I'm developing a character to join a Carrion Crown game. I believe I'll be joining at the beginning of the Ashes at Dawn AP. The group is comprised of a Human Barbarian, Human Ranger, Human Cleric, and Human Sorcerer. I'll be joining the game along with a Human Druid that is my character's sister.
I'm not sure on the gear. I've got a few items in mind, but want some advice to increase this character's survivability and ability to contribute to combat. I could also use some advice for the Oracle and Bard spells, as well as combat tactics for the character's Bard abilities.
DUSAN HYSKA, PATHFINDER OF THE VODAVANI LODGE:
Male Human Oracle(Psychic Searcher) 3/Bard(Studious Librarian Negotiator) 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 1/Pathfinder Delver 1
N M Humanoid(Human)
Init +1; Perception +20
DEFENSE:
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 (+0 Dex)
hp 58 (10d8+10)
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +8
OFFENSE:
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed +4 (1d3–1 non-lethal/20)
Special Attacks Bardic Performance 14 rounds/day (counterargument, fascinate, fast talk -2, inspire competence +2)
During Combat In the surprise round, Dusan uses a Standard action to activate Ash Cloud, creating a 10 ft. radius area of obscuring mist that only he (and his allies with Fogcutting Lenses) can see through. In full rounds of combat, he can use a Standard action to activate Ash Cloud, creating a 10 ft. radius area of obscuring mist that only he can see through, and a Move action to move into a safer position while determining the next course of action.
STATISTICS:
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 14
Armor: Comfort +5,000 GP
Belts:
Body:
Chest: Vestment, Mnemonic - 5,000 GP AND/OR Sipping Jacket - 5,000 GP
Eyes: Eyes of the Eagle - 2,500 AND/OR Fogcutting Lenses - 8,000 GP AND/OR Goggles of Minute Seeing - 2,500 GP
Feet:
Hands:
Head: Circlet of Persuasion - 4,500 GP
Headband: Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (Not sure of skill, perhaps Spellcraft or Stealth) - 4,000 GP
Neck:
Ring (up to two):
Shield:
Shoulders:
Wrists:
Slotless:
Wayfinder (Standard) - 500 GP
Ioun Stone, Clear Spindle - 4,000 GP
Handy Haversack - 2,000 GP
Ioun Torch - 75 GP
Traveler’s Any-Tool - 250 GP
Bottle, Eversmoking - 5,400 GP
An assortment of useful scrolls and potions
How does this character help the party? How does he help defeat enemies? You have a tenth level character with first and second level spells, no weapon, no party buffs, not even a wand of magic missile. You'll have to add a +1 bonus to your armor before adding comfort.
Like Korlos says. You can talk to people, you're knowledgable, you can disable non-magic traps - and the ash cloud thing is essentially a 1st level spell (obscuring mist) since you're ineffective enough in combat that it really doesn't matter that you can see thru it. Wit the wrecker curse you can't even use many magic items effectively.
Your offence is nonexistent, you have minimal buffs (2nd level bard spells but no inspire courage - a negotiator trades that away) and you're dead if anything gets close enough to find you thru the ash clouds, or if the enemy can see thru them too.
Like Korlos says. You can talk to people, you're knowledgable, you can disable non-magic traps - and the ash cloud thing is essentially a 1st level spell (obscuring mist) since you're ineffective enough in combat that it really doesn't matter that you can see thru it. Wit the wrecker curse you can't even use many magic items effectively.
Your offence is nonexistent, you have minimal buffs (2nd level bard spells but no inspire courage - a negotiator trades that away) and you're dead if anything gets close enough to find you thru the ash clouds, or if the enemy can see thru them too.
The Pathfinder Delver let's me disable magical traps as well.
The Ash Cloud ability blocks line of sight for targeting with spells, not only for enemies targeting me, but also my allies behind me. If the enemy gets into melee, they'd still have a 20-50% miss chance, regardless of attack bonus. And by 10th level, attack bonuses quickly outpace AC bonuses. What other abilities let you see through Obscuring Mist?
Wrecker does make weapons and armor kinda worthless, but there has to be ways around that, such as Bracers of Armor. Wands will be more expensive, but Wrecker doesn't affect Potions or Scrolls.
Since you mentioned them, what 2nd level Bard spells are good for buffing?
How does this character help the party? How does he help defeat enemies? You have a tenth level character with first and second level spells, no weapon, no party buffs, not even a wand of magic missile. You'll have to add a +1 bonus to your armor before adding comfort.
This character has ample knowledge skills, the ability to gather a lot of info and negotiate well with NPC's, high Perception (with none of the previous skills requiring a roll as the character can always take 10 with them), can spot traps without looking for them, and can disable non-aggressive and magical traps. Some of these are areas that the group doesn't currently excel. The point of my asking for help is to get people to suggest useful spells and equipment that could allow me to contribute to combat, not to have people tell me what I can't contribute to combat. I'm aware this character is largely a non-combatant.
Since you mentioned them, what 2nd level Bard spells are good for buffing?
I think you're overestimating how good the obscuring mist ash cloud will be. It's one layer of defence at best.
Anyway. 2nd level bard buffs. Heroism is the best one. Gallant inspiration can be very handy, though you won't have the spell slots to use it often. Tactical acumen is of iffy usefulness but it does affect the whole party. Rage may fit the style of some in your party.
Among non-buffs mirror image may save your life often given that you have little otherwise between you and a sharp sword. Urban step is the lowest level teleportation anywhere. You might consider silence as a debuff - cast it on an area or an ally rather than the enemy directly.
Since you mentioned them, what 2nd level Bard spells are good for buffing?
Anyway. 2nd level bard buffs. Heroism is the best one. Gallant inspiration can be very handy, though you won't have the spell slots to use it often. Tactical acumen is of iffy usefulness but it does affect the whole party. Rage may fit the style of some in your party.
Among non-buffs mirror image may save your life often given that you have little otherwise between you and a sharp sword. Urban step is the lowest level teleportation anywhere. You might consider silence as a debuff - cast it on an area or an ally rather than the enemy directly.
Those are helpful. Thank you. Any suggestions for 1st level spells, Bard or Oracle?
1st level bard spells: Share language may be useful for the face in the party, as would adoration, aspect of the nightingale and/or tap inner beauty (+2 morale, competence or insight bonuses respectively). Heightened awareness would be useful for those knowledge & perception checks. Having some sort of invisibility (e.g. vanish) is often useful. Silent image may (depending on the GM) be able to avoid prompting a saving throw in some situations which could make it useful. Saving finale gives a saving throw reroll to your friends.
1st level oracle spells: Aspect of the nightingale & tap inner beauty are cleric/oracle spells too. Protection from evil is actually more useful at high levels - there's more enemies with spells/SLAs which it may affect. Liberating command is handy if your GM likes monsters with grab, remove fear if they like monsters with fear abilities. Rite of bodily purity & rite of centered mind are useful so long as you have 100 gp of incense to burn that day. Most of the others would be at least as useful from 25 gp scrolls for you IMO.
I'd pick vanish, share language, saving finale and heightened awareness from the bard list, and maybe tap inner beauty, protection from evil & one of the rites from the oracle list, if I wasn't trying to build to a narrow-ish theme (e.g. healer, sage or face).
Alright, here's the revised version of the character; thoughts?
Dušan Hyska, Pathfinder of the Vodavani Lodge:
Male Human Oracle(Psychic Searcher) 3/Bard(Studious Librarian Negotiator) 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 1/Pathfinder Delver 1
N M Humanoid(Human)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +20 (+25 if wearing Eyes of the Eagle)
Defense:
AC 13(19 while using Total Defense), touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+3 Armor, +0 Dex)
hp 58 (10d8+10)
Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +10
Offense:
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed +4 (1d3–1 non-lethal/20)
Special Attacks Bardic Performance 14 rounds/day (counterargument, fascinate, fast talk -2, inspire competence +2)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 3rd; concentration +5)
During Combat In the surprise round, Dušan uses the Spring-loaded Wrist sheath to grab his Wand of Invisibility as a Swift action, then make himself invisible before making a 5 ft. adjustment, if possible. In full rounds of combat, Dušan uses his scrolls to buff the party with Bless, followed by Protection from Evil (if appropriate) before adapting to specific circumstances. This may include using Versatile Weapon on allies weapons, Infernal Healing to stabilize fallen allies, summon a swarm of bats or spiders to create a distraction on the battlefield, use illusions to deceive their opponents, or to use whatever is at his disposal to create environmental obstacles. If Dušan is visible, he might use a Scroll of Burning Disarm to deal 3d4 fire damage or get an opponent to drop their weapon.
Statistics:
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 14
Armor: +2 Locksmith Comfort Armored Kilt
Feet: Boots of Retreat
Hands: Glowing Gloves
Head: Circlet of Persuasion
Headband: Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (Stealth)
Neck: Aegis of Recovery
Signal whistle
Ring (up to two):Ring of the Sublime
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance (+2)
Wrists: Sleeves of Many Garments
Wayfinder w/cracked Iridescent Spindle
Dull Gray Stone(Ioun Stone) w/4th Level Continual Flame
Wrist Sheath, spring loaded
Wand of Invisibility (CL 3) (50 charges)
Gear in Versatile Vest:
Top Left Pocket (Capacity: 1/2 cubic ft./5 lb.)
Candles (2)
Rations, Trail (1 day)
Tindertwig
Waterskin (1 Quart of Water)
Bottom Left Pocket (Capacity: 1/2 cubic ft./5 lb.)
Empty
Central Portion (Capacity: 8 cubic ft./80 lb.)
Clay Jug (Capacity: 1 gallon/8 lbs)
Bread
Cheese
Street Meat
Cooking Kit
Iron Cooking Pot
Cooking Pan
Wooden Roasting Sticks
Wooden Bowls (4)
Flint and steel
Dagger
Cinnamon 1 oz.
Pepper 1 oz.
Ginger 1 oz.
Salt 1 oz.
What does this series of multiclassing get you that you can't do with empiricist investigator? Several more skills would be based on Int instead of charisma and your inspiration pool would be based on intelligence, unlike the psychic searcher.
You need a ring of protection and a necklace of natural armor. Why are you spending 5000 on the comfort property when you could get a mithral chain shirt for 1100 and have higher AC? Bards get to cast in light armor.
You're missing heroism - I wasn't kidding about it being the best buff. It can apply its +2 to many rolls during its 50 minute duration, gallant inspiration will apply its +2d4 once only. Also getting both minor image and silent image feels like wasting one pick - drop one of them IMO. Unless you have silent spell (& bards can't use it) ghost sound is almost always useless in my experience.
Since oracles get cure light wounds (or inflict light wounds, but you're not a dhampir) for free, there's no good reason to pick infernal healing.
Wouldn't you normally be wearing the eyes of the eagle to avoid being surprised in an encounter? You really don't want to be surprised, you could find yourself in melee.
Human Barbarian
Human Ranger
Human Cleric
Human Sorcerer
Human Druid
Plus Dušan, of course. With a party that large, I think you can play anything you want, because basically all the normal bases are covered. The question is, what do you want to be?
You've got some decent knowledge skills. Those are always helpful.
You've got good social skills. You'll probably be okay in social encounters -- IF you're the one rolling. My experience has been that it's more common for whoever is interested to jump straight in and start talking to the NPCs themselves, rather than deferring to the "face" in the party -- which is how you wind up with the Barbarian with a -2 Diplomacy score accidentally starting a bar fight just by asking for a glass of water while the bard face-palms in the corner.
If you want to make yourself the party face, you're probably going to have to explicitly tell the other players to let Dušan handle negotiations, and even then it's probably going to run into issues when the NPCs choose to disregard Dušan in favor of talking directly to one of the other PCs. Which will happen, fairly often. It'd be pretty weird if all of the NPCs talked strictly to one character while the whole rest of the party sat in stony silence, watching.
You're reasonably good at disarming traps. And while there are traps in the game, they're not as common as all that, and you'll have to get your party accustomed to letting you go first and check for them, otherwise someone is just going to go barreling into one. Your Disable Device score is irrelevant if the party fighter sticks his big foot directly into it before you get there.
Your other abilities are so watered down that you're going to struggle to find anything useful to do in combat. Your offensive spells have such low save DCs that your opponents will probably pass most of the time. You haven't got a weapon, and if you did you'd stand little chance of hitting anything; at this level, with those to-hit bonuses, most of the time you'll need to roll a natural 20 to hit at all.
Buffing the party is probably your best bet. Save DCs don't matter when you spend your time giving helpful spells to your party, and then they can worry about hitting people. Unfortunately, your selection of buffs is pretty limited, and due to all the multi-classing, you don't get many spells per day, and they don't last long once cast.
Could you elaborate more on what you see your role in the party as? Because I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying for.
The party is big enough, that they can probably handle you being essentially a dead weight in combat. If that is ok with you, go ahead with what you are doing.
If you want to be an effective support caster though, you will probably do a whole let better with just a single class. Either bard or oracle could perform this role admirably.
What does this series of multiclassing get you that you can't do with empiricist investigator? Several more skills would be based on Int instead of charisma and your inspiration pool would be based on intelligence, unlike the psychic searcher.
Could you tell me in what ways you think an Empiricist would excel over this character?
Korlos wrote:
You need a ring of protection and a necklace of natural armor. Why are you spending 5000 on the comfort property when you could get a mithral chain shirt for 1100 and have higher AC? Bards get to cast in light armor.
Thank you for catching the Comfort armor quality. That's actually a typo. I had already removed it on my other sheet. By 10th level, the discrepancy between opponents' attack bonuses (often +13-20) and the typically low AC of certain character types (casters and skill-focused characters often have an AC of 13-20) makes investing into AC fairly cost-ineffective. Though I did forget that Bards can cast in light armor without worrying about Arcane Spell Failure. So, I'm actually considering some armor to help mitigate any mook combatants that might reach me, which typically have attack bonuses of ~+7 for an AP starting at 11th level.
@avr:
avr wrote:
You're missing heroism - I wasn't kidding about it being the best buff. It can apply its +2 to many rolls during its 50 minute duration, gallant inspiration will apply its +2d4 once only.
I'm not sure how I forgot some scrolls of Heroism. I elected to use my Spells known to drop the cost of scrolls that I'm likely to be casting a lot. Some scrolls of heroism could go a long way, and I had planned to use the Mnemonic Vestments to lower the cost of making Scrolls, but the 5000 gp investment made it cost-ineffective. I'll pick up a few at the normal cost of 200gp each.I like Gallant Inspiration and since it's an immediate action to cast, I want to leave my limited daily spell slots open to use it, particularly since the remaining spells are non-immediate and can be cast from scrolls.
avr wrote:
Also getting both minor image and silent image feels like wasting one pick - drop one of them IMO. Unless you have silent spell (& bards can't use it) ghost sound is almost always useless in my experience.
Looking at Ghost Sound, you're right that it won't be too useful and, as per Ghost Sound, Minor Image produces sound that could be 'interacted with' and trigger a Will save, which I'm avoiding. I'll take another look at the Bard spell list to replace Minor Image.
avr wrote:
Since oracles get cure light wounds (or inflict light wounds, but you're not a dhampir) for free, there's no good reason to pick infernal healing.
Since I'm not going to be using daily spell slots for healing, Infernal Healing beats Cure Lights Wounds every time in terms of gp per point of healing if I can scribe the scroll myself(1.25 gp per hp vs 1.39gp per hp at best). If the situation is so desparate that a sudden boost of hp is necessary, there is a full cleric in the party. This character is not intended to be the party's primary healer.
avr wrote:
Wouldn't you normally be wearing the eyes of the eagle to avoid being surprised in an encounter? You really don't want to be surprised, you could find yourself in melee.
The Eyes of the Eagle don't directly prevent surprise. Even without them, the Stealth DC to get into melee without me noticing at all is 31(Wiscrani Ear allows the character to take 10 on all Perception checks, +20 Perception without the Eyes of the Eagle).
@Jack Rift:
Jack Rift wrote:
Infernal Healing is better out of combat healing than cure light wounds, but it is better as a wand than a spell known, for any classes that get it.
With the Wrecked curse, the cost of wand charges double. I can create a Scroll of it(which isn't affected by Wrecked) more cheaply at 12.5gp each, rather than 15gp per wand charge(30 gp per wand charge in my hands). In any case, healing is an out-of-combat activity. Damage outpaces healing very quickly as characters progress through levels and action economy limits this even further, which makes stopping the source of damage more effective than using an action to undo SOME of the damage that has been dealt.
@Wasum:
Wasum wrote:
First I thought your character wont be able to do much in a CR appropriate fight but then I recognize you have something to contribute!
Quote:
If Dušan is visible, he might use a Scroll of Burning Disarm to deal 3d4 fire damage or get an opponent to drop their weapon.
In my opinion, using teamwork is more important at mid to high levels than individual combat ability, which isn't to say that individual ability doesn't matter. Level-based games suffer from the flaw of bigger numbers are always better. I've accidentally TPK'd a party of optimized characters using a CR-appropriate encounter of 4 ghouls with class levels (Cleric, Wizard, Fighter, and Rogue). This wasn't because the Ghouls were better built, but because the PC's teamwork(and gish classes, to be fair) couldn't keep up with the Ghouls' tactics and teamwork.
For example, if someone disarms an opponent and Dušan picks up the weapon, it becomes invisible and takes it out of play for the disarmed opponent. Not an end all of the fight, but it can be crippling to a fighter-type class to lose their main weapon. Same principle if someone steals the enemy caster's spell component pouch.
@nicholas storm:
nicholas storm wrote:
If you are new to the game, pick a class and be 10th level in it. Multiclassing as you have suggested makes for a weak character.
I'm not new to the game. I started playing 3.0 in 2000, 3.5 in 2003, and Pathfinder in 2009. I think the "Multiclassing makes for a weak character." mentality is often wrong. Multiclassing via level dipping typically allows me to create more powerful characters within their area of specialization, but specialization is the key word.
This character wasn't designed to be a combat monster. I'm good at making those, but I don't want that for this character. I took the Sheltered drawback and Ustalavic Noble trait to help me create a flavorful character that comes from a place that most characters don't. He's not some tough guy who came from the streets or the wilds. He's not a man-at-arms, mercenary adventurer or fortune-seeker. He's a noble dreamer who has always loved to read and learn about the world around him. The Pathfinder Chronicles inspired him to go out, explore, and discover the world for himself.
@Tinalles:
Tinalles wrote:
The party is:
Human Barbarian
Human Ranger
Human Cleric
Human Sorcerer
Human Druid
Plus Dušan, of course. With a party that large, I think you can play anything you want, because basically all the normal bases are covered. The question is, what do you want to be?
You've got some decent knowledge skills. Those are always helpful.
I think "decent knowledge skills" may be a bit of an understatement. A typical level 10 character with any focus on knowledge skills may have 1-4 knowledge skills between 13 and 19, most likely around 16-18. Rolling produces a result of 14 to 39. This character will reliably produce a result of:
The goal of doing this is to ensure that the party gets as much story out of the Adventure Path as possible. So many times, as a GM, the PC's in my group put points into knowledge skills so that they can learn interesting things about the world and help flesh out their place within the setting, but fail to hit a sufficiently high DC to get the kind of information they're looking for. When dealing with locales like Ustalav, where the history is long and rich, and relics that have been buried in crypts and mausoleums for centuries, not to mention the kind of 'hard' DC's for level 10 PC's (typically ~40), I wanted to build a character that would have access to that info when the opportunity presented itself.
Tinalles wrote:
You've got good social skills. You'll probably be okay in social encounters -- IF you're the one rolling. My experience has been that it's more common for whoever is interested to jump straight in and start talking to the NPCs themselves, rather than deferring to the "face" in the party -- which is how you wind up with the Barbarian with a -2 Diplomacy score accidentally starting a bar fight just by asking for a glass of water while the bard face-palms in the corner.
I can certainly agree with you about the propensity of some PC's to jump in and talk with NPC's they're interested in, even if they aren't the party face, or are the party's anti-face as the case may be. I would never discourage other players from roleplaying their characters. With a good GM, I may be able to go back to the NPC for a private conversation if things went badly the first time. If not, then we get to have some good roleplay between PC's about what went wrong and what we can do to handle situations like it in the future. In past games, this has coined a phrase for our group, "You shut your whore mouth when the Rogue is talking!"
Tinalles wrote:
If you want to make yourself the party face, you're probably going to have to explicitly tell the other players to let Dušan handle negotiations, and even then it's probably going to run into issues when the NPCs choose to disregard Dušan in favor of talking directly to one of the other PCs. Which will happen, fairly often. It'd be pretty weird if all of the NPCs talked strictly to one character while the whole rest of the party sat in stony silence, watching.
If NPC's are approaching other PC's instead of my character, that is perfectly fine. If the GM decided that the NPC would be more interested in talking to the Cleric or Ranger, then the GM probably has a good reason for it. That doesn't mean my character couldn't chime in or that my character would be interested in talking to the NPC in the first place. I want the other players to be able to roleplay and develop relationships with NPC's as well.
Tinalles wrote:
You're reasonably good at disarming traps. And while there are traps in the game, they're not as common as all that, and you'll have to get your party accustomed to letting you go first and check for them, otherwise someone is just going to go barreling into one. Your Disable Device score is irrelevant if the party fighter sticks his big foot directly into it before you get there.
Again, I think "reasonably good" is an understatement. Amazing locks are DC 40 and this character can routinely open those(Take 10 from Master Explorer,+20 skill,+5 circumstance from Luminous Lockpicks, -2 from Wrecker, +5 competence from Goggles of Minute Seeing, and +2 from Locksmith armor). In urban and underground settings, I expect traps to be a bit more frequent than usual. With the Adeventure Path starting at 11th level, I'd expect about 5 or so traps and I'd expect 80% of those to be magical in nature. More than just traps though, Disable Device is also used for opening locks, which could grant us access to areas the GM wouldn't expect a party to normally be able to get into.
Tinalles wrote:
Your other abilities are so watered down that you're going to struggle to find anything useful to do in combat. Your offensive spells have such low save DCs that your opponents will probably pass most of the time. You haven't got a weapon, and if you did you'd stand little chance of hitting anything; at this level, with those to-hit bonuses, most of the time you'll need to roll a natural 20 to hit at all.
This is why I was asking for help in thinking of other (sometimes unconventional/non-traditional) ways of assisting, such as through Buffing, damage/debuffing via Burning Disarm, aiding action economy, creating obstacles/distractions on the battlefield, and post-combat healing to preserve the cleric's spell slots.
Tinalles wrote:
Buffing the party is probably your best bet. Save DCs don't matter when you spend your time giving helpful spells to your party, and then they can worry about hitting people. Unfortunately, your selection of buffs is pretty limited, and due to all the multi-classing, you don't get many spells per day, and they don't last long once cast.
Spells per day is easily circumvented by expendables, which are often ignored in favor of long-term investments or are limited to a handful of party-purchased expendables such as a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
Tinalles wrote:
Could you elaborate more on what you see your role in the party as? Because I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying for.
If you had to put a traditional role term to it, I'd say... a skill rogue... a face rogue... a non-dpr Rogue?
@Dave Justus:
Dave Justus wrote:
The party is big enough, that they can probably handle you being essentially a dead weight in combat. If that is ok with you, go ahead with what you are doing.
The character doesn't drag anyone down, so I'm loathe to call it a dead weight, but I get your meaning. The game is more than combat though and in a party this large, with all the bases covered, I'm okay sacrificing combat ability to explore other concepts, abilities, and roles.
Dave Justus wrote:
If you want to be an effective support caster though, you will probably do a whole let better with just a single class. Either bard or oracle could perform this role admirably.
I'm not trying to play a support caster. I'm just looking for uses of limited magical ability.
@Friendly Neighborhood Glabrezu:
Friendly Neighborhood Glabrezu wrote:
Any creature with blindsight can "see" through your cloud without a problem.
Blindsight is an exceptionally uncommon ability. At best, I would expect to see it ONCE in an Adeventure Path unless the path featured a group of creatures with Blindsight. Blindsense is slightly less uncommon, but I'd still group it in with Blindsight for expected number of appearances.
@Jack Rift:
Jack Rift wrote:
Go full bard and pick up trap finding (if you really want that) via the trait that gives it.
What does that at all have to do with the questions asked in this thread? You effectively just said, 'Scrap your character and make something else entirely.' In any case, the trait you're talking about is called Trap Finder, which is a campaign trait for the Mummy's Mask Adventure Path. Since we're playing the Carrion Crown Adventure Path, characters are ineligble to pick up that trait.
With divination spells, teleportation abilities, massiv encounter ending spell options - taking away one enemies weapon might be nice at low levels but by now this could be performed by any kind of improved familiar while Melees dish out more than 100 dmg per round and casters dropping wall spells, summons (each of which perform better in combat than your character) or just outright end the encounter with an appropriate spell.
I don't want to say you shouldn't play this kind of character but you need to communicate on what you plan to do. It is really,really easy to cover all things your sc is able to do on the fly at those levels. So maybe the others should know where to let you have your spotlight.
Further your GM need to know about your character in order to not calculate encounters for 6 capable character's. Pathfinder might nor be the game to create such an character without a lot of communication with the group to make it actually work and be fun.
Yes, yes I did just say scrap this idea, why, because you're trying for Jack of all trades master of none route. Problem is you are skipping either of the classes that do that and without bringing anything effective to an undead heavy horror campaign (I own the whole AP, have read it and played it). Those classes are either Bard or Investigator. Your few tricks you told us about would do fine for some of the low lvl encounters, but nothing else. Most of the critters where you're at have extra senses and natural attacks. Also, what wrecker gives you, move action mundane traps destruction, isn't worth the draw backs your taking in it's place. So yeah, scrap your idea and also tell us what your goal within the party is, then we can help a lot more.
Yes, I'm experienced with level 10+. I've run 2 campaigns that ended in the level 10-12 range. My last TPK happened in that range. My experience with the system has told me that combat characters tend to develop 1-2 round kill techniques between level 7 and 9. By the time the game reaches level 10, the system starts to break down, devolving into who gets the first attack and/or who fails their saving throw first.
Wasum wrote:
With divination spells, teleportation abilities, massiv encounter ending spell options - taking away one enemies weapon might be nice at low levels but by now this could be performed by any kind of improved familiar while Melees dish out more than 100 dmg per round and casters dropping wall spells, summons (each of which perform better in combat than your character) or just outright end the encounter with an appropriate spell.
From what you've said here, the plethora of options available to the other characters, particularly spell casters, to end encounters makes any other characters excessive. How many casters take Eschew Materials? How many fighters run around with more than one magic weapon on par with their main? Don't underestimate the value of low-level(basic) tactics. I've seen a 12th level paladin lose his mind over a rogue 2/cleric 2 disarming him of his +1 Holy Silver Rapier and keeping him from getting it back. There's a reason locked gauntlets are so valuable. The same goes for the Ghoul Rogue stealing the Cleric's holy symbol to prevent Channeling or casting certain spells.
Wasum wrote:
I don't want to say you shouldn't play this kind of character but you need to communicate on what you plan to do. It is really,really easy to cover all things your sc is able to do on the fly at those levels. So maybe the others should know where to let you have your spotlight.
Communication is the key to a good game. It's not like I'm just going to spring a character on the GM at the first session. If it is so easy to do what this character can do on the fly with the other characters in the party, please tell me specifically how, so I don't waste the effort.
@Jack Rift:
Jack Rift wrote:
Yes, yes I did just say scrap this idea, why, because you're trying for Jack of all trades master of none route. Problem is you are skipping either of the classes that do that and without bringing anything effective to an undead heavy horror campaign (I own the whole AP, have read it and played it). Those classes are either Bard or Investigator.
I'm not making a Jack of All Trades. This character is specialized in Knowledge skills, Face skills, and Trap skills. This is a SKILL-focused character. I think that what is most upsetting to so many people here is that I'm not making a combat character. If I was, I wouldn't be asking for help with that. I am very, very good at efficiently murdering my way through a game. As I've ALREADY said in this thread, I'm not asking for help in making a character that can keep up with the other party members in combat. I'm asking for ideas for how I can contribute to combat with what limited resources I do have.
Jack Rift wrote:
Also, what wrecker gives you, move action mundane traps destruction, isn't worth the draw backs your taking in it's place
Building the character at 10th level, yes, mundane trap destruction is pretty useless since most traps will now be magical. However, I was designing the character as though I'd have to play through the first 10 levels, where most traps are mechanical. I'm open to suggestions for a different Oracle curse that could have helped this character survive up until now and still be useful at 10th level.
Amazing Inspiration/Expanded Inspiration; adds 1-8+2 to all knowledge rolls. Average die roll is 10.5+4.5+2=17
Deific Obedience Irori is +4 to all knowledge rolls, tears to wine +5 to all INT rolls, heightened awareness +2 all knowledge rolls, heroism +2 all skills.
1 rank in a knowledge skill is 1+6+3+4+5+2+17+2=40; taking ten ranks in a knowledge skill is 49.
Half elf - skill focus disable device is +6, masterwork item +2, trap finder +5
10 ranks in disable device taking 10 is 10+3 (class skill)+6 (int) +6 (skill focus) +2 (mw) +5 (trap finder) +5 (tears to wine) +2 heroism +10 = 49
The advantage for single class is all extracts will work off of caster level 10. So heightened awareness, tears to wine, heroism all last 1hr 40 minutes.
11 Skills maz 10 points put around
Maxed Skills: 6 Monster Knowledges, UMD, Perception, Diplo, Sense Motive, Disable Device.
Basic Knowledge Calc:
10 Ranks + 6 Int + 3 Class skills + 4 Feats + 2(FCB) = 25
31 on the knowledge that you do have skill focus on.
Additional +2 on history, local. Intigrated +1 bonus on Bluff, Disguise, and Knowledge (local) checks. Keen Senses for +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
I think your build has 2 knowledge higher and all the rest lower this is fixed with the lore needle (see below) plus I have a d8 (FCB) inspiration.
Heroism, clear ears, pathfinder chronicals are all +2 each.
Lore Needle means you can 3 times per day use your best knowledge of any other. Ioun Stones For +2 to varisous skills (800gp).
Sorry for the rushed post hope this helps. This could be a lot better with Strength and armor prof, but I'm a sucker for dex investigators even though they are worse.
Your build for a specialized knowledge skill has
+6 from Int
+10 from Ranks
+3 from Class Bonus
+1d8+2 from Inspiration
+4 from Irori
+5 from Spell(Tears to Wine)
+2 from another Spell (Heightened Awareness)
+2 from yet another spell (Heroism)
+1d8+28 Total Bonus
D20+1d8+28 roll results in a range from 30 to 56.
If the target DC is 40, then this build has a 32.5% chance of failure. You can verify the percentage at AnyDice with output 1d20+1d8+28.
My build for a specialized knowledge skill(History as example) has
+6 from Int
+10 from Ranks
+3 from Class Bonus
+1d6 from Inspiration
+1 from Noble Scion of Lore
+1 from Human Comprehensive Education
+6 from Skill Focus
+2 from Teacher's Pet trait
+1 from Bardic Knowledge
+1d8+30 Total Bonus
(Eidetic Recollection)10+1d8+30 roll results in a range from 41 to 48.
If the target DC is 40, then this build has a 0% chance of failure.
I can also have access to all the spells you mentioned via scrolls(Thank you for pointing True Skill, avr.), but it seems wasteful since I can already hit my target DC without chance of failure.
For knowledge skills, your build only costs 2 of 4 Investigator talents, 2 of 7 1st level extracts per day and 1 of 4 3rd level extracts per day, but does apply to all your knowledge skills for the duration of those spells. Though your build would still have a 1/3 chance to fail a DC 40 check. Thematically, your character would worship a foreign god in an area that is fairly distrusting of outsiders, but at least they're an avid reader, constantly finding a new book to read every day to fulfill your obedience.
Disable Device skill breakdown:
Your build for the Disable Device skill has
+10 from Ranks
+3 from Class Bonus
+6 from Int and Empiricist archetype
+6 from Skill Focus
+2 from Masterwork Thieves Tools
+5 from Trapfinding Class Ability
+5 from Spell(Tears to Wine)
+2 from another Spell(Heroism)
+1d8+2 from Underworld Inspiration
+1d8+41 Total Bonus
D20+1d8+41 roll results in a range from 43 to 69.
If the target DC is 40, then this build has a 0% chance of failure.
Though your character can't take 10 with Disable Device on traps, this has the same chance of failure as my character build.
Perception skill breakdown:
+10 from Ranks
+3 from Class Bonus
+6 from Int and Empiricist archetype
+2 from Keen Senses racial ability
+5 from Spell(Tears to Wine)
+2 from another Spell(Heroism)
+2 from another Spell (Heightened Awareness)
+1d8+2 from Inspiration
+1d8+32 Total Bonus
D20+1d8+32 roll results in a range from 34 to 60.
If the target DC is 40, then this build has a 13.13% chance of failure. My character build currently has a range of 35 to...35. Your build has the advantage here.
Diplomacy skill breakdown:
+10 from Ranks
+3 from Class Bonus
+X from Charisma(The Empiricist archetype only applies to gathering info)
+5 from Spell(Tears to Wine)
+2 from another Spell(Heroism)
+1d8+20+X Total Bonus
D20+1d8+20+X roll results in a calculable range from 22 to 48.
If the target DC is 40, then this build has a 72.5% chance of failure. However, I can't say I've ever seen a Diplomacy DC this high in an Adventure Path. If we say the target DC is 30, which I have seen, then your build has a 22.5% chance of failure. Without magic, my build consistently hits a DC 31.
I can see where your minimal investment of resources into these abilities gives you room to excel in combat, while taking on a minor risk of failure for Knowledge, Perception, and Diplomacy skill checks. However, you've shown me how effective casting 3 spells can be to my current build, as well as changing out a few things to drop 2 levels of Empiricist. I'm going to try altering my spell list to make using these spells more feasible.
FYI neither build can get Eidetic Recollection until level 11 and you will never have class levels to do so nothing says you get to skip pre reqs.
This question has been asked many times for the Psychic Searcher, but no official answer has ever come down, to the best of my knowledge. Per the wording,
"At 3rd level, a psychic searcher’s mastery of her supernatural insight grows, granting her a new investigator talent from the following list: amazing inspiration, eidetic recollection, empathy, inspired alertness, item lore, perceptive tracking (except using Sense Motive instead of Perception or Survival), rogue talent (only for hard to fool), and tenacious inspiration. Whenever a psychic searcher can select a new revelation, she can instead select an investigator or rogue talent from the above list." This implies that Eidetic Recollection can be selected without regard to investigator level prerequisites, particularly since the list is extremely limited and there is no mention of oracle levels counting as investigator levels for purposes of qualifying for said prerequisites.
A strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. A fireball, flame strike, or similar spell burns away the fog in the explosive or fiery spell’s area. A wall of fire burns away the fog in the area into which it deals damage.
These become reasonablly common at level 10. I here get out of FIREBALL formation every game for good reason.
You knowledge break down uses your best knowledge your average ability to identify monsters is d20 + 17.5 (average based on the numbers in your first post). Compare all 6 important knowledge skills or all knowledge skills if you want to be as fair as possible.
In Eidetic Recollection nothing says ignore level requirements but I will agree it is unclear. I read it as the rule that is still written stands, unless there is an explicit exception (especially if I'm a player, I'm actually less strict as a GM) but your gm maybe allow this but I would ask out of curtsy. Also, the empiricist gets it next level so it is a moot point.
Also Consider a stright bard half elf cha and int. Take ten at level 5.
10 + 10 ranks + 3 Class skill + 5 1/2 level + Int 3 + 4 Irori + 1 Historian = 36 before gear or any other feats.
Have savant as a second trait for +2 to all perform checks.
Start with 18 Cha and be able to cast buffs and save or suck spells.
Inspire + Haste + Good Hope is a fine way to contribute. Give some rerolls on some saves etc.
If you play an elf with any of the above builds and get Breadth of Experience.
A strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. A fireball, flame strike, or similar spell burns away the fog in the explosive or fiery spell’s area. A wall of fire burns away the fog in the area into which it deals damage.
These become reasonablly common at level 10. I here get out of FIREBALL formation every game for good reason.
You're behind on posts. Ash Cloud was removed with the revision in favor of darkvision.
I said that more because it was not bought up and, it's worth remembering because every group should still have a few scrolls of obscuring mist or a wand of it.
It shuts down archery, chained rogues, evens the playing field when there is miss chance or obscured vision.
My character design philosophy is if you can build a well rounded character that has good defenses, skills, good offense, and spells/extracts, you are better off than someone who is slightly better than you at one aspect, but vastly worse at everything else.
My current investigator is a monk 1 (unchained)/investigator (lamplighter) 8. I was originally going to be an empiricist, but decided that initiative was way more important to me than being slightly better at disable device and diplomacy.
The last 5%-10% of optimization is almost never worthing imo. They often require you to give up a ton of defense and versatility. If you opt not to take that last 10% then you can be a second line striker, tank some damage do the barbarian is not the only one getting hit. Focusing fire is a good strategy for pcs and npcs don't make it easier for you enemies by only having 1 or 2 guys to hit.
I would likely drop amazing inspiration from my build, losing 1 on some checks and get infusion now you have a displaced Barbra in running around or give some shield out.
The ability to consistently hit skill checks in the 30s and low 40s will definitely be useful.
I hope you enjoy playing this character. That's really the ultimate test -- if you're having fun, it's a good character. If you're not having fun, then it's not a good PC regardless of how mechanically sound or flavorful it is.
