (clearly I'm not reading the Operative section that carefully), thanks for pointing it out Owen. Still feels a little clunky, but no more so than some of Pathfinder's weirdness.
Any word on the Solarion interaction? Or is skill focus in a Sidereal skill just something they'll probably want to avoid?
And is it true that the Ghost Operative shouldn't be getting the +4 to stealth-based trick attacks?
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Solarian seems irredeemably bad upon a closer inspection.
Weapon Solarian deals less damage than normal weapons with their Solar Blade, so you generally always want to go Armour Solarian.
Photon is just straight up worse than either Soldier or Operative - it deals less damage than either and doesn't offer anything but damage.
Gravitation is... just terrible. It offers a little bit of CC at horrible action economy, except even that CC often loses out in comparison to what Soldier and Operative offer in terms of CC.
Moreover, you get penalised for specialising in either instead of trying to keep up a "balance" which leaves you even worse at doing anything. It's almost like the book wants you to suffer if you dare pick the class.
Even if I try to make an optimal Solarian (Plasma Sheath/Corona), it simply loses out to an equal level Soldier in a direct comparison at what it is supposed to do.
More on Soldier:
The Combat Styles are pleasantly balanced against each other. There is no clear winner or loser option, every single one seems good. They offer a good build variety and I generally expect to see most Soldiers be different instead of gravitating towards a simple option.
It is, however, somewhat of a disappointment that they get absolutely nothing out of combat, not even a scaling athletics bonus. Pure pin-point combat focus while everyone else gets something out of combat is a bit off-putting.
Are you including the boost stones for the solarion weapon? If you don't they are bad but my napkin math made them pretty solid advanced melee with them. Its similar to the +5 enhancement boosts some PF classes get where you still need to buy the rest of the item.Solarian seems irredeemably bad upon a closer inspection.
Weapon Solarian deals less damage than normal weapons with their Solar Blade, so you generally always want to go Armour Solarian.
Photon is just straight up worse than either Soldier or Operative - it deals less damage than either and doesn't offer anything but damage.
Gravitation is... just terrible. It offers a little bit of CC at horrible action economy, except even that CC often loses out in comparison to what Soldier and Operative offer in terms of CC.
Moreover, you get penalised for specialising in either instead of trying to keep up a "balance" which leaves you even worse at doing anything. It's almost like the book wants you to suffer if you dare pick the class.
Even with boost stones, it barely keeps up with one-handed weapons and lags behind two-handed weapons, as far as I can tell with the calculations I just made.
For an iconic class feature, that's pathetic.
It only fall behind unwieldy two-handers, which cant full attack. It's a little better than anything else.Are you including the boost stones for the solarion weapon? If you don't they are bad but my napkin math made them pretty solid advanced melee with them. Its similar to the +5 enhancement boosts some PF classes get where you still need to buy the rest of the item.Solarian seems irredeemably bad upon a closer inspection.
Weapon Solarian deals less damage than normal weapons with their Solar Blade, so you generally always want to go Armour Solarian.
Photon is just straight up worse than either Soldier or Operative - it deals less damage than either and doesn't offer anything but damage.
Gravitation is... just terrible. It offers a little bit of CC at horrible action economy, except even that CC often loses out in comparison to what Soldier and Operative offer in terms of CC.
Moreover, you get penalised for specialising in either instead of trying to keep up a "balance" which leaves you even worse at doing anything. It's almost like the book wants you to suffer if you dare pick the class.Even with boost stones, it barely keeps up with one-handed weapons and lags behind two-handed weapons, as far as I can tell with the calculations I just made.
For an iconic class feature, that's pathetic.
I specifically haven't counted unwieldy weapons in the comparison.
A level 20 Solarian with a level 20 boost stone deals 18d6 a hit, average 63.A dimensional slice longsword, a level 20 one-handed weapon deals 14d8 a hit, average 63, exactly equal.
A dimensional slice curve blade, a level 20 two-handed weapon deals 12d10 a hit, average 66, slightly better.
At lower levels, it's pretty much the same.
Let's look at level 10. With the best boost, Solarian deals 4d6, average 14. Comet Hammer, a one-handed weapon, deals the same 4d6. Ultrathin Curveblade, a two-handed weapon, deals 3d10 for average 16.5.
Or let's look at level 5.
The Solarian is looking at 1d6+1d4 damage, average 6.
Carbon Steel Curve Blades, a two-handed weapon, deal 1d10, average 5.5.
Maybe level 1?
The Solarian has 1d6 damage (average 3.5), one-handed melee weapons are already looking at 1d8 (average 4.5).
The 0.5 damage difference is about as much benefit as you ever get.
Your iconic class feature not giving any real benefit is very sad.
It's a little better than anything else that's not powered and on par with powered.
I've only now noticed this edit.
Notice how many of the weapons I used in my comparisons are even analog.For example, the ultrathin curveblade is analog and beats out Solarian by 2.5 damage. It's not even remotely powered.
And there are levels where the solarion weapon is the best available like level 6. Where it has a 4 damage advantage. The granular nature of the solarion weapon means it crisscrosses the 2 hander curve. And not actually requiring 2 hands is still an actual advantage you are ignoring. Switching grips isn't a free action in SF so having a free hand is a legit thing.It's a little better than anything else that's not powered and on par with powered.I've only now noticed this edit.
Notice how many of the weapons I used in my comparisons are even analog.
For example, the ultrathin curveblade is analog and beats out Solarian by 2.5 damage. It's not even remotely powered.
One-handed weapons have no advantage in a system with a core 4-armed race and easy to purchase extra arms.
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On another note, Sniper Rifles seem like a trap option for Operatives.
In virtually all imaginable scenarios, Small Arms are outright better. There is extremely little in terms of reasons to use a Sniper Rifle on an Operative unless you're playing with houserules that buff them.
As is, Soldiers are ironically better at using Sniper Rifles despite Operatives being the thematically designated Sniper class.
Be this one race with OK stats or wait til level 11 aren't great solutions.One-handed weapons have no advantage in a system with a core 4-armed race and easy to purchase extra arms.And there are levels where the solarion weapon is the best available like level 6. Where it has a 4 damage advantage. The granular nature of the solarion weapon means it crisscrosses the 2 hander curve. And not actually requiring 2 hands is still an actual advantage you are ignoring. Switching grips isn't a free action in SF so having a free hand is a legit thing.It's a little better than anything else that's not powered and on par with powered.I've only now noticed this edit.
Notice how many of the weapons I used in my comparisons are even analog.
For example, the ultrathin curveblade is analog and beats out Solarian by 2.5 damage. It's not even remotely powered.
Keep in mind that Solarian doesn't even get anything out of a free hand due to being a melee-exclusive class.
What are you going to do with that free hand? Wield a dagger in it?
Be this one race with OK stats or wait til level 11 aren't great solutions.One-handed weapons have no advantage in a system with a core 4-armed race and easy to purchase extra arms.And there are levels where the solarion weapon is the best available like level 6. Where it has a 4 damage advantage. The granular nature of the solarion weapon means it crisscrosses the 2 hander curve. And not actually requiring 2 hands is still an actual advantage you are ignoring. Switching grips isn't a free action in SF so having a free hand is a legit thing.It's a little better than anything else that's not powered and on par with powered.I've only now noticed this edit.
Notice how many of the weapons I used in my comparisons are even analog.
For example, the ultrathin curveblade is analog and beats out Solarian by 2.5 damage. It's not even remotely powered.Keep in mind that Solarian doesn't even get anything out of a free hand due to being a melee-exclusive class.
What are you going to do with that free hand? Wield a dagger in it?Open a door? Manipulate a tool? Hold a grenade? Draw an item? Carry the MacGuffin? Anything that you might want to do with a hand while still being able to actually attack?
And not being able to be disarmed or sundered in anyway is cool too. A secondary class feature that gives you a cheaper, invulnerable, weapon that does roughly the same damage as anything else and requires only one-hand is not bad.
Solarians aren't even proficient in grenades. Soldier is the grenade specialist class, so you're arguing against yourself here.
The other are all fairly rarely useful.As for disarm and sunder - I really doubt they will be at all common, given that, besides them being unfun and thus generally avoided, combat maneuvers target KAC+8, which is quite the high target.
...Be this one race with OK stats or wait til level 11 aren't great solutions.One-handed weapons have no advantage in a system with a core 4-armed race and easy to purchase extra arms.And there are levels where the solarion weapon is the best available like level 6. Where it has a 4 damage advantage. The granular nature of the solarion weapon means it crisscrosses the 2 hander curve. And not actually requiring 2 hands is still an actual advantage you are ignoring. Switching grips isn't a free action in SF so having a free hand is a legit thing.It's a little better than anything else that's not powered and on par with powered.I've only now noticed this edit.
Notice how many of the weapons I used in my comparisons are even analog.
For example, the ultrathin curveblade is analog and beats out Solarian by 2.5 damage. It's not even remotely powered.Keep in mind that Solarian doesn't even get anything out of a free hand due to being a melee-exclusive class.
What are you going to do with that free hand? Wield a dagger in it?Open a door? Manipulate a tool? Hold a grenade? Draw an item? Carry the MacGuffin? Anything that you might want to do with a hand while still being able to actually attack?
And not being able to be disarmed or sundered in anyway is cool too. A secondary class feature that gives you a cheaper, invulnerable, weapon that does roughly the same damage as anything else and requires only one-hand is not bad.
Solarians aren't even proficient in grenades. Soldier is the grenade specialist class, so you're arguing against yourself here.
The other are all fairly rarely useful.
As for disarm and sunder - I really doubt they will be at all common, given that, besides them being unfun and thus generally avoided, combat maneuvers target KAC+8, which is quite
Let me sup up my argument:
It's their iconic class feature, but it doesn't make them at all better than other classes. Heck, Soldier Gear Boosts are outright better at the same thing (fancier weapons). Compare that to Pathfinder Soulknife, who has a very similar class feature (as the name of the class would suggest), which allows it to uniquely get a +13 equivalent weapon, putting it clearly above other classes, who are limited to +10 equivalent weapons.Moreover, none of their other class features is good, thus there's no justification whatsoever for their Solar Blade to be so pointless.
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Its not their iconic class feature. Stellar Revelations are their iconic class feature. Solar blade is the equivalent of a Paladins divine bond or the Magus using their arcane pool to enchant their weapon.
Except arcane pool was incredibly good, and this is lackluster at best.
Paladins at least get a lot of good class features to balance the very meh divine bond, wheras Solarians get.... what? Which class feature is very good? Which stellar revelation makes getting a whole bag of 'why bother' worth the trade-off?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Between the seemingly endless stream of totally underwhelming design decisions and the fact that the book sounds like it's had no proofreading and needs day 0 errata so will never leave the shelf, I'm hoping my preorder gets lost in the post so I can claim a refund.
Its not their iconic class feature. Stellar Revelations are their iconic class feature. Solar blade is the equivalent of a Paladins divine bond or the Magus using their arcane pool to enchant their weapon.Except arcane pool was incredibly good, and this is lackluster at best.
Paladins at least get a lot of good class features to balance the very meh divine bond, wheras Solarians get.... what? Which class feature is very good? Which stellar revelation makes getting a whole bag of 'why bother' worth the trade-off?
None really.
The only two decently good revelations I can find are Plasma Sheath and Corona, but both are pigeonholed into being fire-only, so you're screwed over as soon as you meet enemies resistant or immune to fire. Moreover, Soldiers are simply better at the same job than a Plasma Sheath/Corona Solarian.At level 9, you can also grab the Solar Acceleration Revelation to have a slightly better Haste whenever fully attuned to Photon (which requires AT LEAST 3 rounds of combat), but why not just have normal Haste in the first place? Casters will be present in most parties.
And Soldier also gets pounce usable from round 1 of combat instead of round 3 anyway, which is the main benefit of Solar Acceleration, meaning it's still worse than Soldier equivalents.
Meanwhile, a friend of mine found this trick:
Are you playing an android, yet worrying about your dumped Charisma 8 and your -2 penalty to Sense Motive checks? Fret not, for a wrist-mounted computer can handle your social needs!For (250 * 1.3 + 10) = 335 credits, you can purchase a tier 2 computer with negligible bulk, an artificial personality, and an alarm for security. This computer can go on your wrist, and it has an artificial personality with Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Intimidate +4, and Sense Motive +4, so you can delegate most of your social challenges to it.
Considering that starting wealth is 1,000 credits, this seems like a fair deal for skills' sake.
Why talk and read people yourself when you can have your wrist-mounted, holographic vocaloid do the talking and people-reading for you? Of course it will lag behind someone placing ranks in class-skilled social skills, but sometimes, you cannot afford that.
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Between the seemingly endless stream of totally underwhelming design decisions and the fact that the book sounds like it's had no proofreading and needs day 0 errata so will never leave the shelf, I'm hoping my preorder gets lost in the post so I can claim a refund.
By endless stream you mean this thread or another thread as well? : D I mean, if you just mean this thread, then you are basically being like "wait, so the hype isn't true and it isn't second coming of RPG Messiah?", if you mean other threads as well, I want links too because I'm bored of waiting my subscriptions to ship
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Between the seemingly endless stream of totally underwhelming design decisions and the fact that the book sounds like it's had no proofreading and needs day 0 errata so will never leave the shelf, I'm hoping my preorder gets lost in the post so I can claim a refund.By endless stream you mean this thread or another thread as well? : D I mean, if you just mean this thread, then you are basically being like "wait, so the hype isn't true and it isn't second coming of RPG Messiah?", if you mean other threads as well, I want links too because I'm bored of waiting my subscriptions to ship
for real what CorvusMask said I'm taking Mashallah opinion as a grain of salt. Heck probably less since I'm noticing the glass half empty mind set going into it. Plus i'm not the kind of player that only plays the most optimized thing I can find.
I have seen people say good things about it too. I'm still at wait and see.
I think the best two early picks for Solarian is actually Plasma Sheath and Stellar Rush, so round 1 you can Plasma up your weapon, then Stellar Rush into combat with a charge. Optionally you'd like Corona as a choice if they angle isn't there for a charge, though you start to run into imbalance issues.
The weapon looks anaemic possibly even a trap which is unfortunate, armour seems a much better choice, having fire or cold resistance on tap seems good.
I'm a little disappointed as I think the flavour for the Solarian is excellent, however the class can be salvaged with some better revelations in the future.
Vehicles are... weird.
Smaller vehicles are, at higher levels, ironically more dangerous than bigger ones.
A colossal level 20 vehicle hitting you is 28d10 damage, DC 19 Reflex negate.
A diminutive level 20 vehicle hitting you is 21d10 damage, DC 33 Reflex negate.
They move at the same speed, to keep in mind.
It deals only slightly less damage, but the DC to avoid it is much higher.
Between the seemingly endless stream of totally underwhelming design decisions and the fact that the book sounds like it's had no proofreading and needs day 0 errata so will never leave the shelf, I'm hoping my preorder gets lost in the post so I can claim a refund.By endless stream you mean this thread or another thread as well? : D I mean, if you just mean this thread, then you are basically being like "wait, so the hype isn't true and it isn't second coming of RPG Messiah?", if you mean other threads as well, I want links too because I'm bored of waiting my subscriptions to shipfor real what CorvusMask said I'm taking Mashallah opinion as a grain of salt. Heck probably less since I'm noticing the glass half empty mind set going into it. Plus i'm not the kind of player that only plays the most optimized thing I can find.
I have seen people say good things about it too. I'm still at wait and see.
I think I gave a fairly balanced overview in this thread, though?
I praised the portions that I liked, even professed love to two of the classes and admitted I was most pleasantly surprised by a third one, but I also criticised the parts that I disliked.
Ysoki cheek pouches seem to be of comically disproportionate size. They are big enough to hold a tactical doshko, the functional equivalent of a greataxe, in them now that I noticed a tactical doshko is 1 bulk.
One of the things that caught my eye, and will be sure to trip me up is that charge no longer gives a bonus to hit now its -2 attack and ac.
Are you still required to move in a straight line? Do you still get to move twice your speed?
I always thought charging was a fun tactical threat to put against players, like a charging minotaur. It makes that five foot side step important. Don't let the minotaur have a clear path to you or you are in trouble! It makes that particular combat more tactical, unique, and memorable. So yeah I'm a bit taken back by the negative to hit.
However, if there are charging feats it would present the opportunity for us "chargers" to invest feats and become something more unique! Please tell me there are charging feats...
*Fingers crossed*
Mechanic drones seem to have insanely low AC - they can't wear armour and their AC doesn't really scale otherwise.
At high levels they will be something like 20 points behind everyone else. It's silly.
