Character just died again in Reign of Winter, having a spot of some really bad rolls and failed saves.
Party is currently at level 8, and I wondering at this point (and with this campaign if anyone has any insight) how well can tripping work? I was thinking of using Lore Warden with a Fauchard (DM has ruled trip weapons give a +2 to the attempt instead of being able to drop the weapon instead of being knocked prone).
The barbarian in the group has taken Outflank due to the previous character, so overall I can get a large bonus to CMB. (I think flanking helps with CMB, I could be wrong). The main problem comes in the CR we are seeing and the possibility of things just not being trip-able due to super high CMD and lots of spell casters that may just be flying.
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It's not great.
Once you reach around level 10 or so the chances of encountering a flying enemy who is simply immune to your main action is really annoying.
Personally I would never specialize in most combat maneuvers except grapple.
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(I think flanking helps with CMB, I could be wrong)
You're right, it's still an attack.
Flanking is tricky with a reach weapon, you have to go far enough around to be able to flank, and you have to be in the exact right spot or neither of you get the flank bonus.
If you want to specialize in a Combat Maneuver, do Dirty Trick. You can apply blind/deafened/sickened which can all be pretty bad (especially blind). Grapple will always be superior, but it gets boring pretty quick.
It's not great.
Once you reach around level 10 or so the chances of encountering a flying enemy who is simply immune to your main action is really annoying.
Personally I would never specialize in most combat maneuvers except grapple.
Dirty trick can still do well- mostly if you have a way to do it twice in a round- dirty trick master can make enemies nauseated and rob them of their standard action (which is what they use to cure dirty tricks due to your feats).
This less mostly for shutting down wizards though. They tend to have a lot of spells, but lower on CMD- same justification as grapple really. Obviously you should not bank of using this on big, beefy enemies, since they have much better CMD.
Still, dirty trick at least would apply to them- if you have blind, deaf, etc. as options, you will likely find SOMETHING that would work on that particular opponent. You don't see the instant shut down seen with flying creatures or snake-ish things.
You're right, I should have mentioned Dirty Trick along with Grapple.
Those are the only combat maneuvers really worth specializing in.
If you want to trip later in game, do it as a Wizard, Magus or Sorceror and get the spell Telekinetic Maneuver (through spells, items, or scrolls).
Dispel their Fly and Freedom of Movement spells, and then beat them up with Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc. while your ally does all the dmg to them. Telekinetic Maneuver is a concentration spell that occurs every round as long as you maintain, and you can make new/different Maneuver attempts each round. Your CMB roll is 1d20 + CL + Primary Modifier, so it scales really well.
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Fe random thoughts on the topic.
Optimized builds for grappling have bonuses in the high 20s level 10 and can do 2 or three manuevers a turn. Toppling spell can be OK some manuever spells are nice but they have lower bonuses and are most successful at targeting casters.
Trip builds can have higher numbers but their are way more immunities and defenses.
I like battle oracles as cmb characters. Mid levels because they can get pretty good with little investment and have a million other things they can do. Include make people reroll nat 20s.
Always have another thing to do. I like grapple build because they give a good non lethal way to deal with combat. Trip and dirty trip often make it easier to kill but are not actually providing a different rp option.
The way I trip mid levels is a wand of blade lash. I'm outside of the reach of anything I can trip and the +10 is enough to make the maneuver reliable.
One of these days I'd love to see an Aerial Tactics Toolbox with relevant maneuver rules/feats for use by and against flying foes. There's just no reason maneuvers should have to suffer so much at higher levels when entire character concepts can revolve around them.
There is a feat for tripping flying characters with a ranged weapon, but it's really terrible.
I'd rather say that trip is still pretty viable at these levels.
Flying enemies can definitely break your day, but generally it is still great maneuver. Just pick PA to have a fall-back plan.
Not really.
There are snake-like enemies that are straight up immune. Flying enemies are immune. You can also only trip enemies who are one size category larger than you.
Once you get to high levels the number of things that are flying or 2 size categories larger than you becomes significant.
I'd rather say that trip is still pretty viable at these levels.
Flying enemies can definitely break your day, but generally it is still great maneuver. Just pick PA to have a fall-back plan.Not really.
There are snake-like enemies that are straight up immune. Flying enemies are immune. You can also only trip enemies who are one size category larger than you.
Once you get to high levels the number of things that are flying or 2 size categories larger than you becomes significant.
Opponents of size Gargantuan and Colossal are far and few between in most AP's, even towards the end.
Character's can trivially increase their own size to Large as needed, even at low level.
For those fights where Trip is not a good option, power attacking with a two-handed weapon with a 15-20 crit range is a really good fallback plan.
Several of the things that add to the CMB also add to DPR. Weapon focus, better weapon, flanking, magic buffs and etc. It's not like if you can't trip a creature you are screw.
Several of the things that add to the CMB also add to DPR. Weapon focus, better weapon, flanking, magic buffs and etc. It's not like if you can't trip a creature you are screw.
One would assume any decent trip build is still going to be built to take advantage of all the AoO's generated on a successful trip by maximizing DPR.
Several of the things that add to the CMB also add to DPR. Weapon focus, better weapon, flanking, magic buffs and etc. It's not like if you can't trip a creature you are screw.One would assume any decent trip build is still going to be built to take advantage of all the AoO's generated on a successful trip by maximizing DPR.
Which doesn't take much feats and doesn't take much away from standard DPR.
I'll agree that power attacking with a two-handed weapon is never a bad plan. In fact, it's the baseline plan for any melee character.
However, your assumption of increasing size at low level is not as trivial or easy as it sounds. Yes it can be done, but most martial classes would need to access it through UMD, a friend, or a magical item. That's not as simple or reliable in my opinion as you seem to think it is.
And though gargantuan and colossal creatures are not super common, huge creatures become pretty common place.
Indeed. Especially since your character probably doesn't walk around with potion in hand, you have to retrieve it and then drink it.
I'd rather say that trip is still pretty viable at these levels.
Flying enemies can definitely break your day, but generally it is still great maneuver. Just pick PA to have a fall-back plan.Not really.
There are snake-like enemies that are straight up immune. Flying enemies are immune. You can also only trip enemies who are one size category larger than you.
Once you get to high levels the number of things that are flying or 2 size categories larger than you becomes significant.
The size issue at higher levels can now be ameliorated with a couple of Armor Mastery feats.
The Poised Bearing feat will let you count as one size larger than your actual size for determining the size of creatures against whom you can bull rush, drag, overrun, and trip.
Imposing Bearing increases that to two sizes. Both feats are from the Armor Master's Handbook.
So a medium character using Enlarge Person and Imposing Bearing would count as gargantuan and could attempt trip even against colossal creatures.
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I would day that a dedicated trip build is a bad idea, but a well-rounded warrior that can opportunistically trip is a good idea.
There are a couple of problems with dedicated trip builds:
- Sometimes it just doesn't work. If the campaign involves lots of categorically untrippable things you're screwed.
- If you hyperspecialize you can work your CMB up to the point where you can trip even critters who are normally too big and have too much CMD. And if you do you'll auto-trip regular people.
But it takes a lot of resources to become this good at tripping, and you risk losing out on other capabilities, like contributing to non-combat stuff or being good at anything else than tripping in combat. You're becoming a one-trick pony and eventually it'll start to bore you.
- An uber-tripper will totally frustrate the GM. Many enemies can't recover well from being tripped. It'll ruin their action economy and mobility. So the GM who sees a lot of encounters becoming pointless has choices: accept that a lot of encounters are pointless (not fun), remove encounters that would be pointless (less diverse) or go into an arms race (not fun).
If you've GMed for a party with too much "control" style characters you'll know what I mean. It can really take the fun out of the game.
Now instead consider the "just a tool in the toolbox" character. This is a warrior who's maybe taken a couple of Improved Maneuver feats, or can work his way into them. If he ends up close to the wizard he goes for the grab, but if there's a big troll in between he just goes for the extreme violence. If an enemy is trying to run past him to get to the PC wizard he trips the enemy rather than doing damage, because stopping the monster's movement is a priority.
I'll agree that power attacking with a two-handed weapon is never a bad plan. In fact, it's the baseline plan for any melee character.
However, your assumption of increasing size at low level is not as trivial or easy as it sounds. Yes it can be done, but most martial classes would need to access it through UMD, a friend, or a magical item. That's not as simple or reliable in my opinion as you seem to think it is.
And though gargantuan and colossal creatures are not super common, huge creatures become pretty common place.
Potions of Enlarge Person are trivial by second level if used only for important fights.
And though gargantuan and colossal creatures are not super common, huge creatures become pretty common place.
There's a trait (snowstride) that appears to solve that.
The size issue at higher levels can now be ameliorated with a couple of Armor Mastery feats.
The Poised Bearing feat will let you count as one size larger than your actual size for determining the size of creatures against whom you can bull rush, drag, overrun, and trip.
Imposing Bearing increases that to two sizes. Both feats are from the Armor Master's Handbook.
So a medium character using Enlarge Person and Imposing Bearing would count as gargantuan and could attempt trip even against colossal creatures.
I mean, I guess if you want to specialize super hard into playing a fighter archetype that doesn't give up armor training or one of the few archetypes of other classes that gets it (Yojimbo Samurai I think) then I guess you're right.
Maybe I should restate my general position, I'm not saying you can't build to make trip work. I'm saying that it's not something you can just do casually and have it work well. You have to build around it completely and be aware of some niche options to stay relevant.
Depends on the campaign. In RotR trip is completely useless at the higher levels, because so many foes are huge or have an otherwise insane CMD.
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There is a feat for tripping flying characters with a ranged weapon, but it's really terrible.
It's situational, but I wouldn't call it terrible. It's a way for a character to take a full round action to ground a flyer and damage it. The action economy sucks on it, but if the rest
Of the team is melee without reliable flight, it's not that bad, especially if you're a fighter or ranger and have the bonus feats.
Tripping can be really good in a weird way with a dueling seven branched sword on a monk.
Giving double yiure enchantment bouns as a luck bouns to trip, plus your enchantment bouns, the seven branched sword allows you to use a trip maneuver to make an opponent flat footed.
This, combined with flurry of blows and later in the game, medusa's wrath, means you get more attacks against a foe with lower ac.
But those feats are only available to Fighters who did NOT trade out Armor Training, or for medium-heavy armor users that can spare space for the Armor Focus feat tax.
Lightly-armored classes are right out (including Lore Warden!), as are ones that DON'T have an extra 2 feats to spare on top of the main trip ones.
I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it's quite expensive.
It is expensive, but for those who want to make a dedicated trip build it is an option that helps overcome one major obstacle. I'm not a fan of investing heavily into trip, but I have to admit that being able to trip the Tarrasque sounds like fun.
I mean, I guess if you want to specialize super hard into playing a fighter archetype that doesn't give up armor training or one of the few archetypes of other classes that gets it (Yojimbo Samurai I think) then I guess you're right.
Maybe I should restate my general position, I'm not saying you can't build to make trip work. I'm saying that it's not something you can just do casually and have it work well. You have to build around it completely and be aware of some niche options to stay relevant.
I'm not disagreeing with your overall position. I just thought I'd mention this option since it often gets overlooked.
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Absolutely.
Never.
Maybe.
I depends on how you do it and how much you specialize in it and what your plans are for when it doesn't work.
This avatar is fast becoming the best trip/disarm build I have ever seen, yet I still have plenty to do when neither of those work.
Kensai Magus with focus on the whip. Arcane pool, the improved feats, along with both dueling weapon enhancements make him able to trip/disarm most opponents within 15' reach using a one handed weapon. Combat reflexes and 10' threatened area lets him protect the squishies (including himself) most of the time. Wand mastery and wand of true strike (plus po of enlarge person if necessary) give him a truly imposing trip/disarm attack (+55) which very nearly never fails against any BBEG they can effect.
When there is an opponent that can't be tripped or disarmed, he still has many options. Actual weapon damage sucks. But he is a strength build, arcane pool to add shock and flame properties, and a magus can use a melee weapon to deliver a corrosive touch.
This gives me d3+5+d6(flame)+d6(elec)+5d4(acid)= approx 26 damage. Not a raging barbarian, but not too shabby either.
Then there is all my other spell options.
However, I have to say I think this might be just a little too much specialization in trip/disarm for some campaigns. I am unfamiliar with your campaign, I have heard there are lots of moderately sized humanoid opponents.
At the other end of the tripper spectrum, I have seen an arcanist who almost always has a toppling magic missile prepared. He often opens up most fights with that spell. (Yes, he is saving up for a rod of quicken.) Then he can take the best of 5 CMB rolls on a single BBEG or try to trip up to 5 mooks in the initial salvo. His CMB bonus isn't amazing, but 5 rolls each time give him decent results. He is a full caster and the only build investment is the single toppling metamagic feat.