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meh AC is whatever at high level.
AC is the least thing to worry about in high levels.
Most of the best spells/abilities out there, just target saves directly or conditions.
Like Power Word: Kill when someone has 100 and less hp, they just die, no saves, spell resistance yes but that's pretty much it.
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I usually slap the Advanced template on everything they face - and add some lower level mooks. The mooks extend the combat a round or two, giving the big-bad a chance to have a little fun before they go down.
As for what to have them face - look for things that fight their weaknesses, but remember, they're building carefully, so they should stomp things once in a while. Not every fight should be tough. Some should be fairly easy - just for fun!
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Looking at the Gamemastering section in the CRB, there is a table as follows:
Easy APL –1
Average APL
Challenging APL +1
Hard APL +2
Epic APL +3
So, an even APL fight should be about average for a party of 4 pcs. There is a lot of good information on that page that should be able to help!
Generally 6 PCs instead of 4 PCs adds 1 to the APL (because of Action Economy) and fights with Multiple Monsters are pretty good in terms of action economy vs a party of a bigger size.
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Don't worry about a 15th level monk, even if he is optimized to the brink he won't be as disruptive as a Wizard who knows his spells... ;)
Melee MUST be optimized to compete with 9th level casters...
And I can't see how his AC can go so high that a CR 15 will not be able to touch him with a +28 to touch... ;)
More than that almost every CR 15 monsters got spells or spell-like abilities that are way more annoying than 2 claws and a bite... :p
And that's just Monsters... Not a lvl 15 Evil Wizard... :p
Frankly said, min/maxing should be an all or nothing at a table... All character should do it or none should do it... ;)
If a character become really more powerful than the others that can become problematic... If you put normal CR for the group the optimized character can render these encounters trivial since he will be too powerful for them... And if you up the CR for the more powerful character then the others are at risk of loosing their life against too powerful ennemies... ;)
My current group is min/maxed, but all 4 of my players are maxed out... So no issues with this... I just have to rewrite all the encounters in the AP to make them on par with my players... I min/max my monsters and all ennemies too... :p
That chart is a bit weird and not that helpful in my opinion. certain stats like AC it seems to have much lower than a PC can easily achieve and then others (ability DC) are in the upper end of cheesy high.... DC39 from a level 20 PC is very uncommon. I mean 36 Casting stat + Level 9 Spell + Spell focus and SFG + Perfect Spell nets you 36....
Meanwhile an AC of 43 is great?
CR20 Ancient Time Dragons Attack routine 38/38/38/35/35/35
yeah any higher than 43 is soooooo overkill. Or your too hit 34 is tip top? the Apostate Devil (CR17) has AC 46, so your best attack is hitting something 3 CR under you on a 12.... yeah good job, you OP.
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As others have said, AC becomes almost meaningless after about level 12. Far more important are your saving throws and hit points, and even then death usually means little more than the cost of a scroll of Breath of Life.
You have a 15th level optimized monk. This probably means he has +15 or higher to his saving throws and SR 25. He likely has somewhere in the range of 150 hit points too.
Let's assume you have a planned scenario to run through. I like to build mine using Strolen's 5 Room Dungeon template. Usually you'd build it with a CR standard encounter as the first fight, a trap or puzzle or riddle or some kind of non-combat encounter next, a setback or trick fight after this and then your big climactic battle before the reward.
Let's go with a dragon hunt for our theme here. Our dragon's holed up inside a cave/ancient dwarven ruin.
For our CR 15 appropriate fight, we'll have the entrance to our dragon's cave guarded by a cult of kobold devotees who worship our dragon big boss as a god. Start with some cannon fodder CR 5 kobold warriors with longbows. Eight of these shooting arrows equates to CR 9. These guys probably have 16 Dex and +7 BAB, masterwork weapons and weapon focus in their weapon. All up they'll be getting about +12 to hit on their attacks. At most they'll pepper the spellcasters with arrows to force concentration checks, but their real purpose is to soak up special attacks and spells.
That leaves us a fair bit more play for additional pieces on the board. A let's add a second CR 9 enemy this time, maybe an elite kobold cavalier riding his mount into battle. A bit meatier than the others and he can add his teamwork feats to the cannon fodder to grant them a few bonuses. He might last one or two rounds depending on tactics.
Next let's add a CR 11 kobold bard. He can buff his allies and debuff the party, tossing stuff like Glitterdust to break invisibility or other battlefield control spells, or try his luck with a few enchantment spells like Dominate Person. At most these would be a DC 20 Will save (18 Cha + 4th level spell +2 from feats or +Cha gear) so it'd be about 25% chance of failure for most PCs.
Finally, lets add a CR 13 kobold sorcerer. 14th class level gives him up to 7th level spells. Mass Hold Person, Power Word Blind, and so forth can drastically alter the fight. Reverse Gravity can leave your problem Monk spinning helplessly in the air for a couple of minutes with no saving throw. The DC for his 7th level spells should be in the ballpark of 22-24 so there's a good chance they'll land 50% of the time vs. the PCs even on their good saves.
All up, this makes a CR 15 encounter with eight CR 5 cannon fodder to distract the spellcasters, a CR 9 melee distraction, a CR 11 buffer and battlefield controller, and a CR 13 force multiplier. They'll have 11 actions vs. your group's 5, but with most being distractions. No real risk of a TPK but your players will probably spend 6 rounds cleaning up all the goons at the entrance, and should burn about 20% of their daily abilities. Don't forget to add pre-buffs to the creatures too, typically anything measured in more than rounds/level, and give them strong battlefield positioning with plenty of hard cover bonuses and difficult terrain for the PCs.
So, the second encounter is your puzzle or trap. Mundane traps out the PRB are fine. Maybe two CR 10 Summon Monster IX traps to whistle up 1d3 Elder Fire Elementals each. Perhaps there's additional hazards too. Flammable barrels of oil that explode, eight CR 7 Fireball traps that the elementals deliberately set off, pretty much anything that pushes the group to pop off their fire protection spells early before the boss.
Third encounter is your trick or setback. I've been wanting to use the Spellgorged Zombie template from Tome of Horrors for ages now, so let's make some fun happen. CR 7 for each zombie gives us up to 20 levels of spells per zombie. I think that's a bit overkill, as I want quantity rather than quality, so let's go with 9 HD zombies for up to a 9th level spell for each. Each are a CR 4, so we can throw a swarm of zombies at the group! We can even bump their HD up to 11 without adversely affecting their CR. We can have 32 CR 4 zombies as a CR 14 encounter, or 64 CR 4 zombies as a CR 16 encounter.
So now pick any and all spells you like from the spell lists and store them in the zombies. The Harm spell is a great example here. Each 9 HD zombie could have one use of the Harm spell stored inside it. Using the ability is a Supernatural effect and doesn't therefore provoke an attack of opportunity. It's been programmed to run up to any invaders and use Harm as a melee touch attack for 150 points or damage on a failed save or 75 points of damage on a successful save. Oh, and what about the additional unused levels? Why not have the extra 3 spell levels store a Dispel Magic that it shoots off at the PCs beforehand? How will they handle 32 targeted Dispel Magic effects in one round?
That's just one option too. Perhaps some of them instead have a Cloudkill stored inside them, or a few Enervations? Curse? Fleshworm Infestation? Unholy Blight? Creativity is key here, and it's a great way to play up the horror aspect of being swarmed by dozens and dozens of rotting zombies, especially when the players don't know what horrible ability the next few will have hidden inside them.
Then finally, we reach the boss battle. In this case, let's just have two big hitters and a CR 18 rating on the battle. Number one is our big bad CR 16 Advanced Mature Adult Red Dragon, and number two is his CR 16 kobold 17th level cleric high priest. Big bad dragon does the attacking and tanking, his pocket cleric heals him and throws out spells, summoned monsters and anything a spellcaster with 9th level spell access can muster. If you want to pad out the encounter even more, let your cleric have a Greater Planar Ally CR 17 Marilith Demon to push the encounter to maximum difficulty.
I don't think your group, even if optimized, would steamroll that type of a dungeon.
Advice piece #1: Start at first level.
What stat array have you allowed? 15 is the balance point for Pathfinder adventures.
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Math aside, make the encounter more than a toe-to-toe slugfest.
Add enemy archers that are hidden behind arrow slits. Give the bad guy a trap he can spring on the PCs. Add some kind of countdown that makes the PCs have to do something before time X or Very Bad Things happen. Threaten hostages or innocents. Provide interesting terrain that the bad guys can exploit to their advantage. Steal the "lair actions" idea from 5E. More mooks. Have all the dead mooks suddenly rise as zombies or ghouls or vamprie spawn.
If the bad guy has put up enough obstacles for the PCs to get through before they reach him, then it doesn't matter if he has a glass jaw when they do.
What stat array have you allowed? 15 is the balance point for Pathfinder adventures.
Whichever Dev said that was talking out of their ass. I've always found 15 to not be balanced at all for adventures, and usually to the detriment of particular classes who need more than one stat to function. Often it's due to being stretched thin ability score wise, which forces optimization to prevent being utterly useless beyond the early levels.
Monks and UMonk, as someone mentioned, actually hurt the most from a 15 point buy unless you play one of the archetypes that use a single stat for everything (like Zen Archer and Sensei). I have played 15 point buy for years and never, ever seen a monk, nor have I thought one could function. But I have seen plenty of casters do just fine, because they are single stat dependant and they honestly couldn't care less about point buy so long as they have a high casting stat, which is possible even at 10 point buy.
Suffice to say, 15 point buy won't just reign in a monk's power. It's a death sentence to their effectiveness at higher levels. For other classes, it just makes them extremely uninteresting and lack versatility or depth, and doesn't actually positively or negatively impact their ability to do their thing. You can make a martial with solid defensive and offensive power with 15. But they are going to only function in a combat scenario, nothing else.
Haven't seen mention of the obvious points:
Movement modes. Monsters often have methods of getting around that the PCs either can't match or can only match up briefly, if at all. (This varies wildly - a druid can wild shape all kinds of movement modes, 'though most can't outrun a dragon in the air.)
Environmental factors matter. Choking smoke, no clear easy footpaths, super slippery ice, enemies that refuse to let the BSF get an easy entry into melee, d-door dimensional assault/dervish specs, it gets nasty at high levels. Then of course there are critters that if the PCs aren't buffed to the gills will destroy them, but if they are buffed they'll mop the floor with them. I'd pay reasonable attention to what kinds of bad habits they have regarding being "Buffed". One point of note: DC 20-25 or so Perception before distance penalties lets those that can make the check note all of those tasty abjuration fields at play across so many targets.
If they slather on a full suite of mind blank spells, then the characters themselves lose access to morale bonuses of all sorts and I think their own divinations cease working as well.
Most 'buffs' only last 15-30 minutes at this level of play ... and a CR 18 against APL 16'ish can easily have a disjunction scroll tucked into a pocket for stripping down ALL of their buffs. Just ignore the part about whacking their permanent magic items and get the fight going.
What stat array have you allowed? 15 is the balance point for Pathfinder adventures.Whichever Dev said that was talking out of their ass. I've always found 15 to not be balanced at all for adventures, and usually to the detriment of particular classes who need more than one stat to function.
Some mantras never die. It may have been true in the early days when the expansion options were limited and modules and AP's were mostly core plus their internal stuff (well, maybe not ever true for the Monk). As the game expands, the options expand, and everything escalates including the minimum height necessary to ride.
Yeah, for whatever reason Paizo's core and AP lines stubbornly adhere to 15PB for all things, despite the fact that their "sanctioned and official" PFS goes by 20PB because someone proved their point buy math wrong.
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Yeah, for whatever reason Paizo's core and AP lines stubbornly adhere to 15PB for all things, despite the fact that their "sanctioned and official" PFS goes by 20PB because someone proved their point buy math wrong.
Ostensibly, it's 20PB to mitigate the standard assumption that PFS parties are made up of players who don't know each other, and therefore won't necessarily work as well as a team as can happen otherwise.
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Some mantras never die. It may have been true in the early days when the expansion options were limited and modules and AP's were mostly core plus their internal stuff (well, maybe not ever true for the Monk). As the game expands, the options expand, and everything escalates including the minimum height necessary to ride.
Hey look at all these shiny new options!
*notices all of the ability score requirements*
Awe man!
Environmental factors matter. Choking smoke, no clear easy footpaths, super slippery ice, enemies that refuse to let the BSF get an easy entry into melee, d-door dimensional assault/dervish specs, it gets nasty at high levels. Then of course there are critters that if the PCs aren't buffed to the gills will destroy them, but if they are buffed they'll mop the floor with them. I'd pay reasonable attention to what kinds of bad habits they have regarding being "Buffed". One point of note: DC 20-25 or so Perception before distance penalties lets those that can make the check note all of those tasty abjuration fields at play across so many targets.
Actually, if this is a UMonk that is the problem here, a lot of monk abilities outright disregard many of these obstacles. Particularly Abundant Step, which allows them to use Dimensional Dervish as well and bypass many barriers an opponent has up. Additionally Umonks have insane defensive power to boot. This works generally against fighters, but monks possess a great deal of mobility methods that other martials don't have, and a lot of their protections come from their own features, much like a paladin.
If they slather on a full suite of mind blank spells, then the characters themselves lose access to morale bonuses of all sorts and I think their own divinations cease working as well.
That isn't how mind blank works. It doesn't do anything to morale bonuses nor does it even render them immune to mind-affecting effects. It just grants a bonus. This was a change when the game transitioned from 3.5 to Pathfinder. In addition, divination effects against them do not work, not divination effects originating from the creature under mind blank. You have been running mind blank wrong, yo.
Most 'buffs' only last 15-30 minutes at this level of play ... and a CR 18 against APL 16'ish can easily have a disjunction scroll tucked into a pocket for stripping down ALL of their buffs. Just ignore the part about whacking their permanent magic items and get the fight going.
Again, another spell that changed. Disjunction only turns off magic items temporarily unless they roll a natural 1 on the save, so do keep that in mind. Still devastating though, but remember the 40 foot radius and that the spell is close range. You could hit yourself with the spell if the players can close the gap. Moreso, Aroden's Spellbane keyed to Mage's Disjunction means this doesn't work at all, and a wizard can just as easily have a scroll of that on hand as the monster could have a scroll of disjunction.
apl for a 6 person party is 1.5 times that of a 4 person party so a apl for a level 10 4 person party would be 15 for a 6 person party
This may be your experience, but here's the relevant quote from the CRB. Page 397, 2nd column, Chapter 12: Gamemastering, Designing Encounters:
When designing a combat encounter, you first decide what level of challenge you want your PCs to face, then follow the steps outlined below.
Step 1—Determine APL: Determine the average level of your player characters—this is their Average Party Level (APL for short). You should round this value to the nearest whole number (this is one of the few exceptions to the round down rule). Note that these encounter creation guidelines assume a group of four or five PCs. If your group contains six or more players, add one to their average level. If your group contains three or fewer players, subtract one from their average level. For example, if your group consists of six players, two of which are 4th level and four of which are 5th level, their APL is 6th (28 total levels, divided by six players, rounding up, and adding one to the final result).
lots of good stuff
Glad to see that both spells have been changed since the last time I looked at them closely. It's been a few years real time since my group has seen play at that level with those spells in use. Whew!
When mind blank blocked all mind-affecting effects from working on the target, it shut down morale bonuses. Wasn't clear on divinations by the user. VERY glad to see that errata.
disjunction only trashing permanent items on a nat-1 is a major improvement!
Amusingly, most of these changes I recall being suggested or making a while back and something very similar to both we did use the last time around. Neat-o!
apl for a 6 person party is 1.5 times that of a 4 person party so a apl for a level 10 4 person party would be 15 for a 6 person party
Uh, no. An APL + 4 encounter for 6 10th-level characters would be 6 10th-level characters, or CR 15. Not CL 21, which would be an encounter of 6 16th-level characters.
Throw in some minions that last for 1-3 rounds. Make use of Aid another to increase to-hit-chances of BBEG.
Add a construct or other things that are immune to critical hits.
Use combat maneuvers. Trip him, grapple him, drag him around.
Use spells to give him conditions like staggered.
apl for a 6 person party is 1.5 times that of a 4 person party
According to the design of the CR system, increasing CR or PC level by 2 approximately doubles someone's overall power. So a party of eight level 10 PCs would be roughly equivalent to a party of four level 12 PCs. Six level 10 PCs is roughly equivalent in power to four level 11 PCs. So for a party of six level 10's you'd probably want encounters in the CR11 to CR14 range.
Actual party power will vary widely based on synergy, teamwork and optimization.
Also, 15th level PCs can pretty much steamroller anything given preparation and buffing time -- the CR system is only ever a rough approximation. Character design, tactics, and thinking ahead are all liable to create substantial modifiers.
Much better to boost the CR by having multiple opponents, instead of upping the CR of single monsters -- something at CR+5 or 6 may not have AC or hitpoints to matter, but may have some sort of special attack the PCs are totally unprepared to deal with. A single "boss" either insta-gibs one or more PCs, or else succumbs very quickly to high-powered high-intensity attacks from multiple opponents. Spread out the PCs' firepower and give the enemy more actions by providing multiple foes.
Also, try to have lots of encounters before the PCs can rest. If they are running low on spells, one-shot (or few-shot) abilities, and other such stuff, encounters later in the day will be less easy for them to steamroll.
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Also, 15th level PCs can pretty much steamroller anything given preparation and buffing time -- the CR system is only ever a rough approximation. Character design, tactics, and thinking ahead are all liable to create substantial modifiers.
Much better to boost the CR by having multiple opponents, instead of upping the CR of single monsters -- something at CR+5 or 6 may not have AC or hitpoints to matter, but may have some sort of special attack the PCs are totally unprepared to deal with. A single "boss" either insta-gibs one or more PCs, or else succumbs very quickly to high-powered high-intensity attacks from multiple opponents. Spread out the PCs' firepower and give the enemy more actions by providing multiple foes.
Also, try to have lots of encounters before the PCs can rest. If they are running low on spells, one-shot (or few-shot) abilities, and other such stuff, encounters later in the day will be less easy for them to steamroll.
that resting bit can come in handy. if you think about it, resting should be really, really, really hard in high level dungeons (low level ones too!).
and there are TONS of things you can throw at parties to throw them off. go at their weak points. ambush them. target the casters, or split them apart so they can't take advantage of their buffs or coordinate their attacks.
haunts, anti-magic zones, enemies attacking from inaccessible places, spells... heck, just making the monsters fight smarter and with some tactics will do wonders. don't let the pcs go from room to room fighting individuals one at a time. have all those guys show up when the sound of battle happens, and coordinate their defense against the hobo murderers that showed up in their house.
What Flamephoenix said. GMs at this level have lots of tools in their toolbox.
So do players, but everything they use to counter the GM toolbox instead of taking out enemies delays their victory, depletes their resources, and rewards them for clear thinking.
Keep in mind that at 15th level, death is a minor speedbump (breath of life, various means of raising the dead, etc., and heal can wipe out lots of status effects and 150 points of damage all at once; so can limited wish.) Enemies can teleport, stalk the PCs from the ethereal plane, do whole bundles of other stuff. Cooperating enemies can make the PCs' lives difficult (e.g., a dragon with four kobold sorcerors, a kobold bard, and a kobold rider with Mounted Combat on his back...)
I am currently planning a homebrew campaign for a group of about 6.
This is only my 2nd or 3rd campaign and first ever homebrew so I'm looking for any advice I can get
First off, are your players actually more experienced (have been in more than 3 campaigns) or are they just looking up stuff online?
I ask because, as an experienced GM, I've run for both veteran players, total noobs, and also "on paper" experts. The "on paper" expert is the one who looks up stuff on optimization boards but has very little actual table experience. And yes, an "on paper" expert's build looks very good at level 15, but they're usually god-awful before that (because they build for level 15, not for level 1).
For veteran players, I consider APL encounters "easy", APL +1 and APL +2 encounters "normal", APL +3 "challenging", APL +4 "mid-boss", APL +5 "boss", and APL +6 or higher "epic". And that's for a 3-person party of players.
Meanwhile, for new players (or "on paper" experts) I have had out-of-the-box unaltered Pathfinder Adventure Paths absolutely WRECK them. I nearly TPKed a party three times in a single session with the first three encounter.
Player experience means a lot. It's the difference between APL +0 being deadly or a cake walk.
