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So I just put this together and I'm wondering why I've never seen this build.
So the Unchained monk gains proficiency with ALL monk weapons, and their flurry just gives them a free attack. Unlike normal monk flurry (or brawler flurry), it makes no mention of limits for two-handing weapons.
So why aren't strength based monks flurrying with the sansetsukon? Can wild it two handed (presumably by whiling it around your body) can flurry, does 1d10 damage off the bat. . . It also is cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists and frees up your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor.
I mean, flurry power attack+strx1.5 damage, I'm not seeing a downside here?
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Seems legit...
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My understanding is that you only get 1x your st bonus when doing a flurry of blows regardless of if your wielding a weapon 1handed or 2 handed.
Edit. Although the specific language that implied that limit seemes to be missing from the unchained monks flurry of blows discription
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My understanding is that you only get 1x your st bonus when doing a flurry of blows regardless of if your wielding a weapon 1handed or 2 handed.
Edit. Although the specific language that implied that limit seemes to be missing from the unchained monks flurry of blows discription
Correct.
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yes, unchained gets 1.5 str like normal. That's why I have a bloodraging monk, that goes to town with a sansetsukon.
The downside and why you don't see it all that much is the not wearing armor deal, so it's not the easiest to multi-class with.
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yes, unchained gets 1.5 str like normal. That's why I have a bloodraging monk, that goes to town with a sansetsukon.
The downside and why you don't see it all that much is the not wearing armor deal, so it's not the easiest to multi-class with.
Yeah but, why multiclass anyway? I mean, just off the top of my head, Nagaji scaled fist with the pragmatic activator trait to UMD wands of mage armor (and maybe shield). Boom, done. Like, the scimitar intensified shocking grasp magus is a thing, just wondering why this isn't a more popular build.
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Cause they can't wear armor is why is not popular. Also they still have no in class attack boosters, so they are less accurate than other full bab classes
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I've seen a monk two handing a temple sword before, and flurrying with that.
Flurry is doable with all weapons of the Monk group, provided the monk is proficient with them, last time I heard, all monks are proficient with the Temple sword.
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Cause they can't wear armor is why is not popular. Also they still have no in class attack boosters, so they are less accurate than other full bab classes
That. . . Doesn't make sense. Kensai magus is a popular choice and they don't get armor. Plus, by adding their dex, and wisdom (or cha) to AC, plus mage armor if they put a little effort into it (or have a friend), then the AC game is pretty much a wash. And even if their normal AC is slightly lower, their touch AC is usually much higher.
And as for accuracy. . . What? I mean, cavaliers/samurai, rangers (if you don't include favored enemies), brawlers, none of them really get 'accuracy boost' class powers and they do just fine. And they don't get a free extra attack at their highest BAB, which not only in increases your damage per round but also increases the chances that you will hit. Just like any full BAB class, get a strength belt, a +x sansetsukon, and you should be great.
Heck my level 11 Ronin Samurai has a redonkukous to hit, and she only has a +2 strength belt and weapon focus (and a +4 katana).
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I don't know that much about monks, but I wouldn't worry at all about being less accurate than other full BAB classes. You're full BAB, presumably with at least 16 starting strength. Flurry gives you an extra attack at no penalty (unlike Rapid Shot or TWF for rangers, etc). So even if your accuracy per shot is at -2 to -4 compared to a fully optimized barbarian, you're taking an extra attack, so you're likely to hit at least as often.
I could see the armor class thing being an issue. You add your dex and wisdom, but you're pretty MAD, so it'll be hard to keep both of those up, along with your str for attacking and con for HP. But all monks have that issue, and wands of Mage Armor are very popular, if you travel with someone who can cast it on you.
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I figured it was because the ki pool class feature makes you come back to unarmed strikes.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can make one additional unarmed strike at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.
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I figured it was because the ki pool class feature makes you come back to unarmed strikes.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can make one additional unarmed strike at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.
It sounds to me like the extra ki attack needs to be unarmed. That shouldn't stop you from using a monk weapon on the other attacks in the flurry.
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It sounds to me like the extra ki attack needs to be unarmed. That shouldn't stop you from using a monk weapon on the other attacks in the flurry.I figured it was because the ki pool class feature makes you come back to unarmed strikes.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can make one additional unarmed strike at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack.
No, but it does mean you are splitting your resources between two different kinds of attack.
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Or to power your style strike for your "pounce" since that also requires an US.
And my things aren't saying they can't be overcome, but that those would be reasons to not play it.
I don't see that many full bralwers, and the ones I do are mutagenic maulers for the attack boost, Cavalier's have improved charges for attack boosts and the popular orders I've seen are ones that add accuracy on the challenge.
Like it's not that the class is useless, but not having them is a reason people wouldn't play the class, especially when coupled with the need to try and figure out how to get AC up since you can't wear armor.
Are they amazing? Yes, that's why I like them so much, but it explains why they aren't widespread.
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Doesn't ascetic style help with the ki strike thing?
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Doesn't ascetic style help with the ki strike thing?
Sure it can if you want to use that chain and it's legal for you.
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you just have to ownn the Weapon Master hb...
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most 3/4 bab classes will have in class attack and damage boosters to make them comparable to a full bab class.
Like occultist has legacy weapon and resonance power to str faster than a belt can be bought to have good accuracy.
Summoner has heroism, mounted usually gets the +1 for higher ground, and you're likely charging like all the time since you're not full attack reliant.
WP has swift action fervor for buffs.
Druid has wild shape and spells.
Cleric has a few domains and spells.
bard has heroism/good hope, inspire courage.
Unchained rogues get debilitating strike to lower AC.
hunter has animal focus
inquisitor has judgment and bane.
ETC.
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The best way to utilize two handed fury is a one level dip. Prolly best with 2 levels of ninja for a ki-pool.
But a lot of people do it :)
Sounds like a fun build...
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So I just put this together and I'm wondering why I've never seen this build.
So the Unchained monk gains proficiency with ALL monk weapons, and their flurry just gives them a free attack. Unlike normal monk flurry (or brawler flurry), it makes no mention of limits for two-handing weapons.
So why aren't strength based monks flurrying with the sansetsukon? Can wild it two handed (presumably by whiling it around your body) can flurry, does 1d10 damage off the bat. . . It also is cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists and frees up your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor.
I mean, flurry power attack+strx1.5 damage, I'm not seeing a downside here?
It's suggested in the optimisation guide and my monk does it it basically gives you higher level Unarmed strike +1.5x damage (maybe a style that let fists do the same)
So I just put this together and I'm wondering why I've never seen this build.
So the Unchained monk gains proficiency with ALL monk weapons, and their flurry just gives them a free attack. Unlike normal monk flurry (or brawler flurry), it makes no mention of limits for two-handing weapons.
So why aren't strength based monks flurrying with the sansetsukon? Can wild it two handed (presumably by whiling it around your body) can flurry, does 1d10 damage off the bat. . . It also is cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists and frees up your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor.
I mean, flurry power attack+strx1.5 damage, I'm not seeing a downside here?
1) They do not get bonus strength damage from 2handing weapons.
3) They cannot use monk weapons with a number of monk abilities such as Stunning Fist, bonus attack from Ki Pool, and Style Strike.
4) You get more AC with a dex build.
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So I just put this together and I'm wondering why I've never seen this build.
So the Unchained monk gains proficiency with ALL monk weapons, and their flurry just gives them a free attack. Unlike normal monk flurry (or brawler flurry), it makes no mention of limits for two-handing weapons.
So why aren't strength based monks flurrying with the sansetsukon? Can wild it two handed (presumably by whiling it around your body) can flurry, does 1d10 damage off the bat. . . It also is cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists and frees up your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor.
I mean, flurry power attack+strx1.5 damage, I'm not seeing a downside here?
1) They do not get bonus strength damage from 2handing weapons.
2) Monks do not need an Amulet of Natural Armor and shouldn't ever have one. They should be using Barkskin instead (courtesy of Qinggong Power).
3) They cannot use monk weapons with a number of monk abilities such as Stunning Fist, bonus attack from Ki Pool, and Style Strike.
4) You get more AC with a dex build.except 1)you do
2)says you
3)who cares
4)debatable on benefits for doing so
1) I missed that the Unchained Monk does not have the same wording regarding strength modifier for flurry of blows as the regular monk. Edited.
2) I have never used an Amulet of Natural Armor with a monk (or unchained monk) because you get Barkskin which gives you everything Amulet of Natural Armor gives you for no gold and at a decently long duration. That means that if you are putting an amulet of natural armor on your Strength monk build you just used the exact amount of gold that you would've been spending on an Amulet of Mighty Fists (weapon +ANA = same cost as AMF).
3) Who cares? Well I don't know about you, but I would rather be able to use the Style Strike abilities. Being able to move 30' and still make a flurry of blows seems pretty important to me.
4) how is AC debatable? Either it is higher or it is not.
Perhaps what is needed is an actual comparison of builds. If someone posts a level 12 strength build I will counter with a level 12 dexterity build and then we can make tweaks to see where each of them will wind up on damage etc.
Assume level 12 single class (we are comparing monks, not other classes) with a +2str/+2wis race (such as Tiefling Oni-Spawn) vs a +2dex/+2wis race (such as Aasimar Garuda), 20point buy, WBL, and 2 traits.
So if you really wann cheese out te two handed sansetsukon flurry then here's how it goes:
Nagaji
STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 5 WIS 12 CHA 16
1 level of Unchained Monk Sacred Fist Monk
2 levels of Ninja for Ki Pool and a sneak Attack die and a free Feat
1 level of Cleric for Channel Energy
Buy a Bronze gongchannel focus
So if you really wann cheese out te two handed sansetsukon flurry then here's how it goes:
Nagaji
STR 18 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 5 WIS 12 CHA 16
1 level of Unchained Monk Sacred Fist Monk
2 levels of Ninja for Ki Pool and a sneak Attack die and a free Feat
1 level of Cleric for Channel EnergyBuy a Bronze gongchannel focus
I do not see the Sacred Fist Monk archetype or the 'bronze gongchannel focus', do you have references?
If I type sacred fist monk in google first thing that pos up...
Bronze gong is a little trickier:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bronze%2 0gong
If I type sacred fist monk in google first thing that pos up...
Bronze gong is a little trickier:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bronze%2 0gong
Ok, so I type sacred fist monk and the first thing that pops up is a Warpriest archetype. So I ask again, what is the reference to your Sacred Fist Monk archetype. The link please?
Here is the corrected link for Bronze Gong.
Regularly buying bronze gongs to regain a single ki point is a pretty wasteful use of wealth.
There is no sacred fist monk archetype that i can find
will post the monk build in approximately 1 week (Are drawbacks allowed)
Also assuming Quinggong monk is allowed
It is my experience that most GMs don't allow drawbacks so, lets keep that out (too easy to cherry pick ones that have minimal impact).
Regarding Qinggong Monk, Unchained Monks can take Qinggong Power.
PFS rules?
PFS rules?
Sure if you want. I don't play PFS though so I will have to read up which resources are allowed.
Edit: Having just skimmed them, for this purpose the allowable races include any race that PFS allows even if it requires a chronicle sheet although for best comparability races with +2str/+2wis and +2dex/+2wis should be used.
PFS rules?Sure if you want. I don't play PFS though so I will have to read up which resources are allowed.
Thanks, I have played PFS (briefly) before, I just don't have any interest in it so I am not current on the resources. Easily remedied.
TBH, my dex based monk build is relatively simple, it is basically a dex to damage build that provokes as many movement related AoOs as possible and responds in kind via Panther Claw while still making a full attack sequence via Flurry of Blows (due to Style Strike's Flying Kick).
There shouldn't be any conflict with PFS restrictions.
At level 12 I expect 6attacks per round (with haste) at full BAB, 1 attack at BAB-5, and 1 attack at BAB-10 against a single target plus AoOs against other targets along the way.
How do you get 6 attacks at full BAB the vanilla unchained monk only gets 3 at full, 1 at -5, 1 at -10
3 +Ki +haste +response to an AoO (Panther Claw) = 6 at full BAB.
A monk using a weapon is only eligible for 4 full BAB (3 +haste) attacks as the bonus attack via Ki and Panther Claw require unarmed strikes.
My build basically provokes as many AoOs as possible (up to wisdom mod; limit 1 per enemy) every round.
Round 1) Use Flying Kick to get into melee. Since straight line movement is not required (though it should be) I can weave between opponents provoking as many AoOs (up to wisdom mod) as possible. By moving past my final target I will also provoke from him thus supplying the 6th attack.
Round 2) repeat, on the same target if necessary (again, no minimum distance or straight line movement required).
Thus, I can move 40' make multiple attacks along the route, and get 8 attacks at the end (6*BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10 assuming I have Haste).
With a really high AC (37 to 41 or so) provoking that many AoOs will not be an issue.
With an average of a +20 to hit at CR 12 no the AOOs will not be an issue
And I was under the impression we were comparing Strength monk to Dex monk not Dex monk to strength monk with sword
If it is the latter then I withdraw (at level 12 my fist damage is 2d6)
With an average of a +20 to hit at CR 12 no the AOOs will not be an issue
And I was under the impression we were comparing Strength monk to Dex monk not Dex monk to strength monk with sword
If it is the latter then I withdraw (at level 12 my fist damage is 2d6)
Yeah, it was someone telling me that a Strength build monk with a weapon is superior due to power attack and 1.5x strength that I was responding to.
We could do STR vs DEX unarmed monk builds, but the difference should be relatively minor. My own calculations show that the STR build benefits from a +1 attack bonus while the DEX build is several points of AC higher. A reasonable tradoff.
Oh, and an unarmed monk's damage at level 12 is 2d8 (due to Monk's Robes). :)
So I just put this together and I'm wondering why I've never seen this build.
So the Unchained monk gains proficiency with ALL monk weapons, and their flurry just gives them a free attack. Unlike normal monk flurry (or brawler flurry), it makes no mention of limits for two-handing weapons.
So why aren't strength based monks flurrying with the sansetsukon? Can wild it two handed (presumably by whiling it around your body) can flurry, does 1d10 damage off the bat. . . It also is cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists and frees up your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor.
I mean, flurry power attack+strx1.5 damage, I'm not seeing a downside here?
Most of my reasons for not doing this build have been said, but I'll add a couple things.
The new Waveblade might contest this, as it is a light 18-20/x2 monk (quality) weapon, which cannot be two-handed but works better for crit fishing. Whether or not the extra crits outweigh the extra damage is debatable, but I would imagine with a bit of investment it would at least break even.
Also, Unarmed Strikes on monks are fairly popular in my area for versatility. They can do lethal or nonlethal for free, can possibly debuff enemies with a variety of feats (stunning fist being the most prominent), work with more style feats, cannot be dropped, disarmed, taken, sundered, and can get more extra attacks than other weapons. That last point refers to Medusa's Wrath (10th level bonus feat) ki points for free attacks, and Elbow Smash style strikes. Many of the UMonks I see carry a couple P/S monk weapons to deal with DR and creatures its dangerous to touch, but primarily they use unarmed strikes with the player's favorite style feats.
With an average of a +20 to hit at CR 12 no the AOOs will not be an issue
And I was under the impression we were comparing Strength monk to Dex monk not Dex monk to strength monk with sword
If it is the latter then I withdraw (at level 12 my fist damage is 2d6)Yeah, it was someone telling me that a Strength build monk with a weapon is superior due to power attack and 1.5x strength that I was responding to.
We could do STR vs DEX unarmed monk builds, but the difference should be relatively minor. My own calculations show that the STR build benefits from a +1 attack bonus while the DEX build is several points of AC higher. A reasonable tradoff.
Oh, and an unarmed monk's damage at level 12 is 2d8 (due to Monk's Robes). :)
Yeah the difference between strength and Dex builds would probably be anywhere between 1-11 damage for 1-5 AC and a couple of feats
The sansetsukon is really only useful levels 1-7
I don't know why everybody hates monks the unchained version at least is better than a fighter (without archetypes/MTT, AWT or AMT since I don't own those books)
And zen archers are awesome
Gauss, Can you post the build for that US dex monk. I'll have time later to build a weapon using str monk to compare against it. But it's difficult when I don't know any of your numbers besides AC.
Because getting 6 attacks for average of 5 damage each (I know it's higher, I'm exaggerating to show that I want numbers to compare against) isn't going to beat 4 attacks doing 20 each.
Dotting for later reference.
Class: Unchained Monk 12
Race: Garuda Aasimar (although several other races would work just as well)
Ability Scores:
Strength: 13
Dexterity: 24 (16 +2race +4enh +2level)
Constitution: 12
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 22 (15 +2race +4enh +1level)
Charisma: 7
Trait-1) Quain Martial Artist: +1 damage to unarmed strikes
Trait-2) Indomitable Faith: +1 Will saves
1) Weapon Finesse
1M) Dodge
1M) Improved Unarmed Strike
1M) Stunning Fist
2M) Combat Reflexes
3) Power Attack
6M) Mobility
5) Panther Style
7) Panther Claw
9) Lunge
10M) Medusa's Wrath (might as well)
11) Pummeling Style (to deal with creatures with DR)
Abilities progression (only abilities that need to be selected):
4) Ki Power - Qinggong Power - Barkskin
4) +1 Dexterity
5) Style Strike - Flying Kick
6) Ki Power -??
8) Ki Power - Abundant Step
8) +1 Wisdom
9) Style Strike - ??
10) Ki Power - ??
12) +1 Dexterity
12) Ki Power - ??
One Style Strike and three Ki Powers are available to be selected.
Equipment assumptions (108k available): +4 belt of Dexterity, +4 headband of Wisdom, monk’s robes, +2 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, +1 Ring of Protection, +4 Cloak of Resistance = 104k used, 4k remaining
AC: 39 (10 +4armor<mage armor> +7dex +6wis +1dodge +5natural<barkskin> +4monk +1deflection +1insight); +4 vs movement provoked AoOs <Mobility>
Attack bonus: +21 (+12bab +7dex +2enhancement) (-4 Power Attack)
Damage: 2d8+10 (+7dex +2enhancement +1trait) (+8 Power Attack)
Attack Sequence: +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 with a possible bonus attack for each of the following: +21(ki), +21(haste), +21(retaliatory strike)
Basic idea is to provoke as many AoOs (up to 6 per round) as possible due to movement and get retaliatory strikes against each while on the way to making a flurry of blows attack against a target. In a battle with 6 enemies that could theoretically result in 13attacks per round (8 on primary enemy, 1 on each of 5 other enemies) though I don't ever expect that to actually happen.
If there is a target with a lot of DR then the monk could switch to Pummeling Style.
DPR (Panther Style with Ki, haste, and retaliatory strike) vs AC 27 = 6*(0.8*19 +0.05*1*0.8*19)+(0.55*19 +0.05*1*0.55*19)+(0.3*19 +0.05*1*0.3*19) = 112.7175dpr (includes the +1 attack bonus from haste but does not include if Stunning Fist works so does not include the Medusa's Wrath attacks)
There are probably improvements that can be made here. I expect someone in most adventuring groups can supply Mage Armor although I can get that cheap enough if I need to with the remaining funds.