Random questions going into 1st session


Advice

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Grand Lodge

Hey guys

About to have my first session where I'll be GMing for the first time, and couple of things are not clear in the rulebook for me, I thought I could find some help here. I might be adding more questions to this thread as I go along. So here goes:

- Walk speed vs. Hustle speed in Tactical Movement: there is almost a throwaway line in the rulebook that says "characters don't usually walk during combat. They hustle". However, all through the book the speed referred to is the base speed for all characters, meanaing, 30 feet for most cases and not 60 feet (hustle speed). Also, when I played Pathfinder Society back in the day I remember we used to move up to 30 or maybe 40 feet on the map. I don't remember anybody moving 60. So I'm confused. What speed do you use for combat/tactical situations?

Generally speaking I find the hustling rule somewhat cumbersome. I have an inkling to just ignore it and use Walk and Run instead. So much simpler.

- Climbing gear: There is a climbing gear package that costs 80 GP. I have a PC that took Climb as class skill. Nowhere in the description of the skill does it say you have to have this 80 gp gear to perform it. Can you advise if there is any reason whatsoever to buy this?

- Age: do you incorporate aging in your games, and if so, how do you keep track of the aging of the character. How do you decide how much time the character ages between sessions, and did anyone here actually used the penalty/bonus mechanics for aging characters.

Thank you!

Liberty's Edge

1. 30 - "hustle speed" doesn't mean the character's speed is changing, it's effectively that they double move every round for minutes/hours. Only worry about hustle if it's out of combat and they want to move faster than walking but too far to run.

2. Climbing gear adds a +2 to climb checks. Also while not super explicit, most people interpret including pitons to mean that you can secure rope to a wall, not only making the DC easier but potentially catching you if you fall. Big reasons to buy.

3. Aging is rarely used because it can make for weird starting characters, and most campaigns don't take long enough in game for it to come up. I've used it a few times - time between adventures varies a lot. Sometimes it can be weeks or months (kingmaker), years in a home game, or just days.

Grand Lodge

The Climbing kit also has Pitons and other climbing equipment that makes it possible to scale normally a surface that couldn't be climbed normally- especially without Spider Climb or another method to gain a Climb speed.

Aging has odd rules when you get to really old ages, and even a few young ages. only Elve, gnomes, and dwarves have access to the "Breadth of Knowledge" feat


Advice -
Don't get bogged down in the rules. I use a fast and loose rule that if I'm not sure (or get called on something I might be ruling wrong) I ask the table for their opinions. Give them 5 minutes to convince me one way or the other, sometimes this just comes down to the roll of a die.
Then after the session dig through the rules and see what they are.

There's a lot of rules that are 'questionable' in their intent. Ask the players before you start running if their characters have any 'strange' game mechanics you need to know about before playing. In PFS I've seen about 20% of the time, they're using these game mechanics wrong or are trying to 'cheese' the interpretation of one sentence while the rest of the rules say no.

So...have seen way too many games where someone just wants to argue about the rules which takes the fun out of the game for everyone else. Remember, you're the one in charge, make a fast ruling while playing but willing to admit a mistake after the effect.

I've asked the table plenty of times that I'm going to rule something this way so the table can continue to play but if someone wants to take the time to look the rule up, I'll change my mind then.

Grand Lodge

Thank you guys, for all the tips and info. Praise the internet! Like I said, I might post other question if I feel the need... but I do think the last rule is the best one, "don't get bogged down with rules"... :-)

Grand Lodge

Some more clarifications needed:

I have an encounter where a Giant Spider is shooting a web at the PC's, and the Web ability is not clear to me in the rules.

Rules says:

"An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst the web with a Strength check. Both are standard actions with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier."

Three questions:

- if it's a Strength check, why a Con modifier?
- is 1/2 of creature's HD with 1st level character equals zero? (rules say to always round down unless specifically noted).
- the description of the Special Attack of the spider in the bestiary says: "Special Attack web (+5 ranged, DC 12, hp 2)"

So which DC does the web have? 12, or the formula above? And why does it have HP if you can just burst it with a DC check?

I guess these were four questions...

Thanks!


The DC is half the spiders HD plus it's con modifier not the Players HD and con. The PC has to make either a Strength check it Escape artist check to escape however if they keep failing another player can damage the web to free them.


Con modifier and hd of the creature using the ability. Similar to spells many monster abilities have their saving throw based on a particular ability score. The 1/2 hd scaling is to make monsters easy to scale up and down and gives it a dc similiar to a spell cast by a caster of their level

EX: say the spider has 4 hd and a con score of 16
10 + 1/2 Hd + con mod = 10 + 2 + 3 = 15

Halves round down unless specified otherwise. You are correct that it applies here

The bestiary giant spider is giving the dc of that particular giant spider calculated using that formula. Increasing its hd or con would increase the dc

10 + 1/2 *3 + con mod(1) = 12

Web has hp because it can be attacked. This can be helpful for 2 reasons
1. Some characters have low str and/or escape artist
2. It allows you to free allies

Grand Lodge

You are both amazing for replying so fast. Thanks. It's all much clearer now.

Rulebook states that "creature" is used to describe basically every character and NPC in the game, hence my confusion regarding STR vs. CON. Even though I did smell something was off.

Grand Lodge

Hello again good people of Golarion. Some more questions:

We had a character creation session today and did not have time to actually play. It took several hours. Some things I am not sure of:

1) One of the players decided to pick Abyssal as a sorcerer bloodline. I read somewhere in the Core Book that sorcerers's bloodlines are considered Arcane if not mentioned specifically (or something to that effect). However, the Core Book still lists them and in quite detail. So three questions:

- Should I let players play only Arcane bloodline?
- If not, any tips on how a character with Abyssal bloodline should generally be role-played (aligment of PC is NG). Because it seems to me it might be played as a regular sorcerer, only with
claws. I may be wrong, of course. but is there specific knowledge/ background the player should be made aware of to succesfully role-play this?
- A general question regarding bloodlines: each type lists many bonus feats. I assume you only pick one of those?

2) How does multi-classing actually work? Specificially, we have a half-elf in the group. It says in the race description that he can basically begin as multiclass from 1st level ("multi-talented"). He chose sorcerer/fighter. Does that mean everything gets clumped together? Skills, feats, hit points? That seems pretty friggin' powerful to me. There is no clear indication in the rules on how to handle this.

Thank you.

Silver Crusade

1. If the player doesn't pick a bloodline, the character gets the Arcane bloodline by default. There's no reason not to let the character take the Abyssal bloodline. As far as role-playing, the character is trying to overcome the taint in his/her bloodline, and be a good person.

2. The character has only one class at 1st lvl. When he/she reaches 2nd lvl, that's when multiclassing is possible:

PRD wrote:

Instead of gaining the abilities granted by the next level in your character's current class, he can instead gain the 1st-level abilities of a new class, adding all of those abilities to his existing ones. This is known as "multiclassing."

For example, let's say a 5th-level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level. Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th-level fighter and a 1st-level wizard, but would still be considered a 6th-level character. (His class levels would be 5th and 1st, but his total character level is 6th.) He keeps all of his bonus feats gained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st-level spells and picks an arcane school. He adds all of the hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throw bonuses from a 1st-level wizard on top of those gained from being a 5th-level fighter.

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.[/PRD]


1:A sorcerer can pick any of the listed bloodlines to be. As for RP there is really no guideline for it a sorcerer's bloodline is the source of his magic but it could be diluted by many many generations. If the player in question wants to focus on it as part of his RP maybe they occasionally have impulses or desires that run counter to thier alignment or possible find the implications of thier power coming from some evil ancestor to be somewhat shameful.

2: the racial ability in question allows them to choose 2 favored classes at character creation at first level instead of one. Taking a level in your favored class let's you take either one extra skill point or point of HP( assuming you are only using the core books and no advanced race stuff). Multiclassing is under the character advancement section of the core rulebook book or just read the poster above me.

Grand Lodge

Thank you. It seems like I mixed between "favored class" and "multi-class".

So for example, we have a half-elf sorcerer that took Fighter as his second favored class. So on 2nd level, he is basically assured this +1/+1, UNLESS he chooses to multi-class in a character that is not a fighter.

Am I getting this right?

So:

- Does the +1 to hp/+1 skill comes on top of the usual skill/hp progression?

- Does every character start with this favored class bonus even at 1st level? I gave the half-elf 6 points because that's his maximum in 1st level, but does that means he can start with 7?

Other realted question:

- Does Con modifer influence hp as penalty as well? So if the half elf starts with 6 hp but has -1 to Con he's gonna start with 5 hp? That seems so harsh...

- this is for you GM's out there: when you let a player roll for additional hit points, and they roll a 1... do you allow a re-roll? I'm thinking of giving them one re-roll, but then they have to keep the second roll. So if you rolled two 1's, tough luck. It's just a real bummer for the player to roll a 1 just like that. No?

But I guess even if they rolled a 1 at least they have the favored class bonus to sweeten the deal a bit...


You are correct about the favored class progression.

The +1 hp/skill point does come on top of the hp gained from leveling up and Con modifier. The skill point is in addition to the points gained by leveling up and Intelligence modifier (and, if human, the bonus point for their racial ability too). And yes, you can get it at first level.

Yes, the Con modifier is just that: a modifier. It can be a bonus or penalty. So if you have an 8 Con, which has a -1 modifier, you can start with maximum hp for your class (say, 6 for a sorcerer), then lose one for that -1 penalty you have from a low Con, to end up at 5. Then for more fun, add on the favored class bonus and choose hp, to end up at 6 again.

Regarding hp rolls: various GMs do things differently. Some use the average of the die after first level. Some allow a reroll. Some just use max hp. Some use a modified die roll equal to half the base die plus a random roll (e.g. if you would normally roll a d6, instead you roll 1d3, add 3, then add everything else).


Lathiira wrote:
Some use the average of the die after first level.

Note that usually this means the rounded-up average. So d6 = 4HP per level after the first (plus con modifers, etc), d8 = 5HP, d10 = 6HP, d12 = 7HP.

Grand Lodge

I'm used to old school style where you just roll everything. But it is harsh to roll a 1.

I also noticed that in the monsters description it says the monster's hit dice but then it gives you the exact hp outright. It used to be these were also exclusively rolled by the DM/GM when preparing an adventure.


You're free to roll them, if you like spending your spare time rolling dice, in order to make the difficulty balance more random. But average hit dice for enemies is the standard Pathfinder method.


Most of pathfinder is 'balanced' around a 4 character, 15 point character creation buy. The 'static' numbers shown is to reflect this.

So if you have more players or 'tougher' characters (or less) you can play with these 'numbers'.

Liberty's Edge

Lynos wrote:

I'm used to old school style where you just roll everything. But it is harsh to roll a 1.

I also noticed that in the monsters description it says the monster's hit dice but then it gives you the exact hp outright. It used to be these were also exclusively rolled by the DM/GM when preparing an adventure.

If you allow re-roll 1's, you end up with the same expected value as half round up that PFS and many home games use.

Also the rolling 1's thing is why you start with max at first level, most choose favored Hp instead of skill point, and also why people don't often play with 8 con!

Grand Lodge

Yes, I think I'll just avoid rolls for additional hp's and go with an average or something else that is not so random. If the monsetrs in pathfinder don't need to roll for hp, I don't see why the PC's need to. It puts them at a disadvantage.

blashimov wrote:
Also the rolling 1's thing is why you start with max at first level, most choose favored Hp instead of skill point, and also why people don't often play with 8 con!

We used the standard method where they rolled for each ability and then I let them switch one ability with another. I don't like to use "buy pools" because it tends to create analysis paralysis. Too many options. And yes, one of the players decided to stay with Con 8... what can I say. A frail sorcerer.


Lynos wrote:
If the monsters in pathfinder don't need to roll for hp, I don't see why the PC's need to. It puts them at a disadvantage.

Or sometimes, at an advantage. The last time I played with rolled HPs, the group contained a Barbarian who kept rolling 11s and 12s on level up, and a Fighter who kept rolling 2s. Awkward.

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Lynos wrote:
If the monsters in pathfinder don't need to roll for hp, I don't see why the PC's need to. It puts them at a disadvantage.
Or sometimes, at an advantage. The last time I played with rolled HPs, the group contained a Barbarian who kept rolling 11s and 12s on level up, and a Fighter who kept rolling 2s. Awkward.

In playing two games at the same time, I too had a dragon disciple rolling 11-12, and a wizard rolling 1's and 2's. If I was a superstitious person...

Grand Lodge

Thanks, guys.

I keep hitting obstacles here, so some more questions:

- The "Bleed" spell. It says it can prevent a dying creature (below 0 hp) to regain hit point. But... monsters just die when they reach zero, do they not? So who is this spell effective against? NPC's? Other PC's? How often can it be used if that is the case?

- It appears half-elves are proficient with composite longbows. But a composite longbow is a martial weapon. What to do with a half-elf sorcerer when a sorcerer can only use simple weapaon? I cannot solve this contradiction...

- How do you handle DC checks as GM's? Do you state outright to the players the number that they roll against, or do you keep it secret? On the one hand, for a player, being aware of all the numbers and the formulas behind the screen might break immersion. But on the other hand, mechanics-wise, it can make their experience more involving if they actually know what they're rolling against...

Thanks.


Lynos wrote:

monsters just die when they reach zero, do they not?

Nope, unless they're a type of monster that does (eg undead) or you houserule it so that they do.

Lynos wrote:
It appears half-elves are proficient with composite longbows.

It does? I don't see that.

Lynos wrote:
But a composite longbow is a martial weapon. What to do with a half-elf sorcerer when a sorcerer can only use simple weapon?

There's no rule that sorcerers can only use simple weapons. Being a sorcerer gives you proficiency in simple weapons. If a sorcerer gains some other proficiency due to race or multiclassing, they can use those other weapons too.

Lynos wrote:
How do you handle DC checks as GM's? Do you state outright to the players the number that they roll against, or do you keep it secret?

Normally it is secret.

Liberty's Edge

Lynos wrote:

Thanks, guys.

I keep hitting obstacles here, so some more questions:

- The "Bleed" spell. It says it can prevent a dying creature (below 0 hp) to regain hit point. But... monsters just die when they reach zero, do they not? So who is this spell effective against? NPC's? Other PC's? How often can it be used if that is the case?

- It appears half-elves are proficient with composite longbows. But a composite longbow is a martial weapon. What to do with a half-elf sorcerer when a sorcerer can only use simple weapaon? I cannot solve this contradiction...

- How do you handle DC checks as GM's? Do you state outright to the players the number that they roll against, or do you keep it secret? On the one hand, for a player, being aware of all the numbers and the formulas behind the screen might break immersion. But on the other hand, mechanics-wise, it can make their experience more involving if they actually know what they're rolling against...

Thanks.

Specifically, creatures die at negative con, they are staggered at 0 and unconscious at negative (again unless they are undead or a construct).

Bleed is a weird spell that just makes people who are already dying die more, it's not actually better (and is usually worse) than just sticking them with something pointy to make sure they're dead. It's 99% pointless.

If half elves are proficient with bows, like elves, that includes composite bows. Only a few classes are truly limited in what weapons they can use effectively, most classes just give different proficiencies as a baseline. Anyone can take martial or exotic weapon proficiency, for example.

For DCs, sometimes I say what the DC is so they can estimate how hard it is for the character to do, especially if they are new to the system. For example, to an experienced player, if I say "it's as hard as a pull up in your gear," they know that means 15 and their character with a +5 to climb can do that pretty easily. For a new player, I'd make sure to add on that it is about DC 15, so they know whether they want to go for it with their +2 or +7 or whatever it is.

For will saves and things, unless it's a large party, I never give the DC, just saying who passes and fails.


Yes monsters do not die at 0hp, many GMs run it that way when there aren't healers on the opposing side that might get them back into the fight, either for simple convinience or wanting to run more heroic campaign where PCs are not forced to execute bleeding out opposition.

Half-elves are not proficient with those, they do have alternate racial feature that can allow them to be. Elves however are proficient, so maybe that is where the mix up happened?

And yes the assumption is secret, however...Well first you have DCs that the players simply know, like say activating a wand with use magic skill. Then there is the practice of some GMs(I would even say most) that state the DC when knowing it doesn't really matter, simply to speed up play. Granted when I personally teach new people to game, I tend to reveal lot more info than normally just so people can grasp the underlying math of the game better.(Such teaching sessions however are not normal campaigns, usually a single adventure and done.)Even under normal circumstances, it is usually fair to give an estimate how difficult something is, IF the character would know so based on their expertise. For example, let's say we have a character that has 10 ranks(and +15 skill modifier total) in survival. They are trying to track a rat familiar of enemy wizard and they are in a city with paved streets and it is night time with some moonlight. So the DC of that would be 25. I would tell them it is rather routine task for someone of your skill assuming if you take your time, moving fast would be hardpressed to not loose the track. I reveal this because the character is a really good tracker so they could judge by the circumstances somewhat accurate what their chances are.


I have seen a number of battles where the cleric does a channeled heal and a monster thought dead ends up getting healed and 'waking' up.


Talking about Death and becoming Dead -

As a GM if your attacking with a creature with multiple attacks. It's usually wise to know the order of your attacks and if a attack does drop a player.

Usually, after the attack drops a player, it's wise to change targets and attack someone else. This helps prevent killing players.

Grand Lodge

Wow, appreciate all the answers.

- I was indeed looking at the Elf entry instead of the Half-Elf. My apologies. So there's no issue here. However, it still begs the question in principal: what happens when racial weapon proficencies contradict class weapon proficiencies... what trumps what? or do you just combine them and it should work?
I forgot that you get -4 penalty if you're not proficient with the weapon (I just found the almost-throwaway line of text explaining that, buried in the equipment chapter). I thought mistakingly that if you're not proficient then you can't use it at all.

- As for 0 hp on monsters... seriously? So in every battle, there's always the point where the monster just loses conciousness and you need to finish it off? So the Giant Spider, the Goblin, the wolf, they all just faint when under zero? And the PC's need to figure that out, right? Because otherwise the monster just looks dead.

In the few PF games I played in the past, monsters would just die. I don't ever recall we had a monster drop to the floor and then we had to finish it off. It looks so cumbersome to me. How in the heck to you employ that rule elegantly and keep things moving?

Maybe it just looks ridiculous to me in theory but in practice it works? Maybe many times a monster will get dealt so much damage it will just die anyway? Do you award XP for beaten-but-not-dead enemies?

All the rules about dying in the core book refer to PC's. It's all about "you" and "your character".

Is all this from the bestiary?

- As for DC and secrecy. Yes, I didn't mean saving throws, of course (I should have been clearer). I referred mostly to skill checks. If a ranger tries to pacify a wild dog, for example, should I tell the player "if you rolled a 20 and above you succeeded" or should I just shut up. I liked the suggestion that you can combine this with the role playing/story telling. So maybe in such a case, if I think they have a good chance, I can say, "it might work, the dog doesn't seem evil, just hungry".


1) Yes the profiencies 'stack' for lack of better term. So to use the mentioned elves as an example, all elves are proficient in the weapons mentioned in their description regardless of class(not counting alternate racial traits), and with any weapons that their class gives them profiency in. Armor works the same way, however some classes like say a bard can cast spells(without arcane spell failure chance that is) in light armor only even if they have profiences in medium or heavy armor, shields work like armor in this regard.

2) Yes, it is fairly often that some overkill happens and they are dead anyway, or if not they will bleed out eventually. Some GMs to speed up things assume that enemies always fail their stabilization rolls, or only roll them for important NPCs like a boss.

3) Actually this will save you lot of headache in the future. DnD 3rd edition and as such PF was designed on the principle that all monsters use the excat same rules as PCs do.(there are few exceptions such as diplomancy) This was done to create a consistent rules and world. This is why it is so easy for example take a random monster and assing it class levels if you so desire.


Lynos wrote:
So the Giant Spider, the Goblin, the wolf, they all just faint when under zero? And the PC's need to figure that out, right? Because otherwise the monster just looks dead.

They faint (are 'disabled'), but the rules for what happens when you're on negative HP are pretty harsh. Without medical treatment of some kind you're unlikely to recover. There's really no need to go around finishing off random wolves. Or you can just say you stab everything a couple more times after the battle to make sure (if they were dead already, no harm done), if you want to be able to channel healing without risking bringing things back.

Lynos wrote:
Do you award XP for beaten-but-not-dead enemies?

Yes.

In general, you don't get XP for killing things; you get XP for overcoming challenges, solving problems, and surviving danger. (Which you normally do by killing things.)


Matthew Downie wrote:
Lynos wrote:
So the Giant Spider, the Goblin, the wolf, they all just faint when under zero? And the PC's need to figure that out, right? Because otherwise the monster just looks dead.

They faint (are 'disabled'), but the rules for what happens when you're on negative HP are pretty harsh. Without medical treatment of some kind you're unlikely to recover. There's really no need to go around finishing off random wolves. Or you can just say you stab everything a couple more times after the battle to make sure (if they were dead already, no harm done), if you want to be able to channel healing without risking bringing things back.

Lynos wrote:
Do you award XP for beaten-but-not-dead enemies?

Yes.

In general, you don't get XP for killing things; you get XP for overcoming challenges, solving problems, and surviving danger. (Which you normally do by killing things.)

You should also award EXP if they avoid a fight by doing something else surprising.

About EXP -
I would NOT give out EXP. I would award a set amount of EXP for each cornerstone the party reaches. Awarding EXP for monsters fought or per social encounter can mess up the power curve time line you want the PC to use.

Grand Lodge

Matt2VK wrote:
You should also award EXP if they avoid a fight by doing something else surprising.

This is interesting. You award XP at your discretion? How do you decide how much to give? How do you keep everything balanced?

I was just basing it on the stats of the monsters.

Matt2VK wrote:
Awarding EXP for monsters fought or per social encounter can mess up the power curve time line you want the PC to use.

I'm afraid this is way too advanced for me... what is a power curve timeline? I'm not even close to having such a specific meta-view of the game.

This thing is like an onion. Every time I peel one layer I find another layer underneath...


The standard XP method is to award XP for encounters and encounter-equivalents. So if you defeat a CR 5 monster, that's XP. If you befriend it, that's the same amount of XP. Survive a trap? That's XP, based on the CR of the trap.

Steal the idol from the evil baron and return it to the temple? Hard to quantify, but if that's the conclusion to a quest where you fought CR5 monsters, we might give bonus XP equivalent to beating a CR5 to CR7 encounter.

Alternatively, you can skip XP entirely. Just level the players up when you feel they've earned it - typically every two or three gaming sessions.

Or do it based on campaign milestones. Map the swamp? They reach level 2. Defeat the goblin chief? They reach level 3. Find the treasure from the goblin's map in the scary cave? They reach level 4. This works better in more linear adventures. If your campaign is like that, then at least you know how dangerous to make the enemies in the cave, because you know what the PCs will be level 3 when they get there. This is easier to plan out than making sure they fight the right number of monsters to be level 3.

It depends, really, on how much the players enjoy receiving small amounts of XP, and whether you feel XP should be a reward, or whether heroic adventuring is its own reward and getting awarded points for it is a distraction from that.


Matthew Downie wrote:

The standard XP method is to award XP for encounters and encounter-equivalents. So if you defeat a CR 5 monster, that's XP. If you befriend it, that's the same amount of XP. Survive a trap? That's XP, based on the CR of the trap.

Steal the idol from the evil baron and return it to the temple? Hard to quantify, but if that's the conclusion to a quest where you fought CR5 monsters, we might give bonus XP equivalent to beating a CR5 to CR7 encounter.

Alternatively, you can skip XP entirely. Just level the players up when you feel they've earned it - typically every two or three gaming sessions.

Or do it based on campaign milestones. Map the swamp? They reach level 2. Defeat the goblin chief? They reach level 3. Find the treasure from the goblin's map in the scary cave? They reach level 4. This works better in more linear adventures. If your campaign is like that, then at least you know how dangerous to make the enemies in the cave, because you know what the PCs will be level 3 when they get there. This is easier to plan out than making sure they fight the right number of monsters to be level 3.

It depends, really, on how much the players enjoy receiving small amounts of XP, and whether you feel XP should be a reward, or whether heroic adventuring is its own reward and getting awarded points for it is a distraction from that.

What he said.

Handing out small amounts of EXP is probably more rewarding for the players but it can be a serious pain for the GM to keep track of. Specially if you award EXP for what the players do as individuals, as this can lead to all sorts of problems. Just don't award individual EXP!
Handing out a EXP reward for completing certain tasks is probably the easiest for the GM to handle. As this just makes it easier to plan ahead what your players will be facing.

***Couple big DO NOTs for new GM***
do NOT allow Craft Items feats. Scrolls and Potions crafting isn't too bad if you want to allow them but the item creature feats can really toss game balance out the window.

do NOT allow Leadership & Followers. This is like allowing the player to run two or more characters. Slows the game down for everyone else.
If the player wants a follower, they can play a summoning class or a pet class.

Both of these DO NOT is something you really want more experience in the game before trying to run and balance around. As is, you can find horror stories here in the advice thread of GMs asking for help with both of these.

Liberty's Edge

Lynos wrote:


Matt2VK wrote:
You should also award EXP if they avoid a fight by doing something else surprising.

This is interesting. You award XP at your discretion? How do you decide how much to give? How do you keep everything balanced?

I was just basing it on the stats of the monsters.

Matt2VK wrote:
Awarding EXP for monsters fought or per social encounter can mess up the power curve time line you want the PC to use.

I'm afraid this is way too advanced for me... what is a power curve timeline? I'm not even close to having such a specific meta-view of the game.

This thing is like an onion. Every time I peel one layer I find another layer underneath...

I have moved almost exclusively to a milestone / story point level up system. I find that works much better, and approximates handing out XP but without any bookkeeping!

Re: enemies below 0: without intervention, even rules as written, death is almost 100% guaranteed. If you want to have the chance of channel energy and the like accidentally reviving enemies, or enemies with healing bringing back allies, you keep the "alive until negative con" part, if you want to simplify your game it won't change much to take it out. Note that trolls and a few other things become a different matter if they die at 0 and don't get back up!

The power curve reference is I think about the kind of story you want to tell - when do they get nation altering powers like teleport? Quickly or never? Etc.

BTW, it sounds like you might appreciate someone to talk to in real time and get a bunch of questions out of the way quickly? I love this stuff and the game so feel free to drop a line at lash . ben @ gmail.com (no spaces) and we can gchat/hangout/skype or whatever. Happy to run a PFS scenario or something for you and your players too if you want! Enjoy,


Another way of looking at the power curve is when you want the players to be at what power when. Lets say you want to end the game with a big fight against a lich that can spam disintegrate. That means he + his minions probably have a minimum CR of 17. That means the players need to be roughly lv13-14 for the end. You now have sort of an XP clock. I need to give them roughly this much xp + treasure before this point in the plotline. Until then you can give out XP divided however you wish. If your short one session give them some extra the next. This works on a smaller scale as well. If the dungeon the players are currently in ends with a boss they need to level up in order to beat, you know how much XP to give over the course of the dungeon.

Also feel free to adjust XP up or down on individual encounters to show how well they overcame challenge. Sometimes an encounter is just super easy for some reason and not worth the full exp allotment. Other times it is far more difficult than the CR suggested and is therefore worth more.

Grand Lodge

Thanks all.

Dastis wrote:
Also feel free to adjust XP up or down on individual encounters to show how well they overcame challenge. Sometimes an encounter is just super easy for some reason and not worth the full exp allotment. Other times it is far more difficult than the CR suggested and is therefore worth more.

I really like this idea. You can award a player or the group for finding original solutions to problems (for example, defeating a monster). I like the idea that the xp refelcts the intelligence and resourcfullness of the group.

It's going to be challenging for my group. We don't really have a healer (we have a ranger with Heal skill, that's about it). I might give them some Cure Light Wounds potions as treasure or allow them to buy potions. So if they have a tough battle and they use resourcfullness to survive, it might be worth more xp.

Matt2VK wrote:
Handing out small amounts of EXP is probably more rewarding for the players but it can be a serious pain for the GM to keep track of.

Yes, knowing my group, I feel they will prefer getting an XP reward at the end of each session. If I find it's a pain the the neck to keep track off I might do adjustments.

Blashimov wrote:
BTW, it sounds like you might appreciate someone to talk to in real time and get a bunch of questions out of the way quickly? I love this stuff and the game so feel free to drop a line at lash . ben @ gmail.com (no spaces) and we can gchat/hangout/skype or whatever. Happy to run a PFS scenario or something for you and your players too if you want! Enjoy,

Thank you for the offer. Online gaming with my group will not be very practical, but if I feel the need for one-on-one consultation I might take you up on your offer. Although I have to admit, just using this message board is immensley helpful, everybody is so generous with advice.

At this point in time, I am not micromanaging the campaign, nor do I have an overarching plan or something. I will be running a module at first (Master of the Fallen Fortress) and see how it goes.


I personally would not mess with the XP as a new GM other than simply going. "XP is not used you level up with story milestones" So essentially GM fiat. It is just too easy to mess that one up and it can bring unhappy feelings from players that feel(wrongly or not) that they are being awarded XP unfairly.

Regarding the healing aspect. Ranger becomes a caster at level 4, after that wands of cure light wounds take care of any and all out of combat healing.(For the record in vast majority of situation in-combat healing is a bad idea untill the spell heal becomes available) Until then healing potions can work, though if you are willing there are some items back in 3.5 that can solve the issue. And you will need to solve the issue with magic/items because the natural healing is so slow.


Lynos wrote:
It's going to be challenging for my group. We don't really have a healer (we have a ranger with Heal skill, that's about it). I might give them some Cure Light Wounds potions as treasure or allow them to buy potions.

Generally speaking, Pathfinder changes the moment the group gets hold of a Wand of Cure Light Wounds - which can be pretty early since they're one of the cheapest magic items. A Ranger can use one without needing Use Magic Device skill, and fifty charges lasts a fair amount of time.

Grand Lodge

Yes, I need something to tide them over until the Ranger gets to lvl 4 or someone multi-classes into a Cleric. Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a great idea, but I see it costs 750 gp which they can't afford right now, and putting it as a random treasure feels like helping them too much. I prefer to switch some of the treasures in the module with a potion or two, or simply add extra treasure as potions.

I should also mention we only have 3 pc's in the game.


Yeah I was talking about when that level 4 comes. Then wand of CLW is chumps change for a group expense. Also when you compare it to potion costs it is so much more efficient spent gold.

Anyways since I hinted at it in the last post. There was something called eternal wand in 3.5, costs the same as normal wand of 50 charges, but it never runs out, the downside is that it works 3/day. For this group it would probably make sense since they will rely on consumables for healing. The other possible item would be, healing belt, it costs 750, gives +2 competence bonus on heal checks(this is not why I recomend it though) and it has 3 charges(per day), you can spend them either one by one, all of them at once or 2 charges and 1 charge. 1 charge heals 2d8, 2 charges 3d8 and 3 chargers 4d8.

Since you have only 3 players, and I would assume they are also new to the game, it would not unbalance the game too much to just give them the latter as a freebies. Say by the one giving the quest handing them as advance payment. You can also just take away bit of the treasure to account for this.


Lynos wrote:

Yes, I need something to tide them over until the Ranger gets to lvl 4 or someone multi-classes into a Cleric. Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a great idea, but I see it costs 750 gp which they can't afford right now, and putting it as a random treasure feels like helping them too much. I prefer to switch some of the treasures in the module with a potion or two, or simply add extra treasure as potions.

I should also mention we only have 3 pc's in the game.

You do NOT need to give them a complete Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Have seen plenty of published AP & modules that have wands with single digit charges left in them. Usually on the bodies of defeated foes.

Grand Lodge

Ha. I just looked through the module again, and it actually has Potion of Cure Light Wounds and Scroll of Lesser Healing as treasure. Plus, towards the end of the adventure, it has an encounter with a friendly NPC that has Cure Light Wounds as a spell.

So that's nice.

I'll consider the other options, though.

But this leads me to another question: Handling NPC's. I assume you just play them yourself as GM, right?
Something feels odd in playing an NPC that fights alongside the characters... because... I'm fighting the monsters I'm controlling. You know what I mean? I know their weak points etc.

Will it be advisable to let one of the players handle a friendly NPC during combat, make all the rolls and decisions for it?


Yes the GM typically plays NPC. In most cases you probably will want to control him and just play him very very basically. For example if its as cleric with a mace just say he heals X player Y damage or hits the monster with his mace. The goal is to minimize NPC spotlight hogging. Also remember to separate GM and character knowledge. Whatever the NPC knows he needs a knowledge check to know it(just take 10 if rolling would slow down the game)

Typically I am against players controlling NPCs but there are a few situations where it is a good idea. Firstly if that player has less actions per round than everyone else its ok. Say all of the other players have a familiar, an animal companion, etc. and he doesn't. The other case being if his character is out of the fight for whatever reason(killed, knocked out, paralyzed, or just not there). In either case make sure its a simple NPC that the player can control easily without holding up the game


friendly PCs I usually allow the PC to run within a set of guide lines. If the NPC is a tank, he tanks, support, be support, coward - hides in the background, a Noble flop the PC need to keep alive...well, I play this one because it's so much fun. :) With the GM having over-rule ability.

GM have way too much to do as is, then run friendly PCs

Grand Lodge

I understand both sides of the argument, but for me it feels weird running an encounter, controlling the enemy, and then also fight that same enemy with another character I'm controlling. It's like a split-personality disorder.

This will also depend how skilled the players have become in the game. Giving another character to another person to control will not work if they find it hard to make decisions for the character they already have.

I guess I'll have to see and play it by ear.

Thanks.


If you're having NPC join the party. I'd just make them ranged support for the party. Avoid making the damage dealers, tanks, or anything that might make that NPC become a prime target to what your party is fighting. This is to help avoid the "we can let him die, he's just a npc" effect.


Lynos wrote:
I understand both sides of the argument, but for me it feels weird running an encounter, controlling the enemy, and then also fight that same enemy with another character I'm controlling. It's like a split-personality disorder.

A GM has to learn to handle these things. After all, not all NPCs are going to be hostile to the party.

A simple character - like a pacifist Life Oracle who does nothing but heal the group shouldn't be too much trouble to run, either for the GM or for a player. But I can understand not wanting to complicate things early on.

Grand Lodge

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Hey guys

Some more random questions... this is not "going into 1st session" anymore but I still consider myself a noob. So here goes:

- There is a safe the PC's will need to crack in order to obtain an artifact that lies inside. They are in posseeion of some acid and a scroll of Shatter. Can either of these be used to damage the safe? (Shatter can cause Sunder but I'm not it sure if it applies here). The safe is Hardness 10 and HP 30.
Another way to open the safe would be to guess the combination, but I am considering all the options.

- I have a high level Wizard NPC that had a magical mishap and managed to turn himself into an owl. A wise owl, since he can still speak and think, he is just in the form of an owl. (he still wears his glasses, for example)
Is there anything in the PF rules that applies to this, or do I just run with this in a totally imporvised way?

Thanks!

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