Is NPC Wealth modified by Templates?


Rules Questions

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Pretty much what it says on the tin. Let us suppose that the PCs are fighting a 12th level wizard with the Lich Template (+2 CR). Does our Lich have wealth as a 12th level NPC (21,000) or as a 14th level NPC (34,800)?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dreikaiserbund wrote:
Pretty much what it says on the tin. Let us suppose that the PCs are fighting a 12th level wizard with the Lich Template (+2 CR). Does our Lich have wealth as a 12th level NPC (21,000) or as a 14th level NPC (34,800)?

It would be based on his HD. so if his hp is 12d6+XYZ he would be given the wealth for a 12lvl NPC

Under gamemastering Challenge Rating (or CR) is a convenient number used to indicate the relative danger presented by a monster, trap, hazard, or other encounter—the higher the CR, the more dangerous the encounter.

The CR of a monster is simply a convenient number to associate with the difficulty a party would have in trying to fight said monster. It is independent of the monsters actual level.


While I agree with Omagi that CR is a ballpark rather than an exact science, I don't think the purpose of the treasure values was to tie it to HD/level - that will result in under-valued encounters, by lowering expected PC loot. Plus, it runs the risk of making the creature "too weak" (though this term obviously varies from table to table).

Apologies: I'm on a cracked screen phone and proper formatting is rough.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/#Placing-Treasure

This values all assume CR-appropriate foes. Generally, a creature is presumed to have treasure based on its CR.

Also,

Quote:
Note that these values are approximate and based on the values for a campaign using the medium experience progression and a normal treasure allotment.

Found here.

That seems to indicate a CR-based presumption of placement (skewing the by-level amounts so that more treasure is placed in the hands of the NPC).

None of my arguments are "hard" - in fact, RAW alone, Omagi appears to be entirely correct, and I fully agree with his interpretation. Rather, I am cautioning that it is possible that following that path is unintended (given the developers have been explicit about the fact that the rules aren't meant to be a strict matrix, and depending on your group and NPC optimization, you can end up with underpowered NPCs and/or PCs (due to less treasure - though you can easily remedy this last part).

Ultimately, the exact value is up to you and I our group. Omagi nailed it with the hardline references, though!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

you should always take the CR into account, especially since paizo has put CR very important for thing like SR instead of HD like in 3.5 (which was more appropriate at my eyes) for creature (not player, player still use their HD)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

14th level npc


John Murdock wrote:
you should always take the CR into account, especially since paizo has put CR very important for thing like SR instead of HD like in 3.5 (which was more appropriate at my eyes) for creature (not player, player still use their HD)

This is really the source of my hesitancy. Paizo has tied much more to CR than they have to HD - they even base all their math around CR (which hypothetically creates more accurate CRs, though it distorts some elements of world-building), meaning most of the things they calculate are based on that.

It's worth noting, however, that just throwing more money into an NPC's lap does not make them more powerful.

Giving that lich an extra 13,800 gold in wands and potions of cure light wounds may be an extremely silly example, but it serves to point out: money is only equal to power (the design-goal/expectation of PF) when it is well-spent for the specific (N)PC in question.

The CRs of monsters generally ignore their wealth, and presume the PCs are facing a naked creature of some sort, but especially to get the "right" power level for your NPC, it presumes equipment, and the rough calculation of that power is how much it cost... but emphasis on rough, as that could easily be poorly spent to make it, if not worthless, then not really worthwhile, either.

Basically, I'm just posting a "use caution" sign. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

yeah but because of that a great old wyrm CR 22 with 29 HD has an SR of 33 (11+CR) instead of 40 (11+HD), great old wyrm is supposed to be very powerful so why its SR is just a little higher than a balor with 20 HD, SR 31 (11+CR) (at least it has 20 HD so if we take HD its still the same)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Tying wealth to CR could create some imbalances when the two numbers are really disparate. Suppose a CR 19 Immolation Devil got 1 level of fighter. His CR goes up by 1, if he also gets 159,000gp for being a level 20 NPC his effective threat level will go up much more than the +1 the fighter level suggests.


Ring_of_Gyges wrote:
Tying wealth to CR could create some imbalances when the two numbers are really disparate. Suppose a CR 19 Immolation Devil got 1 level of fighter. His CR goes up by 1, if he also gets 159,000gp for being a level 20 NPC his effective threat level will go up much more than the +1 the fighter level suggests.

That's very true by way of the rules based on monster roles, but I'm uncertain if that synchs with the generalized monster chart of comparisons. (I haven't done the math, so...)

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that this lets you guesstimate how much the actual CR is increased based on the change from the original CR - and that shift certainly seems to include equipment, in it's assumptions (much like the make a new monster chart doesn't care how many hit dice or what your scores, only about the final number they represent).

So... "CAUTION SIGN" again, I guess, both ways!

John Murdock wrote:
yeah but because of that a great old wyrm CR 22 with 29 HD has an SR of 33 (11+CR) instead of 40 (11+HD), great old wyrm is supposed to be very powerful so why its SR is just a little higher than a balor with 20 HD, SR 31 (11+CR) (at least it has 20 HD so if we take HD its still the same)

I know, right?! So weird...

Contributor

Well, I suppose it's nice to know I'm not the only one confused here. :B

I was particularly curious about this because I have a high-level campaign boss who 1) has a +2 CR template and 2) has PC-wealth. So at his level, the difference between the two calculations is something on the order of 100,000 gp. Not a small sum, or unimportant in CR calculations!

Hm. How do NPCs in published APs handle this, I wonder. I'll have to poke around.


1 cr is equivalent of 1 pc class level with pc wealth so something with a template that increases cr should gain the gold of something else of a level higher equal to the cr increase


Check the Treasure Values per Encounter table in the Gamemastering section of the core rules.

A CR 14 encounter should award 15,000 gp on average.

Now note that an NPC encounter should award three times the value.

Thus your CR 14 NPC encounter should award approximately 45,000 gp.

Compare this value to the NPC Gear table under the rules for creating NPCs.

This value equates exactly to the equipment of a 15th level NPC with class levels, which would be a CR 14 encounter.

Thus, if you're building a CR 14 encounter, using an NPC, that NPC should have 45,000 gp of equipment.

Even if the NPC CR is adjusted due to templates, it's the overall CR of the encounter that dictates the treasure it should carry.


Adventure paths are all over the place in regards to equipment of Monsters.
I would say they vaguely use the CR for determining treasure, if you average it out over them.
The Boss Battle tends to be over equipped and the minion battles under equipped.
The "use with caution" is probably the best suggestion and what Module writers themselves seem to do.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bestiary, Advancing Monsters, Adding Class Levels, Step 2 wrote:
A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table: NPC Gear. Once a total GP value is determined, follow the rules for outfitting an NPC as outlined in that section. Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR.

A template is basically "adding monster to class levels" rather than "adding class levels to monster", but the end result should be the same.


If the template is added to a humanoid who is based off of class levels the I have always increased the wealth due to the template, but I have never checked any official stats.

As for monsters who go by HD(such as pit fiends or dragons) they go by the total CR when determining treasures.

As for SR it goes by the base CR+11 for most creatures. If you as a GM modify the creature by adding class levels or HD then you have to make the call.

Monster in AP's dont get extra SR when class levels are added so I would say
that is the standard, even if it is not a written rule.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Is NPC Wealth modified by Templates? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.