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New to Summoner class


Rules Questions


Well, this is my first post EVER.

I usually lurk and read things on here, and do research to gain better insight on the various classes and whatnot of Pathfinder. Which brings me to my question:

I am building a good-aligned Summoner, and would like to design the Eidolon to be, in function and form, similar to either a lillend or a marilith. I was rather successful making an evil version based on a scorpionfolk-like fiend.

My stumbling block is in the limitation on natural attacks and the base forms giving an attack form. are we able to alter the evolutions from the base forms so as to get rid of those unwanted attack forms (like serpentine base form's bite)?


Welcome to the fray! Are we talking about the "original" Summoner or the "unchained" version?


VRMH wrote:
Welcome to the fray! Are we talking about the "original" Summoner or the "unchained" version?

Original, not quite ready to "re-learn the system" with Unchained yet.


Traysheia wrote:
are we able to alter the evolutions from the base forms so as to get rid of those unwanted attack forms (like serpentine base form's bite)?

Only by selecting an evolution that explicitly allows that. Only hooves, pincers, and slam do so, and those only only work for claws, i.e. only for avian, biped, and tauric base forms. You're stuck with the others, and they also count towards your maximum natural attack limit.


Yeah, typically a marilith style eidolon build will focus on manufactured weapon attacks by adding a heap of Limbs evolutions and going for the Multiweapon Fighting feat. Then they usually go kukri proficiency for crit-fishing.

Essentially that means you're getting one main hand attack and as many off-hand attacks as you have additional limbs. You're not limited by the eidolon's natural attack maximum in this scenario. Quadruped is best in this scenario since it's a higher Dex base than humanoid and has a better movement speed than serpentine. Of course it's up to you what you pick.

So yeah, at 5th level your eidolon could have a full attack sequence including 8 kukris and a secondary bite attack, assuming you're spending your evolutions on nothing but limbs, picking up the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat for kukris at 1st level and the Multiweapon Fighting feat at 3rd level.


Derklord wrote:
Traysheia wrote:
are we able to alter the evolutions from the base forms so as to get rid of those unwanted attack forms (like serpentine base form's bite)?
Only by selecting an evolution that explicitly allows that. Only hooves, pincers, and slam do so, and those only only work for claws, i.e. only for avian, biped, and tauric base forms. You're stuck with the others, and they also count towards your maximum natural attack limit.

Thanks, Derklord. You answered my first question exactly as I needed it answered.

JDLPF wrote:

Yeah, typically a marilith style eidolon build will focus on manufactured weapon attacks by adding a heap of Limbs evolutions and going for the Multiweapon Fighting feat. Then they usually go kukri proficiency for crit-fishing.

Essentially that means you're getting one main hand attack and as many off-hand attacks as you have additional limbs. You're not limited by the eidolon's natural attack maximum in this scenario. Quadruped is best in this scenario since it's a higher Dex base than humanoid and has a better movement speed than serpentine. Of course it's up to you what you pick.

So yeah, at 5th level your eidolon could have a full attack sequence including 8 kukris and a secondary bite attack, assuming you're spending your evolutions on nothing but limbs, picking up the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat for kukris at 1st level and the Multiweapon Fighting feat at 3rd level.

Thanks for the suggestion! Was thinking along that line if I went with a marilith model. And if I am not mistaken, the serpentine base form has better Dex than quadruped. And the extra limbs would not cost THAT much, overall.


There's pros and cons to quadruped vs. serpentine. Unless you also spring for the Weapon Finesse feat, quadruped gets +1 to their attack rolls over serpentine, as well as +1 damage on each hit. They also have better movement speed, and can add 2 claw attacks to one of their base legs evolutions for just 1 evolution point, beating out tail slap.

It also allows you to maximize investments into natural weapons as well as manufactured weapons when making a full attack by exclusively focusing on claws. Simply pick Improved Damage evolution for claws and consider the Improved Natural Attack feat for claws as well. That will shift your 1d6 claw damage up to 2d6.

If you go this route, at 9th level when you get Multiattack for free, your evolutions would look something like Limbs (arms) x6, claws x2, and improved damage (claws), assuming you went Half-Elf and put your FCB into 1/4 evolution pool points per level. Your eidolon feats would be Martial Weapon Proficiency (kukri), Multiweapon Fighting and Improved Damage (claws), plus your choice of an additional feat.

Your attack sequence for a full attack would look something like melee kukri +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11 (1d6+4/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2) and melee claws +9/+9/+9/+9 (2d6+2) and bite +9 (1d6+2). This also doesn't include goodies such as your Summoner casting Enlarge Person onto your unholy marilith wood-chipper.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Traysheia wrote:
VRMH wrote:
Welcome to the fray! Are we talking about the "original" Summoner or the "unchained" version?
Original, not quite ready to "re-learn the system" with Unchained yet.

Getting rid of unwanted attack types is actually easier with the unchained summoner. For example, I think the Azata subtype of the Unchained eidolon does get rid of that unwanted bite attack and gain the 4-point version of Weapon Training. However, the Demon subtype keeps the bite.


One thing to note when making a manufactured weapon eidolon is to take weapon proficiency as a feat, not as an evolution. It's severely overpriced as an evolution (unless you want proficiency with multiple different kinds of weapons, but most of the time you'll just be using the one), and by taking a feat you can even use exotic weapons. Having the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat on your character is also helpful to ensure access to a large number of magical weapons of the specific variety your eidolon uses.


Usually I'd not recommend magical weapons for a marilith style build, however. Even with crafting, making 8 versions of a +1 weapon for 8,000 gp is going to consume a huge chunk of your WBL for just an extra +1 damage over masterwork. You'd get more mileage out of a belt of giant strength +2 and save yourself a feat and 4,000 gp. And trying to pay for 8 versions of +2 or higher is just ridiculous.


JDLPF wrote:
There's pros and cons to quadruped vs. serpentine.

It completely boils down to flavor vs. mechanics - you can't beat Pounce for a multiattack character. If you want an eidolon without legs, you need serpentine or aquatic base form, but quadruped is where the damage at.

JDLPF wrote:
It also allows you to maximize investments into natural weapons as well as manufactured weapons when making a full attack by exclusively focusing on claws. Simply pick Improved Damage evolution for claws and consider the Improved Natural Attack feat for claws as well. That will shift your 1d6 claw damage up to 2d6.

Improved Natural Attack and the Improved Damage evolution don't stack.

Since it starts at 1d4, Improved Damage is a pretty crappy evolution unless the eidolon is huge (13th level or 9th level and under the effects of Enlarge Person), and even then it's far from overwhelming.

JDLPF wrote:
Even with crafting, making 8 versions of a +1 weapon for 8,000 gp is going to consume a huge chunk of your WBL for just an extra +1 damage over masterwork. (...) And trying to pay for 8 versions of +2 or higher is just ridiculous.

At that point, Weapon Focus (Kukri) and Ascetic Style (to apply an Amulet of Mighty Fists to all wielded Kukris) would probably be better.

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