Running a Darkest Dungeon Campaign (Advice)

[Jonathon Wilder]

I have a player who would like me to try and put together a Campaign based on the game Darkest Dungeon, because of such I am looking for some advice. My player has already sent me a few videos involving the game and I think I have a general idea of how I might do things but am coming here to see if any of those more experienced have advice or suggestions.

Books I have already considered using is Horror Adventures, Horror Realms, Occult Adventures, Occult Realms, Carrion Hill, Carrion Crown, and The House on Hook Street, Gallows of Madness... and most importantly, my Gothic Campaign Compendium. Which I have a hardcover for, of which I have admittedly been wanting to try.

Other suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

[Eltacolibre]

That's pretty much the gist of it.

The Darkest Dungeon at his core is a megadungeon campaign.

Horror adventures has plenty of rules for sanity/madness, so you can take care of that when implementing it into your campaign.

One of the big thing, is players should be ready or even expected to run out of the dungeon, when it becomes too dangerous.

I believe horror adventures talk about an alternate system for fear, might consider it with classes like Paladin immune to fear.

To keep the horror aspect, I would say you can safely end this campaign around level 10-11, starting from level 1. Beyond that, it becomes another kind of game entirely.

Villain Codex and Npc Codex could give you plenty of cultists fodder.

[Jonathon Wilder]

Thanks, I forgot to mention that I have of late gotten into the habit of using Spheres of Power so I am not certain how that might effect things but there might be a little more leeway in allow a bit higher ceiling in where I would need to stop the campaign.

With this, once the final version is out or even help playtest it farther it such is still going on, I will perhaps be able to make sure of Spheres of Might as well though time will tell. Yet for now I think I will put this aside, especially so I can use a few other resources.

I will have to see if I can get a pdf of the Villain Codex and NPC Codex to see what I can find for opponents or enemies. I did note in the video that there appeared to be quite a bit of undead as well more aberrant or eldritch monstrosities so that could probably be mixed in with the occultists.

I was planning on consider using a fear and/or sanity rules, perhaps something that could mimic the stress mechanics the games have. The fact that Paladins are immune to fear is something to consider, though notability by default they do not have resistance or immunity to insanity effects.

[Scales of Balance]

I'd use a character tree or leadership to bring in extra cohorts for them to play as their main character is slowly...or quickly driven insane....I've played that video game and enjoyed it immensely. It ground through characters quicker that the original Ravenloft in 1st edition....

[Hubaris]

I would say to check out Shadow of the Demon Lord. It's a low magic horror RPG using d20s and I have had great success running Darkest Dungeon with it. The setting and magic items are low, has interesting takes on creatures. Has great sanity and stress rules, corruption rules and a wicked class system. Has quirk rules and madness built in. Characters take little time to build as well.

Really, really recommend it and checking it out for dark fantasy and horror.

[Firewarrior44]

I seem to recall someone telling me the Torchbearer system is also very good at emulating that darkest dungeon feel

[Gulthor]

I hate to be that guy, but I think that Pathfinder is the wrong system for Darkest Dungeon.

I'd actually recommend - wait for it - 4th Edition D&D.

Yes, seriously.

4th handles ongoing effects like Blight and Bleed much more easily with its version of saving throws - especially death saving throws and the "All healing brings you to 0 first, then heals you" mechanic (oh look, it's Darkest Dungeon's "Death's Door" mechanic!) Effects like Stuns are much more common in 4th - as they are in Darkest Dungeon.

At-Will and Encounter Powers more accurately capture the Darkest Dungeon feel, and it would be pretty trifling to convert the Darkest Dungeon classes to 4th (and oh look, Crimson Court just added a bunch of 1/encounter powers...)

Camping Skills equate pretty easily to Martial Practices and Rituals.

Elite and Solo enemies having multiple actions per round is straight out of the Darkest Dungeon playbook.

I'd just make 7th be the max level (Darkest Dungeon starts you at "Level 0", so there are really 7 levels in DD, not 6), which also just so happens to fit with getting your 7th level attack power. I'd probably go the "Essentials" route, and basically just have slightly more powerful versions of the same starting powers (which is exactly how Darkest Dungeon levels them up) and I'd probably just have dailies be an extra at-will or encounter power.

Just my .02

[Rub-Eta]

After having tried out the sanity system a bit (which I really like the idea of), my group noticed that it was far too unbalanced to actually use (we didn't even get through the two first books of Strange Aeons before we got royally f$+*ed). So I re-wrote it. Please note, these rules have been tailored to my group's play-style and may not work as good for your group. But feel free to use these rules and pm me if you have any questions or feedback.

[Jonathon Wilder]

I have gotten a pdf of Shadow of the Demon Lord and will perhaps see if there is anything there for me to use. I admit though, especially because of the next two suggestions I will say strongly that I wish to stick with Pathfinder, as there are a fair few things I want to be able to use in a campaign.

I especially want nothing to do with D&D 4e, even if it may work in this situation, as I have nothing but frustration for that edition and wish it had never been made. It was I feel very much a setback for D&D as a whole, with I feel Wizards of the Coast losing many who loved the system given how radically they changed it. Even now, I think they are just picking up the pieces with D&D 5e.

Sighs, my apologizes, but I just do not have fond feelings to D&D 4e. It may seem silly, especially because the reasons you gave seem fair, but the system just never felt right. Perhaps even a betrayal of what had originally been created.
-------------------

Thanks for the file Rub-Eta, I will look it over.

[Jonathon Wilder]

Gulthor, I'd like to apologize if I came down on your suggestion too hard. I didn't mean to be rude or dismissive, and I do appropriate that you took the time to offer the suggestion whether or not you knew it wouldn't be accepted.

Signs, I just really have negative feelings to D&D 4e. Though, it was because of this that I got into Pathfinder in the first place. Something to consider I guess, and again my apologizes for shooting down your suggestion.

[Balgin]

Like Gulthor I would recommend using another system for Darkest Dungeon. Not 4th edition 'though. My recommendations would be Shadows of Esteren if you're wanting to focus more on the psychological aspects of adventuring and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition of Zwiehander if you're wanting to focus more on a complex combat simulation (with psychological elements thrown in).

If you really wish to stick with Pathfinder then my suggestions would be as follows:

From Horror Adventures use the Fear, Insanity & Madness systems. The Tortured Crusader archetype is blatantly the Darkest Dungeon Crusader and the Martyr archetype from the same book is blatantly the Leper.

Unfortunately Pathfinder is a very magic heavy system where every character has magic coming out of their ears, two thirds of the classes are spellcasters and there are magic items, potions and scrolls left, right and centre. Unfortunately this doesn't really evoke the Darkest Dungeon feel. This is one of the main reasons why I would personally recommend other, less magic heavy systems. If you want to go Low Magic then Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay covers that aspect very well with the spellcasting carreers being few and far between (and often with stringent entry requirements).

Read up on lots of Call of the Cthulhu/HP Lovecraft stuff. It's very thematically appropriate for Darkest Dungeon. The theme of a few small and insignificant heroes trying to stand up against an ancient overpowering evil that does not care for their very existence. Keep the game dark and gritty (unfortunately Pathfinder's level based health increases don't really mesh well with dark and gritty but there are ways to make it work).

Balance is important in a low magic game. You want the game to be ominous, dark, and dangerous but if your players begin to complain about not getting enough magic or treasure or the fact that the priest in the abbey in town can't cast any healing spells (because he's a level 4 expert) then you might want to have a sit down with them and discuss what kind of game they'd rather be playing and see if it can match your vision in a way that won't involve too many compromises.

Another problem with a low magic campaign (where magic is rare in frequency) is that if all the players decide to play spellcasters that immediately changes the nature of the campaign. There are, essentially playing on easy mode whereas it's only the monsters and the npc's who are at a disadvantage. A cleric in a low magic game has a really easy time because they are basically the armoured healing wizard.

Resist the urge to have shops full of magical items on every street corner. Don't have other wizards around willing to teach spells at a price. Keep the magic rare but also encourage the players to not rely too heavily on it. Make magic socially unacceptable. Superstitious peasants don't take too kindly to foul sorcery (and foul sorcery is whatever they think it is). Too many magical displays and a character could end up being drummed out of town or even burnt at the stake or drowned in a ducking stool. Even when they aren't casting spells maintain that air of menace and suspicion. Playing a spell casting hero who has to hide their magic in a game where magic is unacceptable can be quite an entertaining twist.

Since the Horror Adventures book has got a section in the back for creating old school Ravenloft style Dark Lords with their Domains consider making The Darkest Dungeon a Darklord in it's own right (or whatever lurks in it's darkest depths) and then it's Domain si the Hamlet, the surrounding lands, and the other smaller dungeons that dot the landscape. That would be a very nice way of handling it.

[Jonathon Wilder]

Again, one aspect I feel will greatly help with this is Spheres of Power. Especially if I bar access to Advance Talents, cantrips, and rituals, and allow only thebasic talents available for the different spheres. Another consideration perhaps is to not allow full casters, or at least those with access to the most magic such as Wizards and Incanters. You can learn more about the Spheres of Power system here.

Still, I can see your point though I suspect the player who requested a Darkest Dungeon campaign might not be so keen in having such not be either D&D or Pathfinder. When it comes to magic, how do you feel about D&D 5e? I will take a look into Shadows of Esteren and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e in seeing how those might work, as well see if my players might be okay with trying such systems or roleplays for the campaign. Hopefully, something can be worked out.

Also, thank you for the rest of your advice.

[Balgin]

Shadows of Esteren is a purely psychological game. There are no physical ability scores. Instead the ability scores represent elements of the character's personality. So an aggressive character with a high Combativeness stat will have a fairly easy time striking foes in combat but will tend to have a fairly low defence. I believe the stats are combativeness, creativity, empathy, reason & conviction.

Ironically the stats can be used against a character. If a hero hears a low growl in the darkness nearby then they could be called upon to roll a Reasoning test. If they pass they are afraid whereas if they fail they are fearless. Likewise a character in great danger who passes a Reasoning check could suffer Analysis Paralysis. A warrior being taunted by an enemy might pass a Combativeness check, fly into a rage and lash out physically (severely hurting the ongoing negotiations).

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st & 2nd edition have a very good character class system that mirrors late medieval to early renaissance life with careers from all walks of life being available. Rather than gaining levels, however, characters can migrate from one profession to another in a very tinker, tailor, soldier spy kind of manner. It has a brutal lethal combat system and a really good insanity system as well. The reason I recommend 2nd ed is that it's better organised and easier to read than the 1st edition was (although it toned down and stripped out a lot of the professions). If you're going to be looking at 2nd edition fro inspiration I highly recommend getting hold of the Careers Compendium which reinstitutes a lot of the missing careers that were removed from the core rulebook and includes a few of it's own.

If anything the WFRP insanity system would be really helpful for running a Darkest Dungeon style campaign and it's fairly easy to port across as it stands alone from the system without relying on too many of the other rules that surround it. When characters witness or take part in particularly madening activities they gain Insanity Points. Pretty much 1 per situation although occasionally more. When they get a certain amount of points they make some sort of mental resistance roll (i.e. a Will Save) and failure results in a random madness. In first edition it was 6 insanity points for a roll and in 2nd I nbelieev it's every 10 points. The points are traded in for the roll so they can start building up towards yet another potential madness and more and more until they become a gibbering wreck or are forced to retire from adventuring for their own good. I'd say it's more balanced than the Pathfinder one.

Conversely the Shadows of Esteren insanity system is very different. Every character has an underlying psychosis. A madness that is chosen at character creation (often dictated by their stats). As their sanity crumbles their psychosis begins to manifest, growing stronger until it dominates every aspect of their waking world for them.

[Balgin]

Oh, the Gunslinger has a Bolt Ace archetype which is basically the Gunslinger with a Crossbow instead of the guns. That might suit the Arbalest quite nicely. The Hellion should probably be a Barbarian. It would depend on how closely you want your pc's to resemble the heroes from the game. I'd actually encourage it as it's a thematic challenge.

[Jonathon Wilder]

@Balgin
I've honestly wanted to run a Warhammer Fantasy RPG for quite some time, but the big thing holding me back is that there's so many other things you need just to run a campaign apart from dice. There's numerous other accessories that you need to use, at least if you want to play the game as intended.

Which could be an issue because I don't have the money for and could not readily have such put to use anyway if I were to do the campaign online. Which more likely then not that is what it would have to be. Admittedly I do believe there are variant rules that allow you to play the game without those accessories but I'm not quite sure how that would work either.

[Jonathon Wilder]

Hmm, anyone have any thoughts on the low magic Witchdusk campaign setting put together for Pathfinder? Not sure how it might mix with Spheres of Power, could bring spellcasting too low and cause its own problems, but it looks promising.

Instead of the Cleric, you have the D&D Healer with a domain as well updated spell list. For the Wizard you have the Academy Magus, a repurposing of the Magus with Staff Magus and Robed Magus archetypes. For the Druid you have the Hunter, a repurposing of the Hunter. Also, they added in the D&D Warmage.

Also a big different seems to be an alternate skills structure, appearing to perhaps take a few ideas from D&D 5e with Deception, Persuasion, and Insight though the Knowledge skill is interesting in how it has been organized. Also, in how all classes that only gain 2 skill points per level gain 4 instead while others classes gain an extra 1.

[Eltacolibre]

Not familiar with the setting...so can't comment on it but it's your game, so do whatever you want to play.

[Jonathon Wilder]

Well if you follow the link, you could at least check out how they handle classes, races, and skills. I wont so much be using the setting itself, more just the altered classes and mechanics.

[mechaPoet]

Torchbearer is extremely fitting for a Darkest Dungeon RPG.

Now, I know you said you'd prefer to stick to Pathfinder. There's nothing wrong with that, of course - but if YOU want to play Pathfinder and THEY want to play Darkest Dungeon, you are facing some compromise. My best advice, to add to what others are suggesting for specifically using Pathfinder's more horror-oriented content, is that you be aware of the difference in what kind of tone the Pathfinder mechanics set versus what you want to achieve for this player.

If you both aren't enjoying it, it might be better to switch games - either to using a system that does something closer or having player buy in for the sorts of games that Pathfinder does better. Try to recognize the limits of your tools (i.e. the game mechanics) to tell certain stories, and be aware of how much compromise is possible between what the two of you want.

[Fergie]

Cool! I have a "bit" of time into that game, and a bit into Pathfinder as well. I'll do my best to help you out.

Darkest Dungeon is a grimdark, lovecraftian game, which Pathfinder can do fairly well. It is mostly 4 person adventuring party stuff, mixed with resource management. Classes, items, etc. should not require that much alteration. With that said, Darkest Dungeon is all about STRESS. Walking through the dungeon causes stress, many monster attacks cause stress, and there are all kinds of horrific things that can totally stress you out! The game handles stress with a 0-200 slider for each character. When you hit 100, you usually lose your marbles and gain a substantial specific penalty. Then you really start to stress everyone out! However, there is a small (20%?) chance you can go "virtuous" and gain substantial bonuses. When you hit 200 stress, you have a heartattack, and usually die. Oh yeah, and did I mention, death is permanent. No saved games, no raise dead. Permadeath.

The other aspect to Darkest Dungeon is resource management. Each week, you send out a 4 person party that hopefully brings back gold, and various resources that can be used to maintain and upgrade characters and upgrade the manor, which helps future characters. Upgrades allow access to improved weapons, armor, skills, and stress/disease/quirk removal.

The difficultly in emulating the video game with TTRPG is that the game is almost sadistically brutal. Characters can be killed before you get a chance to act. Characters who have been on a dozen quests can be killed, and you're never getting them back. While you do get good quirks, and cool magic items, you also get many negative quirks, and there is also a robust disease mechanic. It is not uncommon to come back from a quest and have a bunch of characters who are all stressed out, have bad quirks, and more then one disease. Sometimes it is best to just send a character away, rather then get him back to health. Despite all this, it is a really fun, addictive game!

Many aspects that make Darkest Dungeon fun as a computer game would not work out well when played as Pathfinder, or almost any TTPRG for that matter. Pathfinder is much slower then DD, at least the way I generally play both games. In DD, I can do a dozen fights controlling 4 PCs in like 1 hour. I can have a group leveled up, equipped with items, and supplies and ready for the dungeon in 10 minutes. If I lose a character or two, I have a roster of 10-20 PCs ready to play, and there are always a couple of pre-gens I can recruit (stagecoach). I Pathfinder, it takes me a while I stat up a single PC. I'm lucky to get through a single combat in under an hour. If my PC gets two diseases, and 2 negative quirks (essentially feats), and has stressed out (like getting a negative level) that needs removal, I'm probably going to have less fun playing that character for several more sessions in that condition. Darkest Dungeon is fun because of its lethal brutality, but Pathfinder played the same way would probably not be fun.

There are several aspects of DD that would make an excellent setting for Pathfinder. I would focus more on capturing that sinister lovecraft feel, rather then going after the mechanics of DD, as most of them are just punishing. Include a stress mechanic with consequences, but nothing too brutal. I would also focus on a lower level campaign- DD tops out at essentially 7th level, so focus the aspects you want into those levels.

There are a few other systems from DD that might be fun to include:
-Light level. DD combat is heavily affected by light level.
-Positive and negative quirks that are randomly acquired.
-Curios - location specific places where items can be used for better outcomes.
-Manor improvements that could provide benefits to the PCs.
-Magic items. DD has a lending library type system with magic items.
-Camping mechanic where players have skills that renew or provide bonuses.

Those are my recommendations for mixing the two games. I also think you could do a fun short campaign that runs closer to DD that involves players swapping mostly pre-gen'd characters for short weekly delves, with a high mortality rate. I'd be happy to offer whatever advice or information whatever direction you want to try.

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure if anyone mentioned Carnival of Tears, but that is very close the the DD feel.

[Eltacolibre]

A lot of choices seems odd is basically my main opinion of it, after reading it.

I mean, if you like it...have fun with the witchdusk setting, I guess. Not really my cup of tea.