Titan Mauler (Jotun Grip) and Fighter (effortless dual-wielding)


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hi all, I couldn't find an answer to this problem

For the Barbarian archetype Titan Mauler:

"At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like."

And under the Fighter's Advanced Weapon Training:

"Effortless Dual-Wielding (Ex) The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons. Source PPC:BotB"

My question is: do the two-handed weapons under the weapon groups for Advance Weapon Training: Effortless Dual-Wielding fall under "and the like" for Jotungrip and are thus considered 'light weapons' in this case?

Thanks.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I believe it would work. You could dual wield 2 greatswords this way, but bear in mind that you take an extra -2 penalty from the Titan Mauler ability. So you'll still be at a -4.

Whereas a single class fighter could use 2 one-handed weapons (with a d8 being the highest damage dice) with only a -2 penalty. The difference between 1d8 and 2d6 is 4.5 vs 7. So 3.5 per weapon, or 7 points of damage total. Every 1 point of accuracy is worth about 2 points of damage (based on power attack, and some other math) so you lost 4 collective points of accuracy (2 per weapon) which is worth 8 points of damage. On average, doing this will net you less damage. Not including the few rounds of rage you have each day.


Jotungrip doesn't turn 2h weapons into 1h weapons. It allows a character to use a 2h weapon in one hand. I don't think this kind of transference would work unless the rules said "any weapon that can be wielded in one hand."


I mean Jotungrip does state "it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like" so I think that could cover this Bladelock


Isn't it more efficient high STR and a two handed weapon hold with 2 hands than this 'weird' combination that needs a lot of DEX? You can't dip into rogue for DEX to damage anyway.

(I'm too lazy to do the math right now)


William Werminster wrote:

Isn't it more efficient high STR and a two handed weapon hold with 2 hands than this 'weird' combination that needs a lot of DEX? You can't dip into rogue for DEX to damage anyway.

(I'm too lazy to do the math right now)

You can dip ranger for 2 weapon fighting.

It would look something like this:

Melee +3 furious greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+22/17-20), +3 furious greatsword +13 (2d6+18/17-20)

Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Dwarf barbarian (titan mauler) 2/fighter 5/ranger 2 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 30)
CG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Hero Points 1
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +1 (+3 to notice unusual stonework)
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 7, touch 7, flat-footed 7 (-2 rage, -1 untyped penalty)
hp 93 (9 HD; 7d10+2d12+38)
Fort +14, Ref +4, Will +6 (+1 vs. fear); +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +3 furious greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+22/17-20), +3 furious greatsword +13 (2d6+18/17-20)
Special Attacks combat style (two-weapon combat), favored enemy (goblinoids +2), hatred, rage (14 rounds/day), rage powers (lesser infernal blood[ACG], reckless abandon[APG]), weapon training (heavy blades +1)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +14; CMD 23 (27 vs. bull rush, 27 vs. trip)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Combat Stamina, Extra Rage, Extra Rage Power[APG], Improved Critical (greatsword), Iron Will, Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Skills Acrobatics +0 (-4 to jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones), Perception +1 (+3 to notice unusual stonework); Racial Modifiers +2 Appraise to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones, +2 Perception to notice unusual stonework
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ armor training 1, big game hunter, hero points, improved critical, jotungrip, power attack, track +1, two-weapon fighting, weapon focus, weapon specialization, wild empathy +1
Other Gear +1 furious greatsword, +1 furious greatsword
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.

Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.

Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Big Game Hunter (Ex) +1 to hit and +1 dodge bonus to AC vs. foes larger than self.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs. monsters of the Giant subtype.
Effortless Dual-Wielding (Weapon Training [Blades, Heavy] +1) (Ex) Treat selected weapon group as light for determining dual-wielding penalties.
Favored Enemy (Goblinoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs. goblinoids foes.
Greed +2 to Appraise to determine price of nonmagic goods with precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs. Goblinoids/Orcs.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Critical [Combat Trick] 5 stamina points to roll another confirmation roll for double damage after a failed critical hit.
Infernal Blood, Lesser (3/day) (Su) When raging, melee attack gain flaming for 1 round.
Jotungrip (Ex) Wield 2 handed weapon of appropriate size in 1 hand, but take -2 penalty.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Power Attack [Combat Trick] 2 stamina points to use Power Attack only until end of turn, instead of the start of the next turn.
Rage (14 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Reckless Abandon (+/-1) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs. unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat Trick] Reduce two-weapon fighting penalty for primary hand by 1 for every 2 stamina spent.
Weapon Focus [Combat Trick] 2 stamina points to gain Weapon Focus bonus on another weapon for 1 rd.
Weapon Specialization [Combat Trick] 2 stamina points to apply Weapon Specialization to another weapon.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Wild Empathy +1 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.


If you want to use up 2 feats, you can lower the penalties for two weapon fighting with Hand's Autonomy


This could make for a fun build with enlarge person and impact greatswords to get 4D6 per swing. still not the best optimization but the principle seems to work.


you know whats really scary here? if this does works, it means that a titan mauler with 19 str could duel wield (butcher axes?) for 3d6+3 (without other bonuses) with each hit.

edit: then add bonuses and enlarge...0_o

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To clarify, there is no point at which the weapons themselves change to fit the "One Handed" category. They are still Two Handed weapons, no matter how the character wields them. The off hand needs to have a One Handed or Light weapon when TWF.

To be sure, if such a situation allows for the double wielding of Two Handed weapons, it would likely impose another -2 for the option, making the least amount of penalties be at -6/-6 to effect.

Edit.

To directly answer the question, no, it does not. If the GM allows it, the likely penalty would be at -8/-8, and the weapon would not be considered a light weapon. It is a Two Handed Weapon.


thaX wrote:

To clarify, there is no point at which the weapons themselves change to fit the "One Handed" category. They are still Two Handed weapons, no matter how the character wields them. The off hand needs to have a One Handed or Light weapon when TWF.

To be sure, if such a situation allows for the double wielding of Two Handed weapons, it would likely impose another -2 for the option, making the least amount of penalties be at -6/-6 to effect.

Edit.

To directly answer the question, no, it does not. If the GM allows it, the likely penalty would be at -8/-8, and the weapon would not be considered a light weapon. It is a Two Handed Weapon.

The fighter Advanced Training "Effortless Dual Weld" allows you to use 1h weapons as if they were light weapons. So you could use 2 Bastard swords with it because it is a one handed weapon if you have the exotic feat.

Sah wrote:
I mean Jotungrip does state "it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like" so I think that could cover this Bladelock

Despite being able to use a 2h weapon in 1h, and the effects of feats reflecting that, the weapon never becomes a 1h weapon.

A similar example would be that you can hold a longsword in 2 hands and get 1.5 strength damage from it. Just because it is held in 2hands doesn't change it from a 1h weapon into a 2h weapon.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

We don’t have a FAQ to confirm the change.

So how and whether or not “you use as if one handed” and “you use a one handed as if light” even stack isn’t a known thing. Ask your GM.

We have many dev comments saying interlinked things like this don’t work, such as new ways to use an ability not working with other new ways to use abilities.


I'm fairly certain this works.

Effortless Dual-Wielding wrote:
The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.

So my Fighter/Barbarian takes Effortless Dual-Wielding with the Heavy Blades Weapon Group.

Heavy Blades:
aldori dueling sword, ankus, bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, estoc, falcata, falchion, flambard, great terbutje, greatsword, katana, khopesh, klar, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, rhoka sword, sawtooth sabre, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, two-bladed sword

Jotungrip allows me to...

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Relevant FAQ

FAQ

FAQ wrote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

I'm fairly certain Effortless Dual-Wielding falls under "other effects".

The Greatsword never actually changes to a 1-Handed Weapon but it doesn't need to be to pick Effortless Dual-Wielding for that Weapon Group.

All that should matter is that Effortless Dual-Wielding requires a "one-handed weapon" for the ability to be used and Jotungrip treats the Greatsword as a one-handed weapon.


A fun build could be 2nd Barbarian(Titan Mauler)/3rd Unchained Rogue/5th Fighter (Weapon Master).

Take Effortless Dual-Wielding and Fighter's Finesse and use Finesse Training with Greatsword.

DEX Based Dual-Wield Greatsword Dervish. lol


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

A fun build could be 2nd Barbarian(Titan Mauler)/3rd Unchained Rogue/5th Fighter (Weapon Master).

Take Effortless Dual-Wielding and Fighter's Finesse and use Finesse Training with Greatsword.

DEX Based Dual-Wield Greatsword Dervish. lol

You can only take 1 advanced weapon training per 5 fighter levels - so it's possible but it wouldn't come online until level 15.... which is way to late to really be any fun.


Ckorik wrote:
Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

A fun build could be 2nd Barbarian(Titan Mauler)/3rd Unchained Rogue/5th Fighter (Weapon Master).

Take Effortless Dual-Wielding and Fighter's Finesse and use Finesse Training with Greatsword.

DEX Based Dual-Wield Greatsword Dervish. lol

You can only take 1 advanced weapon training per 5 fighter levels - so it's possible but it wouldn't come online until level 15.... which is way to late to really be any fun.
Advanced Weapon Training (Feat) wrote:
Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels.Special: Fighters that have the weapon masterAPG archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master’s advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can’t select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.

So 4th Fighter Weapon Master you can use the Fighter Bonus feat to get it and at 5th you can get another taking the feat, but that one counts towards the 1 per 5 levels.


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

I'm fairly certain this works.

Effortless Dual-Wielding wrote:
The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.

So my Fighter/Barbarian takes Effortless Dual-Wielding with the Heavy Blades Weapon Group.

** spoiler omitted **

Jotungrip allows me to...

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Relevant FAQ

FAQ

FAQ wrote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

I'm fairly certain Effortless Dual-Wielding falls under "other effects".

The Greatsword never actually changes to a 1-Handed Weapon but it doesn't need to be to pick Effortless Dual-Wielding for that Weapon Group.

All that should matter is that Effortless Dual-Wielding requires a...

I didn't see that FAQ. I find it unlikely they meant to use such sweeping language with it. That being said, it is pretty compelling. Based on that I will take back my previous comments. It looks like this does work.


As a sidebar, i think using the phrasing "and the like" as a rules element is even worse than "for effects." If it was just referencing power attack you could at least scope "like things" to feats but to also loop in such a fundamental rules aspect as strength to damage means the "like" in this is basically anything in the rules system.


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

So 4th Fighter Weapon Master you can use the Fighter Bonus feat to get it and at 5th you can get another taking the feat, but that one counts towards the 1 per 5 levels.

Interesting - that doesn't - however - overcome the fact that the rogue finesse training requires a finesse weapon -

Quote:
The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option

Note here that it gives the benefits - but doesn't actually change the weapon for other effects like say 'slashing grace' does. Take that and the rogue ability that says:

Quote:

Finesse Training (Ex)

At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

So the fighter ability allows you to use weapon finesse - but doesn't change the weapon for the rogue ability to interact with. I think.

:)


Finesse Training only cares about this; "can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse".

If the Fighter has Fighter's Finesse.

"The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option."

I'm not seeing the issue.

The Fighter can use Weapon Finesse with weapons in the Weapon Group.

If the Fighter takes Fighter's Finesse (Heavy Blades) they could use Weapon Finesse with say a Scimitar.

Finesse Training only cares that i can use a weapon with Weapon Finesse.


Sir_Andrew wrote:

you know whats really scary here? if this does works, it means that a titan mauler with 19 str could duel wield (butcher axes?) for 3d6+3 (without other bonuses) with each hit.

edit: then add bonuses and enlarge...0_o

were do you find that weapon?


Lady-J wrote:
Sir_Andrew wrote:

you know whats really scary here? if this does works, it means that a titan mauler with 19 str could duel wield (butcher axes?) for 3d6+3 (without other bonuses) with each hit.

edit: then add bonuses and enlarge...0_o

were do you find that weapon?

Adventurer's Armory 2


Gisher wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Sir_Andrew wrote:

you know whats really scary here? if this does works, it means that a titan mauler with 19 str could duel wield (butcher axes?) for 3d6+3 (without other bonuses) with each hit.

edit: then add bonuses and enlarge...0_o

were do you find that weapon?
Adventurer's Armory 2

any link to the weapon itself?


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

Finesse Training only cares about this; "can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse".

If the Fighter has Fighter's Finesse.

"The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option."

I'm not seeing the issue.

The Fighter can use Weapon Finesse with weapons in the Weapon Group.

If the Fighter takes Fighter's Finesse (Heavy Blades) they could use Weapon Finesse with say a Scimitar.

Finesse Training only cares that i can use a weapon with Weapon Finesse.

Perhaps - I can see what you are trying to say - I think it's less clearcut than the OP's question though. You can easily say that 'gaining the benefits of' weapon finesse doesn't actually make the weapon a finesse weapon - it just lets you pretend it is - as silly as that is - it's also not a new type of rules construct.


Lady-J wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Sir_Andrew wrote:

you know whats really scary here? if this does works, it means that a titan mauler with 19 str could duel wield (butcher axes?) for 3d6+3 (without other bonuses) with each hit.

edit: then add bonuses and enlarge...0_o

were do you find that weapon?
Adventurer's Armory 2
any link to the weapon itself?

Not yet - it's brand new.


Ckorik wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Sir_Andrew wrote:

you know whats really scary here? if this does works, it means that a titan mauler with 19 str could duel wield (butcher axes?) for 3d6+3 (without other bonuses) with each hit.

edit: then add bonuses and enlarge...0_o

were do you find that weapon?
Adventurer's Armory 2
any link to the weapon itself?
Not yet - it's brand new.

guess ill have to wait then


Ckorik wrote:
Perhaps - I can see what you are trying to say - I think it's less clearcut than the OP's question though. You can easily say that 'gaining the benefits of' weapon finesse doesn't actually make the weapon a finesse weapon - it just lets you pretend it is - as silly as that is - it's also not a new type of rules construct.

What makes a weapon a "Finesse Weapon"?

"Finesse Weapon" isn't a weapon quality.

If you can use Weapon Finesse with a weapon that's all that matters.

Scarab Sages

Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Perhaps - I can see what you are trying to say - I think it's less clearcut than the OP's question though. You can easily say that 'gaining the benefits of' weapon finesse doesn't actually make the weapon a finesse weapon - it just lets you pretend it is - as silly as that is - it's also not a new type of rules construct.

What makes a weapon a "Finesse Weapon"?

"Finesse Weapon" isn't a weapon quality.

If you can use Weapon Finesse with a weapon that's all that matters.

A light weapon, or a weapon that specifies it can be used with weapon finesse. (Rapier, Spiral Rapier, whip, aldori dueling sword, elven curve blade, elven branch spear, estoc, and spiked chain.)


Imbicatus wrote:
Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Perhaps - I can see what you are trying to say - I think it's less clearcut than the OP's question though. You can easily say that 'gaining the benefits of' weapon finesse doesn't actually make the weapon a finesse weapon - it just lets you pretend it is - as silly as that is - it's also not a new type of rules construct.

What makes a weapon a "Finesse Weapon"?

"Finesse Weapon" isn't a weapon quality.

If you can use Weapon Finesse with a weapon that's all that matters.

A light weapon, or a weapon that specifies it can be used with weapon finesse. (Rapier, Spiral Rapier, whip, aldori dueling sword, elven curve blade, elven branch spear, estoc, and spiked chain.)

Okay, so a Fighter with Fighter's Finesse can use Weapon Finesse with the chosen Weapon Group.

So that would count for Finesse Training from Unchained Rogue.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Bladelock wrote:
Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

I'm fairly certain this works.

Effortless Dual-Wielding wrote:
The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.

So my Fighter/Barbarian takes Effortless Dual-Wielding with the Heavy Blades Weapon Group.

** spoiler omitted **

Jotungrip allows me to...

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Relevant FAQ

FAQ

FAQ wrote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

I'm fairly certain Effortless Dual-Wielding falls under "other effects".

The Greatsword never actually changes to a 1-Handed Weapon but it doesn't need to be to pick Effortless Dual-Wielding for that Weapon Group.

All that should matter is that Effortless Dual-Wielding requires a...

I didn't see that FAQ. I find it unlikely they meant to use such sweeping language with it. That being said, it is pretty compelling. Based on that I will take back my previous comments. It looks like this does work.

It isn't that sweeping. A Bastard Sword is a One Handed weapon on the weapons chart, which is forgotten some of the time.


thaX wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

I'm fairly certain this works.

Effortless Dual-Wielding wrote:
The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.

So my Fighter/Barbarian takes Effortless Dual-Wielding with the Heavy Blades Weapon Group.

** spoiler omitted **

Jotungrip allows me to...

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Relevant FAQ

FAQ

FAQ wrote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

I'm fairly certain Effortless Dual-Wielding falls under "other effects".

The Greatsword never actually changes to a 1-Handed Weapon but it doesn't need to be to pick Effortless Dual-Wielding for that Weapon Group.

All that should matter is that Effortless Dual-Wielding requires a...

I didn't see that FAQ. I find it unlikely they meant to use such sweeping language with it. That being said, it is pretty compelling. Based on that I will take back my previous comments. It looks like this does work.
It isn't that sweeping. A Bastard Sword is a One Handed weapon on the weapons chart, which is...

That doesn't matter.

The example given in the FAQ is using a Bastard Sword One-Handed without the Exotic Weapon Prof. Meaning it's a Two-Handed Weapon being used with Jotungrip and being treated as a One-Handed Weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Your reading to much into it. The character is able to use the sword One Handed through another means. He is taking a -2 penalty to do so.

Other effects include the static damage (1.0 str mod), feats that change for how the weapon is wielded (lower damage for Power Attack), and other like effects.

This feat is looking at what the weapon is, not how it is wielded. Still a Two Handed weapon, with the exception of the Bastard Sword.

Going in the opposite direction, if a character wields a One Handed weapon with both hands, he gets Two Handed effects for that weapon, for Strength bonus, feats like Power Attack, and the like. That is what that FAQ is clarifying, the same type of effect with the Two Handed weapon getting the One Handed effort.

The weapon itself does not change.


thaX wrote:

Your reading to much into it. The character is able to use the sword One Handed through another means. He is taking a -2 penalty to do so.

Other effects include the static damage (1.0 str mod), feats that change for how the weapon is wielded (lower damage for Power Attack), and other like effects.

This feat is looking at what the weapon is, not how it is wielded. Still a Two Handed weapon, with the exception of the Bastard Sword.

Going in the opposite direction, if a character wields a One Handed weapon with both hands, he gets Two Handed effects for that weapon, for Strength bonus, feats like Power Attack, and the like. That is what that FAQ is clarifying, the same type of effect with the Two Handed weapon getting the One Handed effort.

The weapon itself does not change.

I don't really understand what your saying? Or why?

I didn't say the weapon changed at all.


Treated as doesn't mean is. Effortless lace requires a weapon that is, not treated as.

Ok let's put it this way. If you need to enchant a weapon but it need a to be a light weapon, and you treat something as a light weapon but pass it to your friend, what happens?

Fact is, never was a light weapon in the first place. It couldn't be enchanted as one. It just was in your hands.

Same thing here. Treat as doesn't mean is.


Cavall wrote:

Treated as doesn't mean is. Effortless lace requires a weapon that is, not treated as.

Ok let's put it this way. If you need to enchant a weapon but it need a to be a light weapon, and you treat something as a light weapon but pass it to your friend, what happens?

Fact is, never was a light weapon in the first place. It couldn't be enchanted as one. It just was in your hands.

Same thing here. Treat as doesn't mean is.

But taking Effortless Dual-Wielding isn't reliant on what the weapon actually is.

Effortless Dual-Wielding (Heavy Blades) is a valid option.

And with Jotungrip it's treated as a One-Handed Weapon and is in the weapon group.

Obviously I could be wrong. But it definitely looks like it works.


Well.lets be clear about that.

1. No, it isn't a valid option. It's a valid option to treat all one handed blades as valid. Scythe and bastard sword and others aren't one handed.

2. It treats them as light for one purpose only. Penalties for offhand. Not in anything else. (A good thing for power attack, actually.)

3. Treated as doesn't mean is. Maybe for bonuses and penalties. But if something says "needs to be this" we can't take something like it and call it that.

So sadly (well in the case of many DMs sanity) that's a good thing.


Cavall , I just want to point out bastard swords are one handed weapons. I don't know enough about everything else to continue on the discussion, I just felt it was important to point out.


Cavall wrote:
1. No, it isn't a valid option. It's a valid option to treat all one handed blades as valid. Scythe and bastard sword and others aren't one handed.

Yes it is a valid option. Please provide citation in the rules.

If I take Effortless-Dual Wielding (Heavy Blades), I most certainly can use Jotungrip (regardless that i Don't have the Exotic Weapon Prof) to treat it as a One-Handed Weapon and use the ability.

FAQ1

FAQ1 wrote:
A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.

FAQ2

FAQ2 wrote:

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

FAQ2 wrote:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

If I don't have Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword) it's a Two-Handed Martial Weapon.

So I have an example of using a Two-Handed Martial Weapon (Bastard Sword) with Jotungrip and it works. It's even called out in the damn FAQ.

Also if you want to refute me, maybe I'm missing something.Please provide rules text or a FAQ. I don't accept opinions.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It is a One Handed weapon that needs to be used with Two Hands for those that don't have the training to use it One Handed. This is what is confusing about Bastard Swords and why the parallel with regular Two Handed Weapons can be deceiving.

The main thing that the faq is relaying is that the weapon is used with various abilities as it is wielded, despite it's own weapon designation. So when Power Attack is being used, it depends on how the character wields the weapon as to how much the bonus to damage is given, One Handed (+2 for each -1 penalty to hit) or Two Handed (+3 for each -1 to hit).

The feat in question isn't looking at how the weapon is wielded, but the designation of the weapon itself. The Bastard Sword is One Handed, despite the rules for it's particular circumstance, so being able to use it in One Hand, with Exotic Weapon Proficentcy, or with the Grip, makes it able to be used with this combination.

Other Two Handed weapons, however, are still Two Handed Weapons, and would not work.

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