is there anything for counter attacking


Advice


not as in AoOs. my DM does not allow for AoO at all. Everything from the chicken and up if he uses it knows how to combat like a master. I want to make something that counters attacks. That guy attacks you you can get a shot in before said attacks resolved. something like that. But I can't find anything on counter attacking. other than counter combat style which gives +2 AC nothing about allowing one free counter attacks. reposte allows you to chose a target to counter if it attacks you. And knowing my GM he would just not attack me with said target and mow me over with a new target.

I was thinking a human Racial Heritage (Orc) fighter (swordlord) that may work into dualist who uses both sword and grappling hook picking up the hook-fighter feat to use it. throw in mixed combat quick draw and quick sheath and Reverse-Feint. and all the prerequisites (toughness off the top me head is one) feats and combat reflexes. ohh and the counter combat styles.

what else could be used?

also thinking of combining the hook and pull fighter to this build. so escaping the counters will be impossible.


throwing blade archetype for swashbucklers and Come and get me rage power.


Ready action for the most basic.


As part of the Snake Style chain of feats in Ultimate Combat you can attack someone if they miss an attack on you. Take a look at Snake Fang: Ultimate Combat Feats


Upsetting style as well.


yeah, you can ready one ready action that's not guna help when you're surrounded by 6-8 monsters wanting to tear you limb from limb. my gm loves using overwhelming *tactical genius* force. I was thinking of luring targets in by wielding a one handed weapon but using quick draw and quick sheath and mixed combat to swap to a reach weapon so I could trick an AoO out of my DM.


Kindly inform your GM that with no AoO there is no tactical genius part to throwing large numbers out. That's zombie tactics, the furthest thing from tactical genius there is.

Also of you're looking for a way to gain 6 to 8 counter attacks a turn without an AoO, good luck. Fire shield is your closest bet.

Sovereign Court

Mutants and Masterminds doesn't have AoO but yeah that's an odd choice to say the least.

Many counter attack are based around the AoO mechanics.


I'm not sure there's a way to counterattack outside of readied actions or AoOs. Swashbuckler Parry and Riposte uses AoOs. The Come and Get Me rage power uses AoOs.

I guess you can ready a Cleave?


Cavall wrote:
Upsetting style as well.

Is that an actual style? if so linkage, please?

Scarab Sages

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If your GM disallows AoOs you're not really playing Pathfinder anymore. It's a core part of the combat system and helps balance tactical movement, ranged attacks, and spell casting.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

I'm not sure there's a way to counterattack outside of readied actions or AoOs. Swashbuckler Parry and Riposte uses AoOs. The Come and Get Me rage power uses AoOs.

I guess you can ready a Cleave?

I think the OP said no AoOs because the GM plays characters in such a way as to never provoke AoOs. So, Come and Get Me should be fine.

Honestly, Come and Get Me barbarian is probably the scariest build in this regard because they typically deal a very large amount of damage and they get to resolve their attacks first.


Claxon wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:

I'm not sure there's a way to counterattack outside of readied actions or AoOs. Swashbuckler Parry and Riposte uses AoOs. The Come and Get Me rage power uses AoOs.

I guess you can ready a Cleave?

I think the OP said no AoOs because the GM plays characters in such a way as to never provoke AoOs. So, Come and Get Me should be fine.

Honestly, Come and Get Me barbarian is probably the scariest build in this regard because they typically deal a very large amount of damage and they get to resolve their attacks first.

The flying blade swashbuckler is another good option for this same reason, the draw for FBS is that it comes online at lv3 instead of lv12, and if you decide to go dex based you'll have a HUGE number of AoO's via combat reflexes.


Taking out all AoO is a horrible idea. I could see houseruling out certain circumstances, but eliminating them from Pathfinder disrupts the flow of combat and the way the entire game is designed.

OP you must send the GM to the forums where we can help explain the rules to him if need be.

Aside from that, I don't know how to help you. Your GM is off on their own where rules have no meaning.


Grab a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes. If they walk up to you directly, you get an AOO, becasue you threaten out at 10ft, and they leave the 10ft threatened square to ge tto the 5ft square to actually hit you. If you want you can trip as part of an AOO. If you want you can build for it and medium humanoids will literally throw themselfes at your feet ;-)

And if they dont go to you directly and stay at 1 square out so as not to provoke an AOO, they just wasted a turn. :-) And you can attack them with your reach wepon, and then 5ft-step backwards :-).

But you need something like Improved Unarmed Strike, natural non-claw-weapons or Armor Spikes to still treaten at 5ft distance simultaneously. If yuo get zerg-rushed by massive numbers comstantly, get Quickdraw to switch from your reach weapon to a normal one if you cant maneuver when completly surrounded.

For extra funsies combine this with a Come and Get Me Barbarian to slaughter half a russian-stlye human wave attack when it isnt even your turn.


Guru-Meditation wrote:

Grab a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes. If they walk up to you directly, you get an AOO, becasue you threaten out at 10ft, and they leave the 10ft threatened square to ge tto the 5ft square to actually hit you. If you want you can trip as part of an AOO. If you want you can build for it and medium humanoids will literally throw themselfes at your feet ;-)

And if they dont go to you directly and stay at 1 square out so as not to provoke an AOO, they just wasted a turn. :-) And you can attack them with your reach wepon, and then 5ft-step backwards :-).

But you need something like Improved Unarmed Strike, natural non-claw-weapons or Armor Spikes to still treaten at 5ft distance simultaneously. If yuo get zerg-rushed by massive numbers comstantly, get Quickdraw to switch from your reach weapon to a normal one if you cant maneuver when completly surrounded.

For extra funsies combine this with a Come and Get Me Barbarian to slaughter half a russian-stlye human wave attack when it isnt even your turn.

The OP has said that their GM does not allow AoO's. So that means no one provokes AoOs for anything.


zainale wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Upsetting style as well.
Is that an actual style? if so linkage, please?

link

It's a style that throws people off balance, making it hard for them to hit you. Then if they miss you, free attack. Last level gives the penalty to the creature for every target not just You, and free attack if it misses them.

It actually makes bashing with a ready action very viable, as you can hit, give a penalty and hit again.

Plus It turns bucklers into light shields.

Sadly it is an AoO. It was more a response that there's styles that allow attacks on misses.


I was thinking of using a sword with the quick draw and quick sheath so I can swap out the sword for a reach weapon. so tactically the enemy be it a chicken or a human will see I have a sword and can just charge my PC and using my free actions to pull out my reach weapon and hit them 15 feet from my PC.

Brother Fen
sorry, can't do he does not have the net. so I can't send him to the forums.

my GM did not remove the AoO system he just plays everything he controls as tactically intelligent as possible. They run up to the danger zone then step into it with caution so as not to provoke an attack of opportunity. It's very annoying since he starts a lot of combat with them already surrounding the party PCs on the field. then take advantage of AoO when my PC is suddenly surrounded by 6-8 beasties and can't reposition or does and spends the rest of the night koed because he got AoO to unconsciousness. thus the asking for a way to counter attacks. it won't save the PC but at least its trying to do something.


Well the quick draw thing won't work that Well, excepting talking most free actions take place on your turn.

I'd recommend a bashing build if you can (even better with that upsetting style!)

Bashing them back 5 feet and stepping back 5 of your own means they have to get only one attack in or waste a lot of time. And if you bash them on a free AoO and they moved up already they get no further actions to move or attack you (although remaining attacks could be used on people in their new range. IF you use the upsetting style that suffers a penalty with mastery though, too).

A fortuitous weapon may be the perfect addition there for such a build.


Excepting that the Cleave line may be a strong route to look into as mentioned before. If they want to stand 6 deep in a circle, oblige them.


zainale wrote:

not as in AoOs. my DM does not allow for AoO at all. Everything from the chicken and up if he uses it knows how to combat like a master. I want to make something that counters attacks. That guy attacks you you can get a shot in before said attacks resolved. something like that. But I can't find anything on counter attacking. other than counter combat style which gives +2 AC nothing about allowing one free counter attacks. reposte allows you to chose a target to counter if it attacks you. And knowing my GM he would just not attack me with said target and mow me over with a new target.

I was thinking a human Racial Heritage (Orc) fighter (swordlord) that may work into dualist who uses both sword and grappling hook picking up the hook-fighter feat to use it. throw in mixed combat quick draw and quick sheath and Reverse-Feint. and all the prerequisites (toughness off the top me head is one) feats and combat reflexes. ohh and the counter combat styles.

what else could be used?

also thinking of combining the hook and pull fighter to this build. so escaping the counters will be impossible.

The threads you post make me sad and confused. Your GM sounds like a very bad GM.


Flowing Monk is the king of being mobbed and kicking butt. Combine with Snake Style.

That your GM doesn't allow AoO means a few good things. Ranged attackers can shoot bad guys in the face with utter impunity. Your casters should be able to laugh and laugh and laugh as they incinerate his monsters at in-your-face range. In short, look up all of the stuff that normally provokes AoOs - and do all of them. Alchemist's fire to the face. Holy water to the demon's junk. Stand up from prone. Perform all of the combat maneuvers without concern.

When you see bizarre house rules like that, abuse the Hell out of 'em. With your 'chained' Flowing Monk. Who gets more AC when mobbed by mooks and is able to send the buggers prone and flying every which way so your melee BSF and rogue can carve them up like turkey dinners.


is there a martial area of effecter kinda build? that would work maybe. I am trying to avoid a one on one kinda build since my GM loves the 10 on 1 odds.


You really need to closely examine the Flowing Monk. That class is King of the Ring in mob combat. Specc the character for defense and Dex so you can turn the mobs against themselves.

You get +1 AC/mob around you capped at your Wisdom bonus. Snake Style lets you use Sense Motive checks as an immediate action to replace your AC/CMD/Touch AC. Immediate actions are NOT an AoO, and if the GM says it is, best to pack your stuff and move on or fire that person from being your group's screen monkey 'cause they can't handle the game.

If you're more inclined to offense, Barbarian (not the lame unchained version) going full-on Come and Get Me - for which there are build guides online - with the biggest nastiest two-handed weapon you can get your grubby paws on without burning a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, the Cleave feats and Furious Focus will slaughter mobs in droves. Except mobs of oozes, those you run away from like a scared schoolgirl. 'cause mobs of oozes are horrific.


Nothing lame about unchained barbarian. It's clean clear and closed some s$+%e loopholes.


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Several people getting tripped up (HA!) on the AoO thing. Read this part again:

zainale wrote:
Everything from the chicken and up if he uses it knows how to combat like a master.

The GM is not throwing out AoO's. They are playing foes in combat such that they never/rarely provoke.

Scarab Sages

Swashbuckler is a class built around counter attacking. It's the easiest way I can think of to get the ability. And if the GM wants to avoid you doing it, the only thing he can really do is not attack you. Crane Style and Crane Riposte can get you there for a single counter attack a round, but it's less reliable. Snake Style can get you multiple counterattack a a round, and like with Swashbuckler, the only real way to avoid it is not to attack you. It doesn't come online until level 9, though. Improved Trip->Greater Trip is another way to generate AoOs yourself, combined with Vicious Stomp you can get 2 from the same successful trip.

A different option would be to take the Cleave, Greater Cleave, Goblin Cleave, Orc Cleave feat chain and use enlarge person. You can eventually cleave everything on the board, more or less. It's not counterattacking, but the more opponents, the more potential attacks.


was going to use counter combat style but its third party and I should have seen it coming the feat was very useful.


Guru-Meditation wrote:

Grab a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes. If they walk up to you directly, you get an AOO, becasue you threaten out at 10ft, and they leave the 10ft threatened square to ge tto the 5ft square to actually hit you. If you want you can trip as part of an AOO. If you want you can build for it and medium humanoids will literally throw themselfes at your feet ;-)

And if they dont go to you directly and stay at 1 square out so as not to provoke an AOO, they just wasted a turn. :-) And you can attack them with your reach wepon, and then 5ft-step backwards :-).

But you need something like Improved Unarmed Strike, natural non-claw-weapons or Armor Spikes to still treaten at 5ft distance simultaneously. If yuo get zerg-rushed by massive numbers comstantly, get Quickdraw to switch from your reach weapon to a normal one if you cant maneuver when completly surrounded.

For extra funsies combine this with a Come and Get Me Barbarian to slaughter half a russian-stlye human wave attack when it isnt even your turn.

come and get me is okish but there are several down sides to it, it require you to be A)in a rage, B)have to be barbarian,scaled, bloodrager or vmc barbarian which isn't good if you want to play something else other than barbarian and C) it comes online way to late needing 12 levels of the aforementioned classes


I mean, I guess the Swashbuckler's parry & riposte and the Barbarian's come and get me rage power are the most direct "counter-attack" mechanics I can think of...if you're playing a game without AoOs, though, it sounds like you're up the creek without a paddle, pretty much everything even resembling a counter-attacker revolves around them.

Cavall wrote:
Nothing lame about unchained barbarian. It's clean clear and closed some s*&&e loopholes.

Losing spell sunder is pretty lame, though. :(


zainale wrote:
not as in AoOs. my DM does not allow for AoO at all.

There are the Panther Style Feats. You get a Free Action Attack whenever you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a Threatened Square. those aren't Attacks of Opportunity.

There is a magic item, Crown of Swords. It summons a Spiritual Sword to attack anyone who just scored a hit on you.

There is the Phalanx Soldier Archetype. At level 5, you can ready a Brace Weapon to receive a Charge as an Immediate Action. If you also have the Quickdraw Feat, you should be able to do that even if you do not have your pole arm in hand. So you could be shooting arrows at your opponent to finesse them into charging and then when they do charge, bristle out with your Lucerne Hammer and impale them for Double Damage.

There is the Halfling Opportunist Prestige Class, which gives you broad leeway in using your opponents' actions to help you.

zainale wrote:
my GM did not remove the AoO system he just plays everything he controls as tactically intelligent as possible. They run up to the danger zone then step into it with caution so as not to provoke an attack of opportunity. It's very annoying since he starts a lot of combat with them already surrounding the party PCs on the field. then take advantage of AoO when my PC is suddenly surrounded by 6-8 beasties and can't reposition or does and spends the rest of the night koed because he got AoO to unconsciousness. thus the asking for a way to counter attacks. it won't save the PC but at least its trying to do something.

That sounds like your GM is metagaming. I think he shouldn't do that. Too bad.

MySinIsPride wrote:
you can attack someone if they miss an attack on you. Take a look at Snake Fang

That bonus attack is an Attack of Opportunity, which you, zainale, said you don't want, but it sounds like good advice based on what you said: Snake Fang is a very sensitive Attack of Opportunity trigger. Every time someone attacks you and misses, you get an Attack of Opportunity.

Another one to consider is Broken Wing Gambit. That gives your opponents +2 to attack and damage, but you (and your allies--it's a Teamwork Feat) get an Attack of Opportunity whenever you are attacked.

zainale wrote:
my GM did not remove the AoO system he just plays everything he controls as tactically intelligent as possible. They run up to the danger zone then step into it with caution so as not to provoke an attack of opportunity.

So you can still make attacks of opportunity in other ways: Greater Bull Rush, Greater Trip, etc?

zainale wrote:
It's very annoying since he starts a lot of combat with them already surrounding the party PCs on the field. then take advantage of AoO when my PC is suddenly surrounded by 6-8 beasties

Well, that sounds like a job for Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack.


True about spell sunder. Not exploding is a plus though. So give and take.

Ok so taking a look at your options, let's go with...

An enlarged build for 10 feet, stops them at 10 and have to creep in..
Use cleave for all those at the 10 foot point...
5 foot step back...
Fortuitous weapons for hitting the few dumb enough to jump in
Combat reflexes to hit more than one..

And if you're into the shield thing, that upsetting style to make them hit less often and suffer for missing.

All this will really come on line as a human by about level 4 as a fighter. Maybe 3. The fortuitous will have to wait to likely 5. Ranger could manage it by 5 or 6.

All told you'll need minimum...
Dex 15
Imp shield bash
Power attack
STR 13
Cleave
Great cleave
Upsetting shield style
Upsetting strike
Combat reflexes

Human fighter will have 7 feats by 5th. Just have a strong dex to adjust fpr the change in dex when enlarge person is cast or you cant use upsetting strike. Then maybe some small investment in bashing feats to push them back. Pump the a.c. up, and smack the line, back up slightly and watch them either charge in and soak the hits or waste actions trying to sneak in.

If you do go fighter there are options to combine multiple styles. Very fast very tough and very smart build.

Once you get warrior spirit you can add in training on your weapon for a feat on the run.


John Mechalas wrote:

Several people getting tripped up (HA!) on the AoO thing. Read this part again:

zainale wrote:
Everything from the chicken and up if he uses it knows how to combat like a master.
The GM is not throwing out AoO's. They are playing foes in combat such that they never/rarely provoke.

Pretty sure this part is why we think the OP's GM got rid of AoOs:

OP wrote:
my DM does not allow for AoO at all.

The punctuation established it, so the tl;dr effect kicks in and a separate sentence elaborates on the GM's apparent obsession with overwhelming zerg tactics.

My biggest griefs about unchained barbarian, unless there's been errata I missed, is (a) they do NOT get the normal bump up on their Fort saves that they used to; and (b) they nerfed the Superstitious rage power to not work against supernatural attacks. Ya know, like breath weapons, the kinds of things that generally have high DCs that the superstitious barbarian is reasonably good at dealing with when 'chained'. Thus, I won't play Unchained Barbarians. More power to those that like it. Not my cuppa.


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The OP is more explicit in their fourth post (18th in the thread). Up until then we just had to guess, and (unfortunately) completely removing AoOs is something I've seen people saying their GM is doing. And it's way harder to work around than "every monster is a tactical genius". There's loads of ways to force an AoO or tactical mistake.

The simplest way is a reach weapon. They stop at 10 feet so they don't provoke an AoO. Smack them with your weapon and 5 foot step back. Now they need to move (and provoke) to reach you or they can 5 foot step and you just repeat. Just don't walk backwards over a cliff.

The advanced form of that is a reach weapon with Pushing Assault. They need to stop at 10 feet to not provoke, use Pushing Assault to smack them back to 15 feet. 5 foot step back and make it 20, if you really want to. Maybe throw in Lunge if you have more than one attack and enemy that needs pushing.

Then there's some Barbarian stuff: Unexpected Strike to get an AoO when they enter a threatened square (even by 5 foot step), Cult Totem to get an AoO when they hurt your allies in melee, and Come and Get Me to get an AoO every time they attack you that resolves before their attack does.

Swashbuckler Parry and Riposte doesn't require choosing a target, not sure what Riposte you're talking about. It lets you deflect an attack (by spending panache) and if you succeed and still have panache, lets you make an attack against them (1/round, as it's an immediate action). You only use it once you get attacked.

Then there's some style feats. Snake is the best, it only requires that enemies attack and miss you. Panther requires that opponents take AoOs against you, if your GM is metagaming then this will basically be worthless. No one will attack you for moving at least. Upsetting is more difficult to set up, you have to hit them first, then you get an AoO if they miss by a certain margin. Crane is a little better than Upsetting, it has a similar "must miss by a certain margin" for the regular version but you can also go full defense and guarantee that an attack misses and you get an AoO against them.


Also, monk of the sacred mountain gets an AC bonus for staying in the same spot at the end of your turn. Combine that with decent ability modifiers and a vial of mage armor oil you're sitting pretty while your GM sends those ten guys at you. Kick their ass as they miss you're incredibly high AC with snake fang.


can't play a barbarian or a monk. the party already has them. toe stepping it's not something I like to do.


Then Style feats or Swashbuckler. Style feats aren't monk exclusive. Many require Improved Unarmed Strike and some of the BAB requirements are instead level for a monk but the feats themselves are fairly class independent. Skills ranks and a couple feats, usually. Same as any other feat chain.


I bet you could make your GM take AoOs if you played an Abberant Bloodrager using a reach weapon who casts Enlarge Person and Longarm on himself, for a total of 30' of reach.

I mean, if they want to 5 foot step every round once they're in the danger zone, you're going to get a lot of full attacks in.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Then Style feats or Swashbuckler. Style feats aren't monk exclusive. Many require Improved Unarmed Strike and some of the BAB requirements are instead level for a monk but the feats themselves are fairly class independent. Skills ranks and a couple feats, usually. Same as any other feat chain.

Yes the one I suggested merely needs what you'd use anyways. It's for bashing so you need bashing. Very straight forward.


One (not very good) feat chain that does something like this is Misdirection Tactics, Misdirection Redirection, and Misdirection Attack. The first lets you (when fighting defensively) use an immediate action to Bluff and make the attack miss, the second makes the missed attack try to hit an adjacent ally of your attacker, and the third gives you an attack of opportunity against the original attacker.

So if you've got a lot of feats to burn on this, can afford to use your immediate action, have a really high Bluff modifier, and don't mind the to-hit penalties of fighting defensively, this can give you a free AoO and diverted attack every round when facing two or more enemies.

Liberty's Edge

Flowing monk and swashbuckler.


Step 1: Get the combat reflexes feat
Step 2: Get a reach weapon
Step 3: Drink a potion of enlarge person


I would honestly suggest trying out a swashbuckler build, as Opportune Parry and Reposte can be incredibly useful.
Human Swashbuckler 5/weapon master fighter 2
1) Weapon Finesse (bonus), Weapon Focus (human bonus), Combat Reflexes
3) Slashing/Fencing Grace
4) Weapon Spec. (Class Bonus)
5) Extra Panache, Improved Critical (class)
6) Dirty Fighter
7) Improved Trip (fighter), Improved Disarm

This is just a basic hodge-podge build based on using either a Rapier or a Scimitar for the greater crit range in order to help regain panache quickly. Using trip or disarm tactically can help to even the odds, and depending on your campaign you can adjust the build accordingly.


JDLPF wrote:

Step 1: Get the combat reflexes feat

Step 2: Get a reach weapon
Step 3: Drink a potion of enlarge person

Step 4: Add Fortuitous to your weapon.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You could try to talk to your GM in a conversation between two reasonable people. Say, "hey, I've noticed all of your monsters show a lot of tactical skill, even the ones that are supposed to be unintelligent like zombies--is that intentional?" And "I notice we always seem to start encounters with the monsters surrounding us--could you apply the Core Rulebooks encounter distance (based on terrain) and give us Perception checks so we have more time to prepare?" Keep it friendly, and see what happens.

The last thing you want to do is get into a game of one-upsmanship against the GM, because a GM never loses.


Quote:
my DM does not allow for AoO

Your GM has odd house rules. I would renegotiate.

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