Suggestions for Cha based / support paladin


Advice


I'm building a character for a first time player. She is a human and Her rolling stats (after the racial bonuses) are : str 14, dex 13, con 13, int 12, wis 11, cha 18.

Normally, I would put that 18 in str and the 14 in cha, but She want to focus on cha and the paladin magical abilities.

The group consist on a dwarf invulnerable rager, an archer ranger and a melee focused druidess and her tiger companion. They are not much optimized, just capable. AS you can see there is no pressure for her to optimize her to be a beast in damage dealing since the role is well covered.

So, what to do?


Hospitaler seems like a good fit. I would also hand out plenty of healing wands since the group has no dedicated healer from what you have shown us.


Have you considered suggesting a Life Oracle instead, or perhaps a Warpriest? She could do a lot more with support if she went those routes, especially because the group doesn't look like it needs more damage dealing or tanking (the Paladin's normal roles).


A Paladin with the Oathbound archetype, who specifically follows the Oath of the People's Council might work.

The archetype trades out Smiting Evil for Bardic Performance, which should make all of the melee warriors happy.


Maybe Hospitaler and also variant multiclass to Cavalier, Order of the Star? Major fount of healing from mid levels onwards from what I recall.


@ GM rednal

Life oracle was my first thought (And when she get experience playing I actually will recommend dipping into oracle for cha bonus to armor). However, she have a joan d'arc as a model so heavy armor, full BAB and martial weapons are a must.

Also, I personally have not cared for learning the warpriest rules, so that is also a negative.

@ Ventnor

The bard performance seems intriguing. I'll tell her about it.

@ The steel refrain

Uhm, I also have never read about variant multiclass. But if it comes after the first levels, then I might have time to read about it after we start.


The Steel Refrain wrote:
Maybe Hospitaler and also variant multiclass to Cavalier, Order of the Star? Major fount of healing from mid levels onwards from what I recall.

This is what I suggest too.

Feats are simply:
Fey Foundling
Power attack
Greater Mercy
Ultimate Mercy

Your golden. I personally like the new Variant Bonds.

You could worship Shelyn and prepare good hope as a 4th level spell. Charm person and Charm Animal can also be prepared.


DM. wrote:

I'm building a character for a first time player. She is a human and Her rolling stats (after the racial bonuses) are : str 14, dex 13, con 13, int 12, wis 11, cha 18.

Normally, I would put that 18 in str and the 14 in cha, but She want to focus on cha and the paladin magical abilities.

So, what to do?

I'm going to buck other advice and say avoid Hospitaler. While it grants more healing, that healing is weaker. A normal Paladin gets full powered Channels, where as Hospitalers are 2 dice behind. Clerics can barely keep channels ahead of the damage curve, even with Phylacteries of Positive Channeling - dropping 2 dice below that means that the channel energy will be all but useless, no matter how many times per day it can be used.

Instead, take Extra Lay on Hands AND Extra Channel for two dedicated channels per day and a two more LoH that can be spent on anything. Plus Extra Mercy when an extra feat is available.

Does the player mind being a Tank? As in, Heavy armor, Armor Focus, Shield, Shield Focus, and then just ignoring AoOs because they can't hit anyway and healing in melee range. Unstoppable Tin Can Healer is a very effective build - and the character can also help out in melee easily enough just by providing others with flanks.

Or, if the player prefers lightly armored, switch that 14 to Dex and focus on being dodgy. Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting would be good for that build.

What level is the character going to be (ie, is this 1st level or what)? Aura of Justice (at 11th level) is going to be AWESOME for that melee focused party. Even if she never uses a smite herself (which I doubt will happen - smites are useful for the AC bonus alone, not to mention DR penetration), her party can still make use of them, and the higher her Cha bonus, the more beneficial the smites will be to everyone.

I have seen builds like this done often, and done well. My own fave Paladin character puts more into Cha than Str just for these reasons (although she still spends a good deal of time in melee).

Edit: Oh, and on Oracle of Life - I assume the player was given that option and chose against it. Oracles of Life are AWESOME - possibly my very favorite support build ever. However, if the player picked Paladin, I assume they had a reason why. If they just didn't know about Oracle, then yeah, you should probably mention that to them, but if they looked at both and chose Paladin, then that's great too - both methods work very well, just in different ways.


@ Zelgadas

She starts at level 2.


Martyr gives you Bardic Performance, increased range on auras and some additional save bonuses, and lets you use mercies you did choose by taking the condition yourself, which makes it the paladin support archetype in my opinion.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Martyr gives you Bardic Performance, increased range on auras and some additional save bonuses, and lets you use mercies you did choose by taking the condition yourself, which makes it the paladin support archetype in my opinion.

Take a condition on yourself or

aura of healing wrote:


, allies (including the paladin) that spend at least 1 full round inside the aura are healed an amount of damage equal to their total number of Hit Dice and may make a saving throw against any afflictions they are suffering from, such as a curse, disease, or poison.

Yeah I'll take the reroll and heal them after the fight if they fail again route.

So I'll have to disagree that Martyr is the paladin support archetype. And another point...Martyrs end up dead. It's literally in the definition of Martyr.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Martyr gives you Bardic Performance, increased range on auras and some additional save bonuses, and lets you use mercies you did choose by taking the condition yourself, which makes it the paladin support archetype in my opinion.

Or you could take the Oath of the People's Council and support your allies without mutilating yourself.


Ventnor wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Martyr gives you Bardic Performance, increased range on auras and some additional save bonuses, and lets you use mercies you did choose by taking the condition yourself, which makes it the paladin support archetype in my opinion.
Or you could take the Oath of the People's Council and support your allies without mutilating yourself.

Ergh, I can't believe they would just go and make an archetype that is just another one but better.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Martyr gives you Bardic Performance, increased range on auras and some additional save bonuses, and lets you use mercies you did choose by taking the condition yourself, which makes it the paladin support archetype in my opinion.
Or you could take the Oath of the People's Council and support your allies without mutilating yourself.
Ergh, I can't believe they would just go and make an archetype that is just another one but better.

better than ...?

Oath of vengeance paladin, with endless smites per day, is the most deadly character in the game. (inless foe isnt evil.)

my paladin archer shoot so many smite arrows, it's silly.

i flank, i heal others and i shoot when neeeded.
my mount is a bodygaurd that protect others.


i sugest you swap the 14 str and 13 con


I think I'll present the hospitaller and the oath People's Council To her and see what she like best. If she go hospitaler, I might houserule away the penalty on the channeling.


I played a straight Paladin through RotRL that was the 18 Cha / 14 Str variety and it was a lot of fun.

- I did a lot of healing through Lay on hands; the ranged lay on hands and bonus healing feats were nice
- I did a lot of debuff removal with mercies
- As an aasimar, Heavenly Radiance with Wandering Star Motes proved useful time again
- I absorbed a lot of damage through swift action self lay on hands
- When appropriate, I smited and attacked

We had a lot of damage dealers and so I made it my mission to maximize support functions first and deal damage second.


DM. wrote:
I think I'll present the hospitaller and the oath People's Council To her and see what she like best. If she go hospitaler, I might houserule away the penalty on the channeling.

You can definitely do that. The Benefit of the Archetype is that you do not waste your Lay on Hands to channel like the Normal paladins do. So you get your Channel Pool and your LoH pool for healing.

If they go with VMC Order of the star they would advance their LoH and Channels as well. It adds up pretty quick. Not to mention Smite+ Challenge makes them very combat ready if they needed it. Lastly, Tactician is a nice support ability. Giving allies a Teamwork feat to share. Shake it off, Escape Route, outflank come to mind as good group feats to have when needed.


666bender wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Martyr gives you Bardic Performance, increased range on auras and some additional save bonuses, and lets you use mercies you did choose by taking the condition yourself, which makes it the paladin support archetype in my opinion.
Or you could take the Oath of the People's Council and support your allies without mutilating yourself.
Ergh, I can't believe they would just go and make an archetype that is just another one but better.

better than ...?

Oath of vengeance paladin, with endless smites per day, is the most deadly character in the game. (inless foe isnt evil.)

my paladin archer shoot so many smite arrows, it's silly.

i flank, i heal others and i shoot when neeeded.
my mount is a bodygaurd that protect others.

Oath of the People's Council Archetype and the Martyr archetype both trade out the paladin's Smite Evil feature for the Bardic Performance feature.

Martyrs have to stab themselves to use their Bardic Performance. Paladins who swear the Oath of the People's Council do not need to mutilate themselves to use Bardic Performance.

Hence, Oath of the People's Council is objectively better than the Martyr archetype.

Liberty's Edge

DM. wrote:

I'm building a character for a first time player. She is a human and Her rolling stats (after the racial bonuses) are : str 14, dex 13, con 13, int 12, wis 11, cha 18.

Normally, I would put that 18 in str and the 14 in cha, but She want to focus on cha and the paladin magical abilities.

Try 15,14,14,14,12,07 as your starting 20pt array, which in a human resolves to:

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:07 (Wisdom is a paladin's dump stat; sack it hard.)
CHA+17

Sovereign Court

Ventnor wrote:

Oath of the People's Council Archetype and the Martyr archetype both trade out the paladin's Smite Evil feature for the Bardic Performance feature.

Martyrs have to stab themselves to use their Bardic Performance. Paladins who swear the Oath of the People's Council do not need to mutilate themselves to use Bardic Performance.

Hence, Oath of the People's Council is objectively better than the Martyr archetype.

My, that is a lot of hate for the martyr archetype :P

Martyr is really neat, imo. It stood out to me when HA was released and I made one for PFS once it was legal. Been working out really well so far!

1 point of bleed damage per turn hasn't been anything to worry about. My character has always had more blood than rounds of bard song. Still, I see where you're coming from - I don't like the flavor of stigmata much myself. I tend to describe the effect as burning from the inside with a little too much holy power, with bleeding from the eyes as a secondary effect.

As for which archetype is better, I'd say it depends on how much you want to commit to supporting the party. The Martyr's extra 10 feet on auras makes them much more dependable, ranged lay on hands is extremely useful, and the ability to remove virtually any level-appropriate debuff in a pinch (also at range) has saved the party more than once. When necessary, I've been a successful dedicated healer with that archetype.

Oath of People's Council is great for getting party buffs without giving up the trademark paladin neigh-invulnerability. Martyr gives up some survivability for a little more versatility and some nifty panic buttons. Both are very good at what they do.

My recommendation for a support-y paladin:

Archetype: Martyr or People's Council, depending on preference.
Deity: Iomedae
Divine Bond: Get a mount to help your mobility; you're double gimped by heavy armor and bardic performance.
Feats/Mercies: Replace your 9th-level mercy with the greater version of Iomedae's Divine Fighting Technique. It's the Bee's Knees! Get Lingering Performance ofc, Mounted Combat wouldn't be a bad idea. Take whatever other combat/lay-on-hands feats you want, but keep in mind you need to land attacks with a longsword to activate your fighting style.
Strategy: Stack Good Hope (Iomedae gets all the cool toys, doesn't she?), Inspire Courage, and Inspiring Sword for hilarious effect. As long as you got an extend rod, have a mount, and can hit enemies with your sword, everything will be active on the first round. At level 10, your allies will have +6 to Attacks and +4 to Damage, Saves, and Skills! If you went Martyr, you heal a little better than an unspecialized Cleric, whereas if you went People's Council there's virtually no way to shut up your incessant singing. Your buffs still work on yourself, so you're no slouch in melee combat despite your lack of smite. Best of all, you can constantly spout sanctimonious crap about the glory of Iomedae giving the party strength and no-one will do anything about it because it works!


Oracle s don t have to be life to be great supporters. Most of their Mysteries are actualy pretty frontline focused. Battle or iron give you easy access to heavy armor and better weapons. I would suggest making a spirit guide archetype to expand the spell selection and make her really versatile on a day to day basis. If she feels the group needs more heals she can take life from the shaman side and will receive channel at lvl 7. If she wants to blast one morning, she can wake up and pick up flames or if she wants to be more frontline battle has some really good hexes. She would loose alot of revelations, but those you can pick up with extra revelation or even items later on.
Oracle is a really flavourfull class with alot of open doors for roleplaying. It won t be as good a frontliner as a paladin but it will certainly make for a better support class

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