paizo.com Recent Posts in Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?paizo.com Recent Posts in Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?2017-06-19T11:48:55Z2017-06-19T11:48:55ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Leingodhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#402018-03-14T19:37:58Z2018-03-14T19:37:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Set wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Stereofm wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Civilizing humanoids.</p>
<p>That would make for a great Asmodean villain story </blockquote><p>Indeed. Orcs and goblins and gnolls might be a hard row to hoe, but hobgoblins and bugbears and possibly ogres would probably work well under Asmodean doctrine, with appropriate roles and motivations tailored to their own cultures (let the ogres think that they are feared and valued, while the bugbears actually •are•, etc.).
<p>It would be intriguing to see something done with the blank slate that is lizardfolk. Ignored and neglected, they could be seen as ripe for an evil church / nation to cultivate and promise all sorts of 'come with us if you want to live' stuff (and then ruthlessly exploit and use as disposable arrow fodder and literally cold-blooded unblinking inhuman enforcers to terrorize their own human population). It wouldn't even have to be Asmodeans, which, in Cheliax, at least, are racist as heck. The church of Razmir could use some inhuman 'muscle,' and lives in a more lizardfolk-compatible marshy part of the world.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>Some Asmodean societies might be able to pull that off, but others (like Cheliax) seem like they'd just go the road of trying to enslave most of them.
<p>I think Asmodean societies in general would have the problem of becoming wrapped up in ideas of their own superiority, because that's the go-to explanation for any society that builds itself on slavery: we're the slavemasters instead of the slaves because we're inherently the best.</p>Set wrote:Stereofm wrote:Civilizing humanoids.
That would make for a great Asmodean villain story
Indeed. Orcs and goblins and gnolls might be a hard row to hoe, but hobgoblins and bugbears and possibly ogres would probably work well under Asmodean doctrine, with appropriate roles and motivations tailored to their own cultures (let the ogres think that they are feared and valued, while the bugbears actually *are*, etc.). It would be intriguing to see something done with the blank slate that...Leingod2018-03-14T19:37:58ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Sethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#392018-03-04T02:41:53Z2018-03-04T02:41:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Stereofm wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Civilizing humanoids.</p>
<p>That would make for a great Asmodean villain story </blockquote><p>Indeed. Orcs and goblins and gnolls might be a hard row to hoe, but hobgoblins and bugbears and possibly ogres would probably work well under Asmodean doctrine, with appropriate roles and motivations tailored to their own cultures (let the ogres think that they are feared and valued, while the bugbears actually •are•, etc.).
<p>It would be intriguing to see something done with the blank slate that is lizardfolk. Ignored and neglected, they could be seen as ripe for an evil church / nation to cultivate and promise all sorts of 'come with us if you want to live' stuff (and then ruthlessly exploit and use as disposable arrow fodder and literally cold-blooded unblinking inhuman enforcers to terrorize their own human population). It wouldn't even have to be Asmodeans, which, in Cheliax, at least, are racist as heck. The church of Razmir could use some inhuman 'muscle,' and lives in a more lizardfolk-compatible marshy part of the world.</p>Stereofm wrote:Civilizing humanoids.
That would make for a great Asmodean villain story
Indeed. Orcs and goblins and gnolls might be a hard row to hoe, but hobgoblins and bugbears and possibly ogres would probably work well under Asmodean doctrine, with appropriate roles and motivations tailored to their own cultures (let the ogres think that they are feared and valued, while the bugbears actually *are*, etc.). It would be intriguing to see something done with the blank slate that is...Set2018-03-04T02:41:53ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?john mclaughlin 11https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#382018-03-03T22:22:37Z2018-03-03T22:22:37Z<p>there is a pathfinder comic that cover this in part</p>there is a pathfinder comic that cover this in partjohn mclaughlin 112018-03-03T22:22:37ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Stereofm (alias of Francois MICHEL)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#372018-03-03T19:44:41Z2018-03-03T19:44:41Z<p>Civilizing humanoids.</p>
<p>That would make for a great Asmodean villain story</p>Civilizing humanoids.
That would make for a great Asmodean villain storyStereofm (alias of Francois MICHEL)2018-03-03T19:44:41ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Leingodhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#362018-03-03T02:37:01Z2018-03-03T02:37:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Drakli wrote:</div><blockquote> As I recall, Kaer Maga, so called the "City of Strangers," is open to all races or species willing to behave themselves and engage in trade. I don't have the campaign book in front of me, but I think I remember goblins acting as sort of gangs of perpetual street urchins. </blockquote><p>Not to mention the famous Troll Augurs, who work as the city's premier fortune tellers/information network for hire.Drakli wrote:As I recall, Kaer Maga, so called the "City of Strangers," is open to all races or species willing to behave themselves and engage in trade. I don't have the campaign book in front of me, but I think I remember goblins acting as sort of gangs of perpetual street urchins.
Not to mention the famous Troll Augurs, who work as the city's premier fortune tellers/information network for hire.Leingod2018-03-03T02:37:01ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Draklihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#352018-03-02T18:05:34Z2018-03-02T18:05:34Z<p>As I recall, Kaer Maga, so called the "City of Strangers," is open to all races or species willing to behave themselves and engage in trade. I don't have the campaign book in front of me, but I think I remember goblins acting as sort of gangs of perpetual street urchins.</p>As I recall, Kaer Maga, so called the "City of Strangers," is open to all races or species willing to behave themselves and engage in trade. I don't have the campaign book in front of me, but I think I remember goblins acting as sort of gangs of perpetual street urchins.Drakli2018-03-02T18:05:34ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Mark Moreland (Director of Brand Strategy)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#342018-02-27T05:18:41Z2018-02-27T05:18:41Z<p>You are looking for the <a href="https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cantorian_Supremacy" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Cantorian Supremacy</a>.</p>You are looking for the Cantorian Supremacy.Mark Moreland (Director of Brand Strategy)2018-02-27T05:18:41ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?pad300https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#332018-02-25T19:09:56Z2018-02-25T19:09:56Z<p>I don't call it official, but I can recall at least 1 in-game attempt at making Hobgoblin Jannisaries (loyal slave-soldiers)...</p>I don't call it official, but I can recall at least 1 in-game attempt at making Hobgoblin Jannisaries (loyal slave-soldiers)...pad3002018-02-25T19:09:56ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?YlothofMerabhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#322018-02-28T18:19:47Z2018-02-25T03:40:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Coidzor wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If so, what sources discuss this?</p>
<p>If not, is there a reason why this has never occurred to anyone?</p>
<p>Aside from people wanting to kill them on sight, the difficulties of deprogramming goblins of their barbaric and insane culture or raising them by hand depending upon their age, and the logistical difficulties of their metabolisms, what barriers would there be in terms of their nature rather than their categorically evil nurture?</p>
<p>What about the larger variants of goblinoid? </blockquote><p>In our Rise of the Runelords game, we befriended the local goblin tribe and taught them to make magically infused cheeses for us. We call them the Curdherders and we love them. Apart from trying to milk every creature they see they're rather well behaved.Coidzor wrote:If so, what sources discuss this?
If not, is there a reason why this has never occurred to anyone?
Aside from people wanting to kill them on sight, the difficulties of deprogramming goblins of their barbaric and insane culture or raising them by hand depending upon their age, and the logistical difficulties of their metabolisms, what barriers would there be in terms of their nature rather than their categorically evil nurture?
What about the larger variants of goblinoid?
In...YlothofMerab2018-02-25T03:40:19ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Arcaianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#312017-07-17T17:01:19Z2017-07-17T17:01:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ataraxias wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Davia D wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><p>If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
</p>
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. </p>
<p>I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein, to kill and eat people as they please. </p>
<p>Civilizing goblins, even by raising babies from scratch (with all the horrific implications that being a good thing has), is pretty GM dependent. How much that's goblin nature and how it's purely cultural is loosely defined at best. Possibly even contradictory. </blockquote><p>Civilized doesn't mean 'nice'. Civilized means lived in an organized city-based society.
<p>Rome was civilized, and it was out conquering people left and right.</p>
<p>Sparta was completely horrible, keeping most of the population in slavery where it was not only free to kill them but something done as a right of passage, but it was civilized. </p>
<p>Irrisen's civilized, but the trolls really aren't a big factor in that, the Witches rule and keep the trolls in line. Some of the monsters who live there are more properly civilized, others just are given a spot.</p>
<p>Belkzen is semi-civilized. There is some cities and such, but most of the country is semi-nomatic tribes that sometimes take over a city. Give it time and I expect it'd become more-so with a more stable system. </blockquote><p>Adding to this from Irrisen - Land of Eternal Winter book:
</p>
The fey of the Feyfrost region are known child thieves and have a whole market island that deals in this trade. Baroness Pavlina is considered a black sheep and "exiled" to the peasant town of Badelund because she actually worries about the well being of servants and slaves. She has to personally pay for mercenaries to try to track down stolen... </blockquote><p>As far as I'm aware, Feyfrost was literally given to the evil Fey who helped Baba Yaga, so it's not overly surprising that it's not human-centric. That may not be true for the rest of Irrisen :)Ataraxias wrote:Davia D wrote: thejeff wrote:If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not...Arcaian2017-07-17T17:01:19ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Kajehasehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#302017-07-17T21:03:07Z2017-06-27T11:03:41Z<p>Friendlier meaning they only hit them as much as needed to subdue them before enslaving them?</p>Friendlier meaning they only hit them as much as needed to subdue them before enslaving them?Kajehase2017-06-27T11:03:41ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Sir RicHunt Attenwampi (alias of Ambrosia Slaad)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#292017-06-27T14:55:23Z2017-06-27T10:49:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Leingod wrote:</div><blockquote> I see no one's even going to make the attempt to advocate for the poor, misunderstood bugbears. Just shameful. </blockquote><p>Fun fact: Zirnakaynin's Mall of Cocyrdavarin is so big, it has two Build-a-Bugbearâ„¢ Workshops. <span class=tiny>(The one in the southeast corner on level 3, right next to the Fleshcrafters, is friendlier to surface folk.)</span>Leingod wrote:I see no one's even going to make the attempt to advocate for the poor, misunderstood bugbears. Just shameful.
Fun fact: Zirnakaynin's Mall of Cocyrdavarin is so big, it has two Build-a-Bugbearâ„¢ Workshops. (The one in the southeast corner on level 3, right next to the Fleshcrafters, is friendlier to surface folk.)Sir RicHunt Attenwampi (alias of Ambrosia Slaad)2017-06-27T10:49:18ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Leingodhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#282017-06-27T06:09:04Z2017-06-27T06:09:04Z<p>I see no one's even going to make the attempt to advocate for the poor, misunderstood bugbears. Just shameful.</p>I see no one's even going to make the attempt to advocate for the poor, misunderstood bugbears. Just shameful.Leingod2017-06-27T06:09:04ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Wilkins, Goblin Scholar (alias of Cole Deschain)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#272018-02-27T06:45:48Z2017-06-24T09:13:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zhangar wrote:</div><blockquote>Civilizing goblins - probably perfectly doable if you're willing to take a bunch of babies and start from scratch.</blockquote><p>•Patronizing sniff•
<p>A typically ignorant dismissal of our many, many contributions to the civilized world. Our poetry and music alone put us at the forefront of civilization!</p>Zhangar wrote:Civilizing goblins - probably perfectly doable if you're willing to take a bunch of babies and start from scratch.
*Patronizing sniff* A typically ignorant dismissal of our many, many contributions to the civilized world. Our poetry and music alone put us at the forefront of civilization!Wilkins, Goblin Scholar (alias of Cole Deschain)2017-06-24T09:13:00ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?CorvusMaskhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#262017-06-24T07:19:49Z2017-06-24T07:19:49Z<p>I meant that by Irriseni law, a troll killing human isn't murder because "that's just the troll's nature" so its basically humans fault for being in the way of hungry/angry troll :P</p>I meant that by Irriseni law, a troll killing human isn't murder because "that's just the troll's nature" so its basically humans fault for being in the way of hungry/angry troll :PCorvusMask2017-06-24T07:19:49ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?GeraintElberionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#252017-06-23T20:47:55Z2017-06-23T20:47:55Z<p>The Kingdom of Zog, led by Barghests.</p>The Kingdom of Zog, led by Barghests.GeraintElberion2017-06-23T20:47:55ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Ataraxiashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#242017-06-23T20:18:18Z2017-06-23T20:18:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Davia D wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><p>If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
</p>
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. </p>
<p>I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein, to kill and eat people as they please. </p>
<p>Civilizing goblins, even by raising babies from scratch (with all the horrific implications that being a good thing has), is pretty GM dependent. How much that's goblin nature and how it's purely cultural is loosely defined at best. Possibly even contradictory. </blockquote><p>Civilized doesn't mean 'nice'. Civilized means lived in an organized city-based society.
<p>Rome was civilized, and it was out conquering people left and right.</p>
<p>Sparta was completely horrible, keeping most of the population in slavery where it was not only free to kill them but something done as a right of passage, but it was civilized. </p>
<p>Irrisen's civilized, but the trolls really aren't a big factor in that, the Witches rule and keep the trolls in line. Some of the monsters who live there are more properly civilized, others just are given a spot.</p>
<p>Belkzen is semi-civilized. There is some cities and such, but most of the country is semi-nomatic tribes that sometimes take over a city. Give it time and I expect it'd become more-so with a more stable system. </blockquote><p>Adding to this from Irrisen - Land of Eternal Winter book:
</p>
The fey of the Feyfrost region are known child thieves and have a whole market island that deals in this trade. Baroness Pavlina is considered a black sheep and "exiled" to the peasant town of Badelund because she actually worries about the well being of servants and slaves. She has to personally pay for mercenaries to try to track down stolen children, as opposed to ordering soldiers to do it.</p>
<p>Sections like that heavily imply that the races involved with Baba Yaga's conquering armies are given a lot of leeway unless they upset a major Jadwiga.</p>Davia D wrote:thejeff wrote:If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind...Ataraxias2017-06-23T20:18:18ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Davia Dhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#232018-03-03T19:43:50Z2017-06-22T00:41:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote><p>If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
</p>
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. </p>
<p>I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein, to kill and eat people as they please. </p>
<p>Civilizing goblins, even by raising babies from scratch (with all the horrific implications that being a good thing has), is pretty GM dependent. How much that's goblin nature and how it's purely cultural is loosely defined at best. Possibly even contradictory. </blockquote><p>Civilized doesn't mean 'nice'. Civilized means lived in an organized city-based society.
<p>Rome was civilized, and it was out conquering people left and right.</p>
<p>Sparta was completely horrible, keeping most of the population in slavery where it was not only free to kill them but something done as a right of passage, but it was civilized. </p>
<p>Irrisen's civilized, but the trolls really aren't a big factor in that, the Witches rule and keep the trolls in line. Some of the monsters who live there are more properly civilized, others just are given a spot.</p>
<p>Belkzen is semi-civilized. There is some cities and such, but most of the country is semi-nomatic tribes that sometimes take over a city. Give it time and I expect it'd become more-so with a more stable system.</p>thejeff wrote:If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein,...Davia D2017-06-22T00:41:12ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Zhangarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#222017-06-21T17:05:30Z2017-06-21T17:05:30Z<p>Yeah, a lot of monsters in Irrisen serve the Jadwiga. And Irrisen has ongoing conflicts with monsters that refuse to bow down to <i>anyone</i> (and so they have patrols of human soldiers led by trolls or winter wolves that have to hunt renegade evil fey and whatnot).</p>
<p>The Ulfen peasants are a disposable resource, but they can't just be killed without getting permission first. After all, those serfs are still someone's property.</p>Yeah, a lot of monsters in Irrisen serve the Jadwiga. And Irrisen has ongoing conflicts with monsters that refuse to bow down to anyone (and so they have patrols of human soldiers led by trolls or winter wolves that have to hunt renegade evil fey and whatnot).
The Ulfen peasants are a disposable resource, but they can't just be killed without getting permission first. After all, those serfs are still someone's property.Zhangar2017-06-21T17:05:30ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#212017-06-21T16:07:16Z2017-06-21T16:07:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zhangar wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">CorvusMask wrote:</div><blockquote> In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault. </blockquote>That's not exactly "civilized". </blockquote><p>I'd expect the troll to be charged with unauthorized destruction of property, if anything.
<p>Most humans in Irrisen are chattel, with the notable exception of the Jadwiga ruling caste.</p>
<p>Irrisen is definitely civilization, just a casually horrifying one. Forx example, burying dead serfs is prohibited - rather, their corpses are supposed to be collected and sent to Whitethrone for processing into meat, fat, bone meal, etc. The eternal winter means everything keeps!</p>
<p>Civilizing goblins - probably perfectly doable if you're willing to take a bunch of babies and start from scratch. Reforming actual goblin society means you're running smack dab into the influence of Lamashtu and the Goblin Hero Gods, and that is one hell of a push back. </blockquote><p>If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
</p>
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe. </p>
<p>I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein, to kill and eat people as they please. </p>
<p>Civilizing goblins, even by raising babies from scratch (with all the horrific implications that being a good thing has), is pretty GM dependent. How much that's goblin nature and how it's purely cultural is loosely defined at best. Possibly even contradictory.</p>Zhangar wrote:thejeff wrote: CorvusMask wrote: In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault.
That's not exactly "civilized". I'd expect the troll to be charged with unauthorized destruction of property, if anything. Most humans in Irrisen are chattel, with the notable exception of the Jadwiga ruling caste.
Irrisen is definitely civilization, just a casually horrifying one....thejeff2017-06-21T16:07:16ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Zhangarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#202017-06-21T15:50:46Z2017-06-21T15:50:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">CorvusMask wrote:</div><blockquote> In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault. </blockquote>That's not exactly "civilized". </blockquote><p>I'd expect the troll to be charged with unauthorized destruction of property, if anything.
<p>Most humans in Irrisen are chattel, with the notable exception of the Jadwiga ruling caste.</p>
<p>Irrisen is definitely civilization, just a casually horrifying one. Forx example, burying dead serfs is prohibited - rather, their corpses are supposed to be collected and sent to Whitethrone for processing into meat, fat, bone meal, etc. The eternal winter means everything keeps!</p>
<p>Civilizing goblins - probably perfectly doable if you're willing to take a bunch of babies and start from scratch. Reforming actual goblin society means you're running smack dab into the influence of Lamashtu and the Goblin Hero Gods, and that is one hell of a push back.</p>thejeff wrote:CorvusMask wrote: In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault.
That's not exactly "civilized". I'd expect the troll to be charged with unauthorized destruction of property, if anything. Most humans in Irrisen are chattel, with the notable exception of the Jadwiga ruling caste.
Irrisen is definitely civilization, just a casually horrifying one. Forx example,...Zhangar2017-06-21T15:50:46ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Cpt_kirstovhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#192017-06-21T14:15:13Z2017-06-21T14:15:13Z<p>It was attempted in Korvosa (see Pathfinder Goblins #1 the second story)</p>It was attempted in Korvosa (see Pathfinder Goblins #1 the second story)Cpt_kirstov2017-06-21T14:15:13ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#182017-06-21T14:04:49Z2017-06-21T14:04:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">CorvusMask wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Coidzor wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thistledown wrote:</div><blockquote> I know they are counted as citizens in Irrisen, so there might be some more civilized goblins up there just through acceptance. </blockquote><p>Oh? What's the source on that? Is there any level of detail given?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Davia D wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Yea, it's like, they aren't dumb, they can join many cultures.
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How well the culture accepts them is probably a large factor. </blockquote>They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to have to disagree with you about them being pretty dumb. </blockquote>In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault. </blockquote><p>That's not exactly "civilized".CorvusMask wrote:Coidzor wrote: thistledown wrote: I know they are counted as citizens in Irrisen, so there might be some more civilized goblins up there just through acceptance.
Oh? What's the source on that? Is there any level of detail given? Davia D wrote:Yea, it's like, they aren't dumb, they can join many cultures.
How well the culture accepts them is probably a large factor.
They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to...thejeff2017-06-21T14:04:49ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?thejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#172018-02-27T06:44:40Z2017-06-21T14:02:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Coidzor wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Davia D wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Yea, it's like, they aren't dumb, they can join many cultures.
</p>
How well the culture accepts them is probably a large factor. </blockquote>They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to have to disagree with you about them being pretty dumb. </blockquote><p>I'd probably actually give goblins a Wisdom penalty. Clever, but not prone to thinking things through.Coidzor wrote:Davia D wrote:Yea, it's like, they aren't dumb, they can join many cultures.
How well the culture accepts them is probably a large factor.
They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to have to disagree with you about them being pretty dumb. I'd probably actually give goblins a Wisdom penalty. Clever, but not prone to thinking things through.thejeff2017-06-21T14:02:40ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Have there been any historical attempts at civilizing goblinoids on any scale in Golarion?Davia Dhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ueso?Have-there-been-any-historical-attempts-at#162017-06-21T13:46:25Z2017-06-21T13:46:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Coidzor wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to have to disagree with you about them being pretty dumb. </blockquote><p>Smart enough to make a city. Just not naturally inclined to it.Coidzor wrote:They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to have to disagree with you about them being pretty dumb.
Smart enough to make a city. Just not naturally inclined to it.Davia D2017-06-21T13:46:25Z