Making a Goblin Alchemist OP


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Wanted to make a Goblin Alchemist who would be riding a mount to do hit an run tactics. I am not sure what the mount is going to be yet, don't know if I want a flying mount or a fast ground mount.

I wanted him to either throw a bomb attached to a spear. Thinking that I could get both spear dmg and bomb dmg.

Or throw a spear syringe with a poison cotangent in it infused with a bomb for dmg. (would vital strike work with this, being added to the spear dmg?)

His stats are
Str: 16
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

I was wondering can vital strike be used with an alchemist bomb in anyway?


There is a goblins alchemist archetype that gives you a giant buzzard mount so you can air bomb things.

Sovereign Court

Bombs (Su) wrote:
The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).

You can use Vital Strike with bombs, but it only adds 1d6.

Sovereign Court

Also, those stats are absurd. That's a 64 point buy.

Liberty's Edge

Illeist wrote:
Also, those stats are absurd. That's a 64 point buy.

we do a role system, role 4d6 and pick the top 3 dice. Role seven times and take the highest numbers.


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Horas Ebonfeather wrote:
Wanted to make a Goblin Alchemist who would be riding a mount to do hit an run tactics. I am not sure what the mount is going to be yet, don't know if I want a flying mount or a fast ground mount.

The Winged Marauder gives you a flying mount animal companion for what amounts to very little. Mutagen is a discovery away and the loss of Persistent Mutagen is not a huge deal. And early flight is just so exceedingly good.

Horas Ebonfeather wrote:
I wanted him to either throw a bomb attached to a spear. Thinking that I could get both spear dmg and bomb dmg.

The Explosive Missile discovery does almost exactly what you want. You're trading off the biggest advantage of bombs which is that it goes against touch AC, but do tons of damage at high range. However, it only works with ammunition, not spears.

Horas Ebonfeather wrote:
Or throw a spear syringe with a poison cotangent in it infused with a bomb for dmg.

You can blow a lot of feats and discoveries on being the best at poison and poison is still going to suck a whole lot. Poison is expensive, the save DCs are low and a ton of opponents are going to be immune against it anyway. Do not go for poison.

Instead, you can go for throwing out loads of very good and powerful bombs. Another thing that makes Winged Marauder quite good is that you can take both it and the Grenadier archetype at the same time who is extremely good with bombs. You can get, say, longbow proficiency for free (with your high strength, you could even go for composite bow) and infuse your arrows with acid, alchemist's fire or even both. Burst Jar is also nice. Gets really great at level 7. Also works with spears, but only with normal alchemical weapons, not with bombs. Still fits the general idea, I'd say.


First off, yes, those stats are absurd.

That aside, I just finished playing a Winged Marauder/Grenadier alchemist in Iron Gods and had an absolute blast, though I'm not sure whether I'd call him "OP". He was extremely fun and flavorful, though.

If you haven't yet, required reading would be N.Jolly's Alchemist Guide. That *should* have enough information to really get your motor going.

Personally, I'd go with the aforementioned Winged Marauder/Grenadier with a Composite Longbow for my martial weapon proficiency, go the Explosive Missile Discovery route, deliver my alchemical weapon/explosive missile wombo-combo with tangleshot arrows, have a nice selection of bomb energy types, and eventually pick up a Conductive bow and Cognatogen while using Targeted Bomb Admixture to deliver 5x my Int mod with every shot on top of lots and lots of dice and debuffs.

So... basically, I'd do exactly what I did before.

It was fun, effective, and powerful.

But it's FAR from the most optimized thing you could be doing.

Honestly, with those stats, you could also make a case for multiclassing into Feral Gnasher barbarian and just destroying everything with mutagen. Or maybe make a switch-hitter? Heck, those stats are so insane, I don't even know what build direction to take with them.


How did you get 5x INT?


_Ozy_ wrote:
How did you get 5x INT?

Well, let's see...

Normal bomb gives you your Int bonus once. Explosive Missile allows you to essentially strap that bomb to your arrow, so that's a full bomb damage.
Targeted Bomb Admixture gives you your Int bonus again.
Conductive bow allows you to activate another bomb if you hit with the arrow, so that's another full bomb damage, including your Int bonus. However, Targeted Bomb Admixture should work for this bomb, too, giving you your Int bonus again.
And then, you can also add, say, Acid to your arrow with Alchemical Weapon for another 1d6+Int.

Of course, this is extremely wasteful. That's 3 bombs and an alchemical weapon, but let's say you're level 9. Then, you're doing 11d6+5*Int of energy damage with one shot which is pretty disgusting. That's in three attacks, technically (bomb from Explosive Missile, bomb from Conductive bow, acid from Alchemical Weapon), so energy resistance could reduce that quite a bit, but the general idea is sound.
On the other hand, having this many separate attacks means potentially many saves and debuffs. For example, if your Explosive Missile bomb is a Blinding Bomb, your Conductive bow bomb is a Tanglefoot Bomb and your Alchemical Weapon is a Burst Jar, that could leave them blinded, deaf and entangled which is neat.

Here's another thought: If you use the Hybridization Funnel, allowing you to combine, say, Alchemist's Fire and Acid, does the resulting mixture only do your Int damage once or twice? After all, an attack with either Alchemist's Fire or Acid would add your Int bonus to damage and if you hit an enemy with the mixture, they "are affected as if hit by both".
So, if you ruled that hybridized mixtures would add your Int bonus to damage twice, you could get up to 12d6+6*Int damage on level 9 which is ridiculous.

And then, of course, you get Sticky Bomb at level 10 and all hell breaks loose.


Ah, explosive missile was the discovery I was missing then. Looks good to me. I probably wouldn't let double INT fly on a hybridized alchemist weapon, it's still a single splash weapon attack.

Also, if you're doing a Force bomb, or Holy bomb against evil, energy resistance isn't going to help much, though it could against the normal alchemist weapon attack. With Cognatogen you can get your INT damage up around +10 - +13 or so at medium to higher levels, so x5 is nothing to sneeze at indeed.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Also, if you're doing a Force bomb, or Holy bomb against evil, energy resistance isn't going to help much, though it could against the normal alchemist weapon attack.

Yeah, Force Bomb is fantastic, but you're seriously reducing your damage. Generally, Holy Bombs are too situational for my liking, but can be great depending on the campaign. Unfortunately, they come online at the same time as many great discoveries (level 8), so the choice is tough. If the choice is between Force and Holy bombs, definitely go for Force because of incorporeal creatures.

Oh, and if you're going for Cognatogen, then you absolutely want a normal Longbow rather than a composite one, for obvious reasons. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Cognatogen because that basically locks in Lesser Restoration as a must-prepare and can leave you unable to carry your stuff. With a Strength score of 16, you probably don't need to worry about that, though. I do love Mutagen to give you a sizable boost to your HP in exchange for the king of all dump stats, though.


Nixitur wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How did you get 5x INT?

Well, let's see...

Normal bomb gives you your Int bonus once. Explosive Missile allows you to essentially strap that bomb to your arrow, so that's a full bomb damage.
Targeted Bomb Admixture gives you your Int bonus again.
Conductive bow allows you to activate another bomb if you hit with the arrow, so that's another full bomb damage, including your Int bonus. However, Targeted Bomb Admixture should work for this bomb, too, giving you your Int bonus again.
And then, you can also add, say, Acid to your arrow with Alchemical Weapon for another 1d6+Int.

Of course, this is extremely wasteful. That's 3 bombs and an alchemical weapon, but let's say you're level 9. Then, you're doing 11d6+5*Int of energy damage with one shot which is pretty disgusting. That's in three attacks, technically (bomb from Explosive Missile, bomb from Conductive bow, acid from Alchemical Weapon), so energy resistance could reduce that quite a bit, but the general idea is sound.
On the other hand, having this many separate attacks means potentially many saves and debuffs. For example, if your Explosive Missile bomb is a Blinding Bomb, your Conductive bow bomb is a Tanglefoot Bomb and your Alchemical Weapon is a Burst Jar, that could leave them blinded, deaf and entangled which is neat.

Here's another thought: If you use the Hybridization Funnel, allowing you to combine, say, Alchemist's Fire and Acid, does the resulting mixture only do your Int damage once or twice? After all, an attack with either Alchemist's Fire or Acid would add your Int bonus to damage and if you hit an enemy with the mixture, they "are affected as if hit by both".
So, if you ruled that hybridized mixtures would add your Int bonus to damage twice, you could get up to 12d6+6*Int damage on level 9 which is ridiculous.

And then, of course, you get Sticky Bomb at level 10 and all hell breaks loose.

Nailed it. And the resulting mixture from a hybridization funnel only gets your Int mod once, since it's still only a single new substance.

As you pointed out, it's... it's okay. It's not bad, it has it's flaws, it's pretty resource intensive. It's putting everything you have into a single shot (though you don't have to pop conductive until you know whether or not it hits, so that's helpful.)

It's kinda' like Vital Strike on steroids.

It's just one big badda-boom.


Don't forget about the Feat Burn! Burn! Burn!

Also, how about Goblin Gunslinger? Explosive Missile works with musket balls just as well as it works with arrows!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Also, how about Goblin Gunslinger? Explosive Missile works with musket balls just as well as it works with arrows!

I dunno about multi-classing on a bomb-focused Alchemist. They get new toys every two levels and they absolutely need those toys as a variety of bombs and making those bombs more powerful is the key to success.

Although I suppose instead of dipping into Gunslinger, you could just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) and be on your way. Although to be effective, you would also need Gunsmithing. So, either a two feat investment or a level dip, neither of which sound appealing, especially since you get a single Martial Weapon Proficiency for free with the Grenadier.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Don't forget about the Feat Burn! Burn! Burn!

Does that actually work with bombs? It specifically "does not apply to magical attacks or to splash damage" and bombs are certainly magical, being a Supernatural ability. And even if it did work, that's a meager 1d4 points of damage only on fire attacks and only on the primary target. It's certainly flavorful, but there's so much more powerful things you can get as a bomber for a feat.


Nixitur wrote:
[Burn! Burn! Burn!] Does that actually work with bombs?

No, but it does work with Alchemist Fire and Lamp Oil.

Nixitur wrote:
Instead, you can go for throwing out loads of very good and powerful bombs. Another thing that makes Winged Marauder quite good is that you can take both it and the Grenadier archetype at the same time who is extremely good with bombs.

Level 2 Grenadiers can attach Alchemal Weapons to their missile Weapons.

Alchemical Weapon (Su) wrote:
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action.

So you could use Alchemal Weapon as a Move Action and Explosive Missile as a Standard Action to attach both an Alchemal Bomb and a flask of Alchemist Fire or Lamp Oil to your arrow or musket ball, and with Burn! Burn! Burn! they will do yet another 1d4.

Since this kind of attack does starkly limit you to 1 attack/round, using with a Gun instead of with an arrow actually makes sense since Guns have a limited rate of fire, too. Also, at short range, guns make Ranged Touch Attacks.


If you want to take advantage of your goblin's massive Stealth bonus, use a bow. If you don't care about that, go for the musket.


The Mad Comrade wrote:
If you want to take advantage of your goblin's massive Stealth bonus, use a bow. If you don't care about that, go for the musket.

Stealth bonus? Like for Sneak Attack Damage? Then he should dip into Rogue and Ninja and take the Vivisectionist Archetype. If he takes the False Attacker Rogue Talent, he gets to make a Bluff Check as an immediate Action with his attacks, and if he makes it, his opponents think someone else attacked them, and the Goblin keeps stealth.

Liberty's Edge

_Ozy_ wrote:

Ah, explosive missile was the discovery I was missing then. Looks good to me. I probably wouldn't let double INT fly on a hybridized alchemist weapon, it's still a single splash weapon attack.

Also, if you're doing a Force bomb, or Holy bomb against evil, energy resistance isn't going to help much, though it could against the normal alchemist weapon attack. With Cognatogen you can get your INT damage up around +10 - +13 or so at medium to higher levels, so x5 is nothing to sneeze at indeed.

Would u consider taking a couple levels in magus to imbue your bombs with more potency? Or is that going to hurt your BAB to much.

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