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feats you think are seriously underrated


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

101 to 137 of 137 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Quick Draw and Improved Initiative (+ Reactionary or similar trait)

Sometimes you get stuck in situations where you can't have your weapon drawn; quick draw allows you to make a charge during a surprise round or a full-attack in the first round. Improved initiative allows you to go at or near the top of the order more often.


n00bxqb wrote:

Quick Draw and Improved Initiative (+ Reactionary or similar trait)

Sometimes you get stuck in situations where you can't have your weapon drawn; quick draw allows you to make a charge during a surprise round or a full-attack in the first round. Improved initiative allows you to go at or near the top of the order more often.

Improved Initiative is certainly not underrated, it is one of the most used feat especially for caster builds. Quick Draw isn't that useful unless you're using a throwing build, since you can draw a weapon as a part of a move if you have BAB +1.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

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.
.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Level∙∙∙∙∙∙∙Base Damage∙∙∙∙∙∙Enlarged Damage

1∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d8
6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d6
6+VS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙4d6
12∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙1d10∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d8
12+IVS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙3d10∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙6d8
15∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙3d6
15+GVS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙8d6∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙12d6
20∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙2d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙3d8
20+GVS∙∙∙∙∙∙∙8d8∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙∙12d8

(Note: Formatting tables on these messageboards is a real pain.)

Holy crap that's impressive!


Yes it is. Ravingdork, have you taken that concept and cranked it to 11 on a character yet? ;)

'cause one of the advanced weapon training options does the same thing for one weapon ...


The Mad Comrade wrote:

Yes it is. Ravingdork, have you taken that concept and cranked it to 11 on a character yet? ;)

'cause one of the advanced weapon training options does the same thing for one weapon ...

Fighter with a staff and Shillelagh oil does that even better. Wand Enlarge Person. Take Ascetic Style and you can enchant through amulet of mighty fist. Then toss Warrior Spirit on top for Bane and it is a beast.

28d6 + weapon enchantments, etc...

Shadow Lodge

I find that Vital Strike doesn't come up as often as I assume it would. Its occasionally nice, but in all honesty, for the majority of characters that I have wanted it on, I would rather it double the Str and static damage rather than the weapon's damage. I have considered retraining out of it a few times as it just does not come up as much as I would have thought. YMMV

For instance, using a longsword that normall deals 1d8+5

1d8+10 (11-18) or (17-31 on x2 crit)
rather than
2d8+5 (7-21) or (13-34 on x2 crit)

Generally its the weapons base damage that is the less important factor, and I would rather up the minimum damage than the max, personally. However, VS short changes most of the other important facters, only counting extra damage from Inspire Courage, Rage, Divine Favor, Sneak Attack, etc once rather than twice.

So that same Longsword with a +1d6 Flaming, +1 IC, +1DF, +2 Rage, and 1d6 SA would instead look like

1d8+4d6+18 (23-50)
rather than
2d8+2d6+9 (13-37)


necromental wrote:
n00bxqb wrote:

Quick Draw and Improved Initiative (+ Reactionary or similar trait)

Sometimes you get stuck in situations where you can't have your weapon drawn; quick draw allows you to make a charge during a surprise round or a full-attack in the first round. Improved initiative allows you to go at or near the top of the order more often.

Improved Initiative is certainly not underrated, it is one of the most used feat especially for caster builds. Quick Draw isn't that useful unless you're using a throwing build, since you can draw a weapon as a part of a move if you have BAB +1.

It very specifically says under the charging rules that you can't draw a weapon on a charge if you can only take a standard action (i.e. surprise round) unless you have the Quick Draw feat. So if you don't have your weapon drawn on the surprise round, you're out of luck.

"If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn."

It's also useful if you're in melee combat and you are disarmed. Picking up your weapon provokes an attack of opportunity and costs a move action, so no full attack. Drawing a new weapon is ordinarily a move action, so no full attack. Quick drawing a weapon allows you to make a full attack with your backup weapon.

Shadow Lodge

But how often does that happen, and even so, how detrimental is it really to be basically one Move Action (at worst) behind?

I can probably think of a single handful of times that lacking Quick Draw was a noticeable hindrance, and not one of them was devastating. And a lot of the times that reducing the time to draw a weapon might be important, Quick Draw really doesn't help that much, (Bite + Grab, Grapple, picking that dropped weapon back up after being stunned, etc. . .)

I would say that the most significant general benefit is double drawing for two-weapon fighters, but the primary one is, mostly overcome by having a +1 BaB.

However, I think individual playstyle also plays a lot into this.


The best vital striker is a cave druid with strong jaw.

At level 10 the can shift into an ooze that gives a base attack of 7d8


CWheezy wrote:

The best vital striker is a cave druid with strong jaw.

At level 10 the can shift into an ooze that gives a base attack of 7d8

I feel like "a feat that can be good if you build a specific kind of character around it" isn't necessarily "Seriously underrated" unless nobody else knows about that kind of character.

The Wrath of the Righteous game I was in had one of those, and he ended up taking Mythic Vital Strike, which resulted in some truly absurd damage. The Carnivorous Crystalline Ooze isn't very mobile though.


n00bxqb wrote:

Quick Draw and Improved Initiative (+ Reactionary or similar trait)

Sometimes you get stuck in situations where you can't have your weapon drawn; quick draw allows you to make a charge during a surprise round or a full-attack in the first round. Improved initiative allows you to go at or near the top of the order more often.

Another benefit of QuickDraw is combatting DR. Eventually a +5 weapon gets most of this, but there is still DR/type or DR/glass or similar effects where your main weapon will likely never counter it. It also helps before you have +5 weapons, assuming you buy an array of appropriate weapons (cold iron, mithral/silver, etc) and it can help if you rely on greater magic weapon for enhancements (as I've known a few clerics to do so). Then again, I often delay upgrading my main weapons longer than is probably optimal so perhaps this is a matter of play style.

Another good "underrated" feat is Bludgeoner. I usually find nonlethal damage to be better than lethal whenever possible, because it still does what damage is supposed to do (remove enemies from the fight) but it also means the enemy is still alive after the fight. If you need them dead a quick coup de grace will do so, but if you need them alive and they are dead, its pretty tough to fix that.


I don't think that little known feats from splatbooks, like cut from the air, can be called underrated. They are just not well known.

Blind-fight for an underrated feat.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
The Mad Comrade wrote:

Yes it is. Ravingdork, have you taken that concept and cranked it to 11 on a character yet? ;)

'cause one of the advanced weapon training options does the same thing for one weapon ...

I was talking about the table formatting...


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Furious Focus, the Power Attack line, Furious Finish (especially when combined with the right wild shape).

While I have never used Furious Finish, I do want to jump in and +1 Furious Focus and the Power Attack line.

I have never understood why people didn't like them. Greatsword + Power Attack + Furious Focus is a no-cost +3 to damage at 1st level (assuming you also have a +1 Bab and two first-level feats, obviously) which improves to a no-cost +6 to damage at 4th level. At 6th level (or +6 bab for non-d10 classes), you have to start paying for iterative attacks, but your first attack is still golden.


Zelgadas Greyward wrote:

While I have never used Furious Finish, I do want to jump in and +1 Furious Focus and the Power Attack line.

I have never understood why people didn't like them.

Power Attack isn't exactly underrated. Most two-handed-weapon melee guys take it. (While complaining, "This should be a free ability!")

As for Furious Focus, it's not exactly bad, but:

At level 1 to 3, you're probably better off with Weapon Focus, which gives you the same attack bonus whether you're power attacking or not, and will also help on future iteratives.

At high level, it gives you a bonus to hit on just one of your many attacks, and if you're an optimised martial you're probably hitting with that attack anyway.

(Also, it's a boring "bonus to a number" feat rather than a "can do something new" feat.)


WF lockdown you to an specific weapon, though.

Silver Crusade

Ludovicus wrote:

I'm sure this question has come up before, but I haven't seen a version of it in a while, so: what are some feats you think are seriously underrated? For instance, ones that you don't see all that much, but you think most characters should seriously consider?

I dig Steadfast Slayer. It makes small melee characters a lot more worthwhile.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Look Ma, no dots!

 

 

 

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Level       Base Damage      Enlarged Damage

1                 1d6                      1d8
6                 1d8                      2d6
6+VS           2d8                      4d6
12               1d10                    2d8
12+IVS        3d10                    6d8
15               2d6                      3d6
15+GVS       8d6                    12d6
20               2d8                      3d8
20+GVS       8d8                    12d8

The spell to make this magic happen is ALT+0160 on your keyboard's number pad (in Windows - not sure about Mac). Pressing this sequence will insert what is known as a "Non-breaking space". Web browsers honor these, so if you have a regular space and five non-breaking spaces in a row, you get six actual spaces displayed rather than having them collapse into one, as it normally does.

As

 
 for

 

  vertical

 

   spacing,

 

... a line with one non-breaking space technically counts as a paragraph unto itself, and is not trimmed or collapsed.

Copying and pasting non-breaking spaces may vary from browser to browser. I think Firefox converts a copied NBSP into a regular space. So when I need to fiddle with these things, I do it in Notepad++.

And all of this rigmarole would be completely unnecessary if Paizo's forums supported a [pre] code for preformatted text.

Silver Crusade

Tiefling Commoner wrote:
Ludovicus wrote:

I'm sure this question has come up before, but I haven't seen a version of it in a while, so: what are some feats you think are seriously underrated? For instance, ones that you don't see all that much, but you think most characters should seriously consider?

I dig Steadfast Slayer. It makes small melee characters a lot more worthwhile.

I don't have that book, so I've never seen that one. I will definitely consider it for my Grippli Fiend Keeper Medium, who specializes in front lining with the Champion spirit.


Tinalles wrote:

Look Ma, no dots!

 

 

 

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Level       Base Damage      Enlarged Damage

1                 1d6                      1d8
6                 1d8                      2d6
6+VS           2d8                      4d6
12               1d10                    2d8
12+IVS        3d10                    6d8
15               2d6                      3d6
15+GVS       8d6                    12d6
20               2d8                      3d8
20+GVS       8d8                    12d8

The spell to make this magic happen is ALT+0160 on your keyboard's number pad (in Windows - not sure about Mac). Pressing this sequence will insert what is known as a "Non-breaking space". Web browsers honor these, so if you have a regular space and five non-breaking spaces in a row, you get six actual spaces displayed rather than having them collapse into one, as it normally does.

As

 
 for

 

  vertical

 

   spacing,

 

... a line with one non-breaking space technically counts as a paragraph unto itself, and is not trimmed or collapsed.

Copying and pasting non-breaking spaces may vary from browser to browser. I think Firefox converts a copied NBSP into a regular space. So when I need to fiddle with these things, I do it in Notepad++.

And all of this rigmarole would be completely unnecessary if Paizo's forums supported a [pre] code for preformatted text.

NNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRDDDDDDD!

Seriously though, awesome stuff. I never use those number pad codes, that's way too much effort. Kudos.


Tinalles wrote:

Look Ma, no dots!

{. . .}

Thanks for the tip.        Option-Space on a Mac for non-breaking space there (now that I know what to look for, it's easier to get than the small dot I had to look for).

 
 
 
Tinalles wrote:
And all of this rigmarole would be completely unnecessary if Paizo's forums supported a [pre] code for preformatted text.

+1 on that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
WF lockdown you to an specific weapon, though.

It doesn't have to. Take a single level of aquanaut: taking weapon focus nets you 65+ weapons it works for; make it an elf and you get 3 more; have natural weapons and you get claws and bite.


I feel like there are a lot of tables where being restricted to a single weapon is no big deal. The GM's going to make sure you can find or buy the stuff you can use. If you're in one of those sorts of games, then weapon focus (also [foo] grace, improved critical, tons of other feats) are fine things to take.

If you absolutely have no control over what you can find, a lot of basic assumptions about the game go out the window. So don't play a swashbuckler, or a warpriest, or anybody else who tends to lock themselves into a single weapon type.

But I don't think many people play like that do they?


PossibleCabbage wrote:


But I don't think many people play like that do they?

Since nobody have done an exhaustive statistical analysis, who knows. Lately, As a DM I'm liking random treasure and not caring about WBL and the like. But, to compensate, I also allow things like weapon focus and fencing grace to work with the whole fighter group instead of just one weapon.


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I feel like sometimes the fantasy of a a character depends a lot on the mental image a player has about their character with a specific weapon. So if you imagine your Dwarf using a long-handled hammer to whomp people with, then letting their Dwarven Longhammer feats apply to everything else in the hammers weapon group may do a disservice to that character if they never can get their hands on any longhammers. Even without Bladed Brush, "I want to fight with a slender graceful glaive" isn't a fantasy served by substituting a lucerne hammer or a bardiche instead.

This is one of the reasons I like Automatic Bonus progression too; if you're invested in a specific weapon, you just need one of them and its enhancements will keep pace with the math of the game.

Grand Lodge

I have yet to see another caster take Reach Spell, but it's been a godsend (Sarenrae, in this case) on my oracle. Usually, I use it to turn touch spells into short-range spells, either so I can save someone's life with a Heal or Breath of Life from across the room or so I can use a debuff like Bestow Curse without having to get into melee.


graystone wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
WF lockdown you to an specific weapon, though.
It doesn't have to. Take a single level of aquanaut: taking weapon focus nets you 65+ weapons it works for; make it an elf and you get 3 more; have natural weapons and you get claws and bite.

can you link that?


Lady-J wrote:
can you link that?

Here you go.

Piercing Focus: If an aquanaut takes a fighter bonus feat that normally requires selecting a single weapon (except weapon proficiency feats), he can instead apply the feat to all melee piercing weapons with which he is already proficient and that meet all other prerequisites for that feat. This ability counts as having the feat for each such individual weapon for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. This ability also applies to the weapon mastery class feature.

This alters bonus feats and weapon mastery.


dang piercing weapons only


Matthew Downie wrote:
Zelgadas Greyward wrote:

While I have never used Furious Finish, I do want to jump in and +1 Furious Focus and the Power Attack line.

I have never understood why people didn't like them.

Power Attack isn't exactly underrated. Most two-handed-weapon melee guys take it. (While complaining, "This should be a free ability!")

As for Furious Focus, it's not exactly bad, but:

At level 1 to 3, you're probably better off with Weapon Focus, which gives you the same attack bonus whether you're power attacking or not, and will also help on future iteratives.

At high level, it gives you a bonus to hit on just one of your many attacks, and if you're an optimised martial you're probably hitting with that attack anyway.

(Also, it's a boring "bonus to a number" feat rather than a "can do something new" feat.)

When I play a Fighter I sometimes like to take Furious Focus as my bonus feat at first level, then swap it out for another feat at level 8 or 12 when it stops being particularly useful.

Toughness is another good feat to do this with, 3 extra HP at level 1 to help you survive, then swap it out for whatever at 4 when you have better armor and more HP from hit dice.


Eh that is to "gamey" for me.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Eh that is to "gamey" for me.

I mean, I feel like it's the entire point of the class feature. Of course I just remembered that you can't actually do that with Toughness, as it's not a combat feat.


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I got nothing against it I just wouldn't do it, and actually now that you take toughness out of it it bothers me even less.

Edit: yeah with toughness I was like hmm so ill train to be tough until i don't need to be tough anymore then ill unlearn being tough. it was bugging me for some reason.


wait toughness isn't a combat feat? its whole job is to make you less squishy in combat how is it not a combat feat


I can see it myself. You could probably argue the value of a lot of feats to be combat feats skill focus: bluff (for feint) for example.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
icehawk333 wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
I've always thought that the combination of Performing Combatant (to allow performance feats to be used in any combat) and Mocking Dance was absurdly powerful for a ranged attack character. Essentially it allows full attack along with one or more full moves nearly every round.
Only if you can pass that ubsrudly diffcult preformance combat check reliably.

???

1: DC 10 means a 55% chance of success even if you somehow have NO bonus (i.e. BAB 0, no perform skill ranks, no Cha bonus, no +2 from performance feat, no +2 from performance weapon, etc).
2: You get the movement regardless of whether the performance combat check succeeds or not.


CBDunkerson wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
I've always thought that the combination of Performing Combatant (to allow performance feats to be used in any combat) and Mocking Dance was absurdly powerful for a ranged attack character. Essentially it allows full attack along with one or more full moves nearly every round.
Only if you can pass that ubsrudly diffcult preformance combat check reliably.

???

1: DC 10 means a 55% chance of success even if you somehow have NO bonus (i.e. BAB 0, no perform skill ranks, no Cha bonus, no +2 from performance feat, no +2 from performance weapon, etc).
2: You get the movement regardless of whether the performance combat check succeeds or not.

Check Performing Combatant - it's always a DC20 check when not in a formal performance combat.

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