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How do you think certain deities got demoted?


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Another point that occurred to me is that Mystics as described in the core rulebook might gain spells from their beliefs rather than from the objective existence or approval of a deity. In that situation, there could be considerable uncertainty as to the actual statuses of most of the deities.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Modules Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Most of the missing Gods were tied to Golarion or a certain race. Torag was tied to Dwarfs and Calistria tied to elves, now on the galactic scale these 2 races are much more of a minor presence so the presence of their gods is also more minor.

Nethys, Irori, Cayden Cailean, and Norgorber, we all mortals from Golarion that arose to godhood, it makes sense that their pressence is minor if at all in the greater universe. Even Rovagug was caged to Golarion, its possible the greater universe doesn't even know he exist, and that he was only a "major" deity on Golarion cause he physically was there and influenced events now and then in his imprisonment. (While he could easily be the same thing as the Devourer, it is also equally possible he was the spawn of the Devourer.)

Iomedae survived as a major deity only because she became a deity of humanity, and where they went they took her with them.

The other deities I got no clue, maybe some died during the hypothetical Rovagug break out scenario.


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Delightful wrote:


Nethys blow himself up.

While I might of done that, it would have been with better grammar. Also probably a way to bring myself back. Unless I am not whom I am. Actually, that might be fun. I should work on not being myself. I should make a copy of myself though to be the control group.


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Nethys, "Elder God" wrote:
Delightful wrote:


Nethys blow himself up.
While I might of done that, it would have been with better grammar. Also probably a way to bring myself back. Unless I am not whom I am. Actually, that might be fun. I should work on not being myself. I should make a copy of myself though to be the control group.

It's delightfully ironic how you complained about their grammar while making a mistake yourself. (It's "might have", not "might of")


Yes, yes it is. Maybe thats' why I did it. Or my copy. One of the above.

Whoops


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Rothlis wrote:

Willing to bet rovagug and the devoured are 1 and the same

Asmodeus probably depending on circumstances might have relinquished his godhood provided the deal was right

Hmm... Rovagug was actually a Spawn of the Devourer?

Or they did a Dragon Ball on Rovvie, when the new BBEG showed up they had an epic scene where Rovagug broke free and used its ultimate move on the Devourer only to see it bounce off the new baddie and then Rovagug was utterly destroyed by a flurry of black hole throwing stars followed by a lot of maniacal laughing, now the PCs only have 22 APs left to power up and take out Devourer before the next edition introduces the Devourer's father! Also, 2/3rds of all AP books will be recaps of the last book and a preview of the following one.

It will be fine. The PCs just need to achieve their ultimate transformation, Super Murder Hobo 3.

If I've learned anything from Dragon Ball/Z/Super, it's that there is no ultimate transformation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

WTF (Want To Follow) Deity of ART! Pls send pm!

*coughs* Sorry. Just not seeing a lot of 'art/creativity' type things there, and it's kinda bringing down my hype level?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Starfinder is a little more STEM-focussed, but that doesn't mean the arts will be neglected.


Distant Scholar wrote:
Jokey the Unfunny Comedian wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Rothlis wrote:

Willing to bet rovagug and the devoured are 1 and the same

Asmodeus probably depending on circumstances might have relinquished his godhood provided the deal was right

Hmm... Rovagug was actually a Spawn of the Devourer?

Or they did a Dragon Ball on Rovvie, when the new BBEG showed up they had an epic scene where Rovagug broke free and used its ultimate move on the Devourer only to see it bounce off the new baddie and then Rovagug was utterly destroyed by a flurry of black hole throwing stars followed by a lot of maniacal laughing, now the PCs only have 22 APs left to power up and take out Devourer before the next edition introduces the Devourer's father! Also, 2/3rds of all AP books will be recaps of the last book and a preview of the following one.

It will be fine. The PCs just need to achieve their ultimate transformation, Super Murder Hobo 3.
If I've learned anything from Dragon Ball/Z/Super, it's that there is no ultimate transformation.

Of course, sorry, what was I thinking!

I meant Super Murder Hobo God Murder Hobo.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


WTF (Want To Follow) Deity of ART! Pls send pm!

*coughs* Sorry. Just not seeing a lot of 'art/creativity' type things there, and it's kinda bringing down my hype level?

Just because the hot 20 in the galaxy are not art oriented does not mean that the are no arts deities.

There has to be a LOT of new 'lower' deities floating around the cosmos now with all the space faring races and cultures the Golarions are running into.

For all we know Shelyn could be in the top 50 still. Or the art/beauty deites of 15 worlds could all be in the top 50 still.

The top 20 are just that. The top. Not the ONLY.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gilfalas wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


WTF (Want To Follow) Deity of ART! Pls send pm!

*coughs* Sorry. Just not seeing a lot of 'art/creativity' type things there, and it's kinda bringing down my hype level?

Just because the hot 20 in the galaxy are not art oriented does not mean that the are no arts deities.

There has to be a LOT of new 'lower' deities floating around the cosmos now with all the space faring races and cultures the Golarions are running into.

For all we know Shelyn could be in the top 50 still. Or the art/beauty deites of 15 worlds could all be in the top 50 still.

The top 20 are just that. The top. Not the ONLY.

However, if, for the sake of example one were to play an Organized campaign, and the top 20 are the only legitimate deities for said campaign...

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


WTF (Want To Follow) Deity of ART! Pls send pm!

*coughs* Sorry. Just not seeing a lot of 'art/creativity' type things there, and it's kinda bringing down my hype level?

Zon Kuthon is in the core 20... Joymaking is a beautiful art.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
However, if, for the sake of example one were to play an Organized campaign, and the top 20 are the only legitimate deities for said campaign...

So far in PFS, as far as I have seen, they have not limited the deities to the top 20. I would not see why they would do so with SFS.


Not necessarily a demotion, as the Dragon gods were never in the Core 20, but something occurred to me: Apsu and Dahak are both written as being kind of distant and not having a lot of interaction with other deities, nor many mortals followers outside of dragons. But there's supposed to be a prophecy, mentioned in Inner Sea Faiths, that they would fight a final, decisive battle on Golarion at some point in the future (if Dahak's destructiveness ever threatens the bonds that hold Rovagug in place, it says in Dahak's ISF entry) . I wonder if that might be part of why it doesn't exist anymore; it was collateral damage in a clash of draconic gods.


Ouachitonian wrote:
Not necessarily a demotion, as the Dragon gods were never in the Core 20, but something occurred to me: Apsu and Dahak are both written as being kind of distant and not having a lot of interaction with other deities, nor many mortals followers outside of dragons. But there's supposed to be a prophecy, mentioned in Inner Sea Faiths, that they would fight a final, decisive battle on Golarion at some point in the future (if Dahak's destructiveness ever threatens the bonds that hold Rovagug in place, it says in Dahak's ISF entry) . I wonder if that might be part of why it doesn't exist anymore; it was collateral damage in a clash of draconic gods.

That's a distinct possibility.

There is, of course, also the possibility that the prophesied clash hasn't happened yet, and its made both father and son more than a little antsy. How are you supposed to have a climactic battle for the fate of the multiverse when you can't find the battlefield?


Ouachitonian wrote:
I wonder if that might be part of why it doesn't exist anymore; it was collateral damage in a clash of draconic gods.

Remember that the gods have confirmed Golarion does still exist. It is just not where it used to be and they will say no more than that. :-)

Shadow Lodge

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Lamashtu worship died out once they started handing the monsters citizenship papers.


Ouachitonian wrote:
Not necessarily a demotion, as the Dragon gods were never in the Core 20, but something occurred to me: Apsu and Dahak are both written as being kind of distant and not having a lot of interaction with other deities, nor many mortals followers outside of dragons. But there's supposed to be a prophecy, mentioned in Inner Sea Faiths, that they would fight a final, decisive battle on Golarion at some point in the future (if Dahak's destructiveness ever threatens the bonds that hold Rovagug in place, it says in Dahak's ISF entry) . I wonder if that might be part of why it doesn't exist anymore; it was collateral damage in a clash of draconic gods.

I bet they're pretty popular on Triaxus.


Gilfalas wrote:
Ouachitonian wrote:
I wonder if that might be part of why it doesn't exist anymore; it was collateral damage in a clash of draconic gods.
Remember that the gods have confirmed Golarion does still exist. It is just not where it used to be and they will say no more than that. :-)

So Apsu relocated it to the Immortal Ambulatory? Interesting. :)


Steven "Troll" O'Neal wrote:
Ouachitonian wrote:
Not necessarily a demotion, as the Dragon gods were never in the Core 20, but something occurred to me: Apsu and Dahak are both written as being kind of distant and not having a lot of interaction with other deities, nor many mortals followers outside of dragons. But there's supposed to be a prophecy, mentioned in Inner Sea Faiths, that they would fight a final, decisive battle on Golarion at some point in the future (if Dahak's destructiveness ever threatens the bonds that hold Rovagug in place, it says in Dahak's ISF entry) . I wonder if that might be part of why it doesn't exist anymore; it was collateral damage in a clash of draconic gods.
I bet they're pretty popular on Triaxus.

Good point.

Shadow Lodge

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Cayden starting hanging out in his human avatar form, Valeros, full time.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber

i kinda like that Shelyn is gone.

makes Zon Kuthon just a tad more interesting.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I would imagine that the main reason for deities being demoted from the top 20 is "insufficient evangelism to non-human alien races".


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Yakman wrote:

i kinda like that Shelyn is gone.

makes Zon Kuthon just a tad more interesting.

Why is Zon Kuthon more interesting if his sister/counterpart is removed?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seisho wrote:
Yakman wrote:

i kinda like that Shelyn is gone.

makes Zon Kuthon just a tad more interesting.

Why is Zon Kuthon more interesting if his sister/counterpart is removed?

Perhaps he gets a new spin rather than the tragic, fallen brother of Shelyn whose efforts to redeem him will forever be in vain? Not that there's anything wrong with that. Honestly, the dynamic between those two might be one of my favorite things about Pathfinder's pantheon. Such a great story. Here's hoping Zon-Kuthon can make up for his sister's decline with an awesome, maddened reaver legion haunting the dark tapestry!

It's weird Shelyn's no longer Core, considering there's not too much in the way of an art or culture god anymore (I think Desna's going to fill those boots in my head canon by being a muse goddess of inspiration, expression and dreams), but it does potentially give her an interesting spin, trying to restore a sense of beauty and individuality in a world that seems to be in a pretty wrecked state. Her congregation will likely be smaller, secluded away in privileged or counter-cultural pockets of society, where her faithful's art spurs and gives voice to larger social movements, with little recognition. I get the feeling Shelyn will get along famously with Weydan and Hylax.


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Well Shelyn kind of gets along with everyone per definition :P
But yes I see how she will like those two.
In my games she still has a important position, no matter what

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Shelyn is still in the setting. With the exception of Rovagug and Torag, every Pathfinder deity is still in the setting. They just aren't as widely worshipped in the Pact Worlds as they were in the Inner Sea region of Old Golarion.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, it occurs to me. Since the Azlanti are still around, do they still worship the old pantheon, or have they adopted new gods, or have they cast off gods entirely in favor of something else? It would be interesting to see a sophisticated, little-changed surviving sect of Shelyn's ancient faith thriving in an empire that's a known enemy of the Pact Worlds.


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Science ascends, religion declines. Seems to be the natural order of things.


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Zhayne wrote:
Science ascends, religion declines. Seems to be the natural order of things.

The science religions seem to be doing all right.


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Zhayne wrote:
Science ascends, religion declines. Seems to be the natural order of things.

While I generally agree with this statement, I would think that in a world where angels and demons can actually be called forth into our reality and such miraculous acts as healing and raising the dead are fact for thousands of years of old history, perhaps the religions of that setting might die a little slower?

It may be easier to keep the faith if the faith is more readily proven.


I'm just going to assume that any former gods got superseded in one of three ways:

1. They traveled beyond the rim like the First Ones of B5

2. They "retired" themselves by voluntary suicide (merging with the universe like Apollo's kindred from Star Trek)

3. They decided to settle down and stay local, and some of them could had gone with Golarion wherever it went.

Wherever a bigger better god or goddess has shown up to take charge of a portfolio it's not that they forced their predecessor out of office; except for maybe Triune they've always been around, just no one from Golarion had knowledge of them till Starfinder times. Some deities have a sphere of influence that limited to a continent; others a whole planet; some multiple planets, and then there's deities like Pharasma which have achieved a monopoly and kept out all potential usurpers.


Zhayne wrote:
Science ascends, religion declines. Seems to be the natural order of things.

Less likely in a universe where the power of deities is so readily apparent. When a cleric can resurrect the dead via prayers to Sarenrae (or whoever), people aren't likely to quit believing just because they have quantum physics now.

Shadow Lodge

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Ouachitonian wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Science ascends, religion declines. Seems to be the natural order of things.
Less likely in a universe where the power of deities is so readily apparent. When a cleric can resurrect the dead via prayers to Sarenrae (or whoever), people aren't likely to quit believing just because they have quantum physics now.

Hard to say how mysterious powers of faith would bolster faith when everyone else has mysterious powers. I mean yes, the cleric can chant to her god and heal your broken arm. But so can the singer in the city tavern, that witch that lives in a hut in the woods, and the crazy old man that forecasts the weather.


Well, factions like Rahadoum that acknowledge the existence of deities but refuse to worship them are certainly more likely in a setting like Starfinder. The real-life decline of religion is one of belief, not of people who believe but refuse worship.

But the very fact that clerics, inquisitors, etc can perform miraculous deeds proves the efficacy of their faith. Sure, maybe they don't have an exclusive hold on any particular supernatural ability, but the fact that they can do things at all proves their belief to be true; the being they worship exists and grants them power.

The rise of science IRL is largely due to its reliability as a predictor of natural phenomena (compared to religious explanations) and the previously-thought-impossible things we've learned to do through science(compared to the reliability of miracles). In Pathfinder/Starfinder, deities and the like much more readily interfere in the material world, weakening (to an extent) science's reliability as an explainer of causes, and greatly strengthening religion's ability to do the same. Religion in PF/SF also provides an alternate path to things once thought impossible. Not an exclusive path, but certainly a viable one. As such, religion and science seem to be on a much more level footing in PF/SF.

Shadow Lodge

Ouachitonian wrote:
But the very fact that clerics, inquisitors, etc can perform miraculous deeds proves the efficacy of their faith. Sure, maybe they don't have an exclusive hold on any particular supernatural ability, but the fact that they can do things at all proves their belief to be true; the being they worship exists and grants them power.

It doesn't. It isn't even evidence that they're right, much less proof.

Don't get me wrong, they ARE right, But a wizard can chant some mumbo jumbo and have a fireball incinerate half of down town. A sorcerer just bluffs the universe into turning her into a dragon. In that kind of a world praying to your god and have something happen is conceivably seen as just another kind of spellcasting.


How about the fact that Aroden was walking around on Golarion for awhile. I suppose you could make the argument that's not proof because that was centuries ago and could all be made but make the same argument that George Washington was made too given that he's long since been allegedly dead.

Plus, you can always just planar travel and meet deities in person. Not exactly easy for the common person but is possible in Golarion's mechanics.


In both PF and SF, souls do exist and there is belief in some sort of an afterlife. I have a feeling that bit right there would influence a lot of people to follow a particular deity rather than simply embrace atheism and/or technology and/or solely arcane magic.

Shadow Lodge

Delightful wrote:
How about the fact that Aroden was walking around on Golarion for awhile. I suppose you could make the argument that's not proof because that was centuries ago and could all be made but make the same argument that George Washington was made too given that he's long since been allegedly dead.

How does one tell a god apart from a 20th level wizard? (one of them at least makes it really hard)

Quote:
Plus, you can always just planar travel and meet deities in person. Not exactly easy for the common person but is possible in Golarion's mechanics.

I met a doppleganger once that sword they were my grandfather. And they're like a CR 2.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Delightful wrote:
How about the fact that Aroden was walking around on Golarion for awhile. I suppose you could make the argument that's not proof because that was centuries ago and could all be made but make the same argument that George Washington was made too given that he's long since been allegedly dead.
How does one tell a god apart from a 20th level wizard? (one of them at least makes it really hard)

Easy, a 20th level wizard will run out of spell slots a lot more quickly, you've just got to be good at running until then and hope it's a wizard.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Delightful wrote:
How about the fact that Aroden was walking around on Golarion for awhile. I suppose you could make the argument that's not proof because that was centuries ago and could all be made but make the same argument that George Washington was made too given that he's long since been allegedly dead.

How does one tell a god apart from a 20th level wizard? (one of them at least makes it really hard)

Woah there! Let's not put labels on these things...

Especially keeping in mind what happens to people that question gods


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Also I haven't been confirmed in the core 20 because I'm uh... hiding my divinity for tax purposes. I can confirm that I have personally killed Torag, and sued Asmodeus for everything he's worth. I funded Besmara in her efforts to overthrow Lamashtu. Iomedae is next.

All the evidence and documentation was unfortunately stored in the Gap, so you'll just have to take my word for it.


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Razmir, the Living God wrote:

Also I haven't been confirmed in the core 20 because I'm uh... hiding my divinity for tax purposes. I can confirm that I have personally killed Torag, and sued Asmodeus for everything he's worth. I funded Besmara in her efforts to overthrow Lamashtu. Iomedae is next.

All the evidence and documentation was unfortunately stored in the Gap, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Why do I have the feeling that you're going to start talking about thetans next?


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Y'know, I think it would actually be rather funny if Razmir got his last class level and figured out Immortality... but doesn't remember how he did it because of the Gap. XD You could squeeze a fair bit of plot out of that.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

I'm sure that Asmodeus is still around. After all, the devil's greatest trick is making everyone believe he doesn't exist.

"Gentlemen, pardon me. I represent the board of a . . . coalition of sorts. Certain business interests working together for greater profit. No, we have no connections to Abadarcorp, our core business is . . . older. They have inroads in many different industries; travel, civil planning, accounting, industry, information technology, and military contracts, just to name a few. Our in-house legal firm is second to none, and we have certain inroads in the politics of the Pact Worlds. Our chairman has been at this for a very long time. But enough of the sales pitch, let me explain why I came here today. We are in need of adventurers for certain tasks that need to be taken care of. I am authorized to provide certain incentives for your services, along with a hefty fee, of course. I thought you might be interested, so I took the liberty of drawing up a contract. Just for records purposes, of course, but it does define the duties and requirements. For everyone's protection, you understand. You will see the requirements are well within your skill set. Both sides can profit from this. Just sign right here, thumbprint here, and this will provide a genetic scan . . . "


pours urine on said contract.....
find some other sap...

but yeah, he is also the god of slavery right?


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Is there really demotion going on? Paizo has been clewr that the core deities in PF were relevant to Golarion specifically, and with certain exception (e.g. pharasma) most of the deities may be minor players or even nobodies out in the universe. Just because a deity isn't represented on the core list doesn't make it a demotion. Ol' Asmo may be mightier and more influential than ever and still not make the list.


Cdawg wrote:
Is there really demotion going on? Paizo has been clewr that the core deities in PF were relevant to Golarion specifically, and with certain exception (e.g. pharasma) most of the deities may be minor players or even nobodies out in the universe. Just because a deity isn't represented on the core list doesn't make it a demotion. Ol' Asmo may be mightier and more influential than ever and still not make the list.

Basically what I keep saying


That has some odd implications, though. Asmodeus was the lord of Hell. He ruled an entire outer plane where lawful evil souls went. So...are there other 'Hells' and Asmodeus only got the Golarion souls? That would seem to make the outer planes dramatically more complex than we've understood. Are there alien Empyreal Lords guarding the levels of other Heavens? Are there alien Planes of Fire, Shadow, etc ruled over by other Elemental Lords?


Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber

Hell is probably still where those souls go, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's still as important an object of worship in the Pact Worlds> I think Asmodeus is still important but the core 20 is the most widely worshipped so if his worship is in decline in the future that may play into it.

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