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My player wants to play a Paladin! What do I do?


Advice

51 to 83 of 83 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

literally just play it as a 5e paladin throw away the LG garbage and make them take an oath give them 5-20 to choose from if they break their oath they fall if not all the power to them weather they be LG or CE its much more clear cut, it wont be stepping on any of the other players toes as much and it will be much easier on both you and the paladin player


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And what if they want to play the «LG garbage»? I like the part of playing a paladin code.


I have no idea what a 5e Paladin is. I am not going to buy the 5e books. I am unlikely to ever read the 5e books so this is weird advice. It's not like 5e is the first d20 game to allow non-LG Paladins, 13A has a "Way of Evil Bastards" talent for players who want their Paladins to be grubbier and less noble, as well as the "Path of Universal Righteous Endeavor" for players who want their Paladins extra squeaky clean (and there are no alignment mechanics in that game whatsoever.)

I'm pretty sure people are already aware that you can reskin or rework classes to fit the needs of the game if that's what everybody wants. We don't need to call out specific games to do this. I mean, Pathfinder Unchained (they start on page 100) already has rules for "playing Pathfinder without alignment" that provide specific guidance on how to run Paladins.


Note that Hellknights can be lawful good as well. In fact, some of the built npc examples are paladin 5 hellknight 2! The reasoning is that the official stance on the devils is that the initiation is to prove they are superior to the devils by killing one. As long as you believe strongly in Law, the HK have a place for you. Just like the druid Hellknight Signifer wearing dragonhide fullplate armour...


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I feel like the difference between a CG adventurer and a LG adventurer when dealing with an evil, but lawful, authority is that the LG has to worry about what comes after.

The CG is willing to Robinhood his way through and kill 100 guards (because they are working for evil).

The LG, particularly a paladin, has to worry about what happens when there are 100 less guards to defend the people from bandits.

That is the difference- Lawful tends to want to build up systems to manage things, while chaotic is more laissez faire and individualistic. The CG would only be concerned with removing a bad authority, while the LG would be concerned about putting in a good authority.

NG would do whatever works at the time. If there is a good option (such as the good brother of the evil king that had been driven out in the power struggle), then fine. But it will not put in an authority when it seems like it would lead to additional trouble (example- setting up a council that represents each region of the kingdom to discuss their interests; depending on the political climate, this could lead to civil war as factions form).

As a GM, you can prevent this kind of alignment problem by providing the players with nice solutions lined up (ie- the lawful player doesn't have to worry, since a friendly faction is already lined up to transition into power).


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In my Rise of the Runelords campaign about ten years ago, a paladin of Iomedae joined a party of Desna worshippers during Fortress of the Stone Giants. Not all the party was chaotic good; for example, the Thassalonian-scholar wizard was technically lawful neutral, but he worshipped Desna, too. Furthermore, my wife's character was a lyrakien bard whose day job was emissary of Desna. Officially, she was helping this tagtag group of heroes while on vacation; unofficially, Desna had asked her to lend a hand.

Throwing the paladin in didn't cause any problems.

The backstory of the paladin evolved from his early interactions with the party. Sir James was not fully a party member, though they gave him a share of the treasure out of fairness. Instead, he was also lending a hand. The paladins of Iomedae had formed a paramilitary organization in Varisia to fight evil, and clearly the evil goddess Lamashtu had targetted the town of Sandpoint. Nevertheless, Desna was known for her opposition to Lamashtu. Sir James led his own organization (the character took Leadership later) but followed the lead of the Desna party that had proven itself in uncovering evil conspiracies.

The tiny lyrakien bard took to riding around on Sir James' helmet, playing with its plume. Their philosophical differences were for playful arguments, because they were united in the battle against evil.

The players can work things out if they don't act like jerks.

The paladin's player was also surprised that I as the GM did not try to make the paladin fall but let him play Sir James as he wanted. I didn't see the point of such shennanigans against a well-played character. It would not have made the game more fun.

Silver Crusade

Snakers wrote:
Note that Hellknights can be lawful good as well. In fact, some of the built npc examples are paladin 5 hellknight 2! The reasoning is that the official stance on the devils is that the initiation is to prove they are superior to the devils by killing one. As long as you believe strongly in Law, the HK have a place for you. Just like the druid Hellknight Signifer wearing dragonhide fullplate armour...

I think the Order of the Torrent tends towards LG (and supposedly has never had an evil member).


Oathbound Paladin can basically get a new Code of Conduct depending on which oath you choose. You can also be a Gray Paladin, which can be LN or NG instead of LG.


Unless you plan to force the PCs to do stuff that would make a paladin fall, I wouldn't worry about it. LG is not a terrible alignment or something that auto-destroys parties. If anything it really comes down to the player of a paladin -- sure, someone who goes "I must wake up the sleeping orcs to challenge them to honorable combat" will be a problem, but that's a player issue, not a paladin issue. Same kind of person could cause problems with any other alignment. "Yes, I burned down the orphanage after I paid to have it built -- I'm True Neutral, man."


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Oathbound Paladin can basically get a new Code of Conduct depending on which oath you choose. You can also be a Gray Paladin, which can be LN or NG instead of LG.

I somehow get the sense my player won't like Gray, but I can show it to him. As for Oathbound...

I got the idea from reading it that the Oath's code of conduct is in addition to all others, not in place of the standard code.

~~~
And I'm reading everything. Thank you, one and all!


Mephron wrote:
bitter lily wrote:

I just talked to him and got more background.

He wants essentially to play Albert from The Count of Monte Cristo, after the events of the novel end. Only assuming that he landed in a temple of Sarenrae afterwards, instead of heading off to war.

At the end of the book, Albert finds out his father is a mostly professional betrayer - at least three betrayals for profit (after selling the titular character to the law for a crime he didn't commit so he could have a woman for himself), leading to the death of others, the fall of a kingdom, and the implication that he's got a lot of very shady friends. Albert and his mother give up their money and opulent lifestyle in shame. (Fernand Mondego kills himself rather than lose everything.)

His mother joins a convent, and Albert joins the military, taking his mother's maiden name to replace his father's, so he can regain his own honor.

(Such a good book. Dumas is a great writer, even when it becomes obvious he was being paid by the word.)

Just reading the wiki on the novel told me that he pubbed it the way Dickens pubbed his books -- in magazines, paid by the word. :) Dumas probably could have cut out half of the deceptions & reversals, and still had a great story.

I'm posing my question about where this PC could be from on the Pathfinder Campaign Setting/General board.


Kileanna wrote:
And what if they want to play the «LG garbage»? I like the part of playing a paladin code.

i was talking about the fact they are forced into LG if they actually want to play LG all the power to them i just find that LG is far to restrictive to play and also has a tendency to ruin other players fun just as much as a player playing chaotic evil


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Lady-J wrote:
i just find that LG is far to restrictive to play and also has a tendency to ruin other players fun just as much as a player playing chaotic evil

Let's hear some actual examples, because that hasn't been my experience.

I played a LG Fighter in my first campaign ever. Played a LG cleric in my second campaign.

In a campaign I'm running on Monday night, I had a paladin in the group. Then there was a TPK. After reconvening the party, there are now TWO paladins in the group. In the second campaign I'm running on Wednesday night, there's also a paladin.

I just don't get this "LG is ruining our games!" What kind of games are you playing? I mean, sure, if you're playing "ARRR we're evil pirates plundering and murdering everything" then LG ain't going to work too well, but that's true for any good alignment.


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There are no problematic alignments, there are problematic players. There are also concepts that, despite being well developed, dont mix well together. I've had a lot of LG characters in the games I have GMed and I never had a single problem with them.

I had trouble with a lot of different alignments, but always played by the same problematic players who, by the way, refuse religiously to play legal or good characters because they feel they are "stupid" and "whiney".


Lady-J wrote:
Kileanna wrote:
And what if they want to play the «LG garbage»? I like the part of playing a paladin code.
i was talking about the fact they are forced into LG if they actually want to play LG all the power to them i just find that LG is far to restrictive to play and also has a tendency to ruin other players fun just as much as a player playing chaotic evil

Strange. I find playing a LG Paladin a liberating past-time. The clarity of morals and purpose, the simplicity of not having to justify your actions. It´s simple and freeing.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

One of my player's in RotRL played a Paladin of Seranrae from level 1 through 16 and we didn't have any issues. We had a mixed alignment party (no Evil).

-Skeld


I generally find that people who find LG restrictive and/or use it as a way to stomp on other people's fun probably aren't thinking the right way about alignment.

I mean, there's no "judgmental" axis on the alignment spectrum, you can be a deeply moral person who believes that one's moral code is aspirational, that each individual will from time to time veer from the path of righteousness, and because this is a consequence of mortal frailty everybody deserves forgiveness for their transgression, up to being granted absolution if they sincerely seek it.

It's the difference between "that person committed a crime, I must smite them" and "that person committed a crime, I forgive them but I want to help them become a better person and to come to be a better place, while also making sure the injured party is taken care of."

I mean, one of the reasons the Paladin is super tanky out of the box is that you can talk to people up until they attack you; it will be fine. Seriously, a (middling) high INT Paladin who thinks a lot about moral philosophy is a really fun character to play.


Some roles to consider when playing a paladin (from Bodhi's Guide to the Optimal Paladin/Antipaladin):

There are a number of different ways of playing the paladin apart from the traditional “I uphold the law and fight for good, and if you don’t, I’m going to come into conflict with you, and I’m looking at you, Rogue!” attitude. We’ll look into just a few that might help shine some light on alternatives to the standard paladin-at-the-table annoyance that seems to be the popular concept.

The Eternal Optimist: A more benevolent paladin type, you could quite possibly be the most naive person in the party. You’re always cheerful and look on the bright side of everything, and this can either be very soothing to other members of the party, or it can annoy them to no end. You have a tendency to take what people say at face value, at least until they prove you wrong. This character concept goes along quite well with the idea that Wisdom is a dump-stat for paladins, combined with their high Charisma. You’re quite likable to others most of the time, and people generally find you pleasant to be around, not a burden like some of the other paladin-personalities.

Useful Skills: Diplomacy; you have a tendency to try to convince others to play nice and fair just like you do.

The Harmoniser: This type of paladin does not wish to impose their view of the world upon others, but rather, through examples of good living and strength of faith rather than brutally imposing their view of the world upon others. They encourage rather than force, and attempt to gently chide those who may stray from the path of goodness and law. They do not tolerate genuine evil, but they prefer to remediate rather than punish whenever possible; to reform instead of destroy. If the redemption of the paladin’s foes is not possible, they will do what is necessary without hesitation, but with remorse for those who cannot be saved. This type of paladin is best suited to getting the group to gradually change their ways into those that are more lawful and goodly in nature. It can be difficult to justify a plan of gradual change with paladins who have low Wisdom scores, but this is a role that most players will be able to get along with.

Useful Skills: Diplomacy, for obvious reasons, and a splash of Knowledge (Religion) probably couldn’t hurt if you’re attempting to convert others to your faith.

The Holy Pain (i.e. Lawful Stupid): Unfortunately, most players seem to think that this is the way a paladin must be played. This is only one option that is available to players, and while it’s a popular option, it causes a lot of conflict with other members of your group. You essentially see every non-good, non-lawful act that your companions commit as a violation of your ethics and you attempt to force your way of acting and thinking upon them, often to disastrous results. At their worst, the Holy Pain will issue inconvenient challenges that may spoil the element of surprise, insist upon imprisoning foes who will ultimately break free from simple jails manned by careless non-player characters, or you’ll argue with your companions over minor actions all the time, particularly those of rogues or barbarians. If you really want to play this character concept, there’s nothing that stops you, but just be warned... This is going to make your paladin quite unpopular with the other characters and create disharmony in achieving your goals.

Useful Skills: Diplomacy, ‘cause you’re going to need it a lot to get yourself out of trouble, and Sense Motive, because you’re going to be judging everyone all the time.

The Vindicator: There is a purpose in all that you do, and you will pursue your goals with intensity that can frighten others, but that’s okay... If they can’t or won’t help you, they can get out of your way. You won’t purposefully put others into harm’s way, and you’ll allow other members of the party to do what they feel is best, so long as your own goals are achieved. You’re not Mr. Personality, and you don’t care about playing nice, particularly with your enemies. You ask for no quarter, and you give none. You are judge, jury and executioner when it comes to dealing with the forces of evil. Your hard tack with your enemies can sometimes make others fearful of crossing you, worrying that you may turn your harsh judgments upon them (think Judge Dredd). You’ll take the law quite literally, but if you genuinely believe someone to be innocent, then they have nothing to fear from you. Your party members will accept you, but they’ll probably believe that you lack compassion.

Useful Skills: Intimidate will probably be your principal skill.

-----

If you're having problems with paladins in your group, you're quite likely encountering The Holy Pain or The Vindicator at your table. I would urge you to guide your paladin players toward either The Eternal Optimist or especially The Harmoniser.

Best wishes!


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
bitter lily wrote:


That doesn't help me.

LG -- No stealing, no matter what.
CG -- It's got to be in a good cause.
NG -- ??

LG -- No killing anyone with civil rights, no matter what. (Meaning monsters are okay, or citizens WITH a "license to kill" or in self-defense.)
CG -- It's got to be in a good cause.
NG -- ??

LG -- No ignoring the defenseless, unless the law is against them.
CG -- It's got to be in a good cause. (Normally, protecting the defenseless is a good cause...)
NG -- ??

I think what will help is to not think of LG as being so rigid and contemplate a little more of the philosophy that could apply for each group.

Lawful isn't about things like "No... no matter what". It's about aspiring to uphold important moral and social standards of behavior that everyone can share and prosper through doing so. Deviating from those standards risks disruption for everyone but LG types don't have to adhere to them "no matter what" - they just try to minimize disruption when they can. The alignment isn't a straight-jacket.

Chaotic Good also isn't just about doing something because it's a good cause - it's because I think it's a good idea regardless of social or moral standards and from an individual's viewpoint. At the more extremes, from a very idiosyncratic viewpoint, bristling at authority, even helpful and legitimate ones.

Neutral Good is a pragmatic course between the two extremes. Moral and social standards are considered in balance with idiosyncratic, personal judgment. If you think of both Law and Chaos as philosophical directions with their own true believer adherents, Neutral is the pragmatist's choice.

Silver Crusade

Bodhizen wrote:
The Harmoniser:The Harmoniser: This type of paladin does not wish to impose their view of the world upon others, but rather, through examples of good living and strength of faith rather than brutally imposing their view of the world upon others. They encourage rather than force, and attempt to gently chide those who may stray from the path of goodness and law. They do not tolerate genuine evil, but they prefer to remediate rather than punish whenever possible; to reform instead of destroy. If the redemption of the paladin’s foes is not possible, they will do what is necessary without hesitation, but with remorse for those who cannot be saved. This type of paladin is best suited to getting the group to gradually change their ways into those that are more lawful and goodly in nature. It can be difficult to justify a plan of gradual change with paladins who have low Wisdom scores, but this is a role that most players will be able to get along with.

IMHO This aligns most closely with the nature of Sarenrae.


Let him. Give him a free slotless Phylactery of Faithfulness. Then sit down with him and explain your world view on the paladin oath.

When he is about to do something that may lead to falling the Phylactery (you) will warn him.


DrDeth wrote:

Let him. Give him a free slotless Phylactery of Faithfulness. Then sit down with him and explain your world view on the paladin oath.

When he is about to do something that may lead to falling the Phylactery (you) will warn him.

I think this is a case where the gm should actually learn to paladin ....


Purple Overkill wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Let him. Give him a free slotless Phylactery of Faithfulness. Then sit down with him and explain your world view on the paladin oath.

When he is about to do something that may lead to falling the Phylactery (you) will warn him.

I think this is a case where the gm should actually learn to paladin ....

I'm sorry, but I can't translate this...

PCScipio wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
The Harmoniser:The Harmoniser: This type of paladin does not wish to impose their view of the world upon others, but rather, through examples of good living and strength of faith rather than brutally imposing their view of the world upon others. They encourage rather than force, and attempt to gently chide those who may stray from the path of goodness and law. They do not tolerate genuine evil, but they prefer to remediate rather than punish whenever possible; to reform instead of destroy. If the redemption of the paladin’s foes is not possible, they will do what is necessary without hesitation, but with remorse for those who cannot be saved. This type of paladin is best suited to getting the group to gradually change their ways into those that are more lawful and goodly in nature. It can be difficult to justify a plan of gradual change with paladins who have low Wisdom scores, but this is a role that most players will be able to get along with.
IMHO This aligns most closely with the nature of Sarenrae.

I totally agree!


bitter lily wrote:
PCScipio wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
The Harmoniser:The Harmoniser: This type of paladin does not wish to impose their view of the world upon others, but rather, through examples of good living and strength of faith rather than brutally imposing their view of the world upon others. They encourage rather than force, and attempt to gently chide those who may stray from the path of goodness and law. They do not tolerate genuine evil, but they prefer to remediate rather than punish whenever possible; to reform instead of destroy. If the redemption of the paladin’s foes is not possible, they will do what is necessary without hesitation, but with remorse for those who cannot be saved. This type of paladin is best suited to getting the group to gradually change their ways into those that are more lawful and goodly in nature. It can be difficult to justify a plan of gradual change with paladins who have low Wisdom scores, but this is a role that most players will be able to get along with.
IMHO This aligns most closely with the nature of Sarenrae.
I totally agree!

It's why I highly recommend it. :)


Enlightened Paladin

Does not have paladin code
Instead seeks self perfection
Still has to be lawful good

Gives alot more flexibility. Plus has some cool features (like Cha to AC when in light armor)


Grumbaki wrote:

Enlightened Paladin

Does not have paladin code
Instead seeks self perfection
Still has to be lawful good

Gives alot more flexibility. Plus has some cool features (like Cha to AC when in light armor)

On Archives of Nethys, it's called the Iroran Paladin and is restricted to followers of Irori, which is why it has that monk-ish feel to it.


Ventnor wrote:
Grumbaki wrote:

Enlightened Paladin

Does not have paladin code
Instead seeks self perfection
Still has to be lawful good

Gives alot more flexibility. Plus has some cool features (like Cha to AC when in light armor)

On Archives of Nethys, it's called the Iroran Paladin and is restricted to followers of Irori, which is why it has that monk-ish feel to it.

And I've already brought both of those up in a prior post, discussing the mechanical advantages of the archetype. (note- Iroran is the actual material printed by Paizo, "Enlightened Paladin" is d20pfsrd's attempt not to run afoul of copyright law with Golarion gods).

And I will reiterate- they do in fact have a paladin code... it is just that the fluff implies that you write it yourself. That is admittedly still a very low bar you can set for yourself. You pretty much just have to codify your table's murder hobo ways into a set of rules ("hunt down everyone thief taht manages to steal one of your items to the ends of the earth and out planes")

Shadow Lodge

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are already aware that you can reskin or rework classes to fit the needs of the game if that's what everybody wants. We don't need to call out specific games to do this. I mean, Pathfinder Unchained (they start on page 100) already has rules for "playing Pathfinder without alignment" that provide specific guidance on how to run Paladins.

I wouldn't assume that. As a lawful-leaning person it took me years of playing to to get to the point where I could follow "the rules say this" with "but in these circumstances it would be better to do something else." I've definitely seen discussions where people have been skeptical of the idea that a barbarian "rage" doesn't have to involve frothing anger, or that you can remove the asian flavour from the ninja and samurai classes. And in the case of paladins there's a misconception floating around that the flavour restrictions that go along with the class are actually a mechanical balancing factor, and that if paladins were for example allowed to use poison then they would be overpowered.

So, to the OP: It sounds like you're already playing a heroic game in which the players approach grey areas thoughtfully. A paladin, particularly if they follow Sarenrae, should have no problem in such a game, even if you apply the code strictly as-written. Paladins don't fall as easily as you might think. They're not responsible for their companions actions aside from not permitting clearly evil acts (anyone in your group like harming innocents? No?). Paladins can even commit minor unlawful acts without falling, aside from the things specifically called out by the code (eg not lying). And if you do accidentally run into a paladin trap, there's always Atonement.

If you want to interpret the code more loosely, great. As you've seen a lot of people do just fine with "as long as the player can provide a reasonable moral interpretation for their character's actions, it's good." It's also perfectly acceptable to customize the code, especially for a paladin of a NG deity since such a patron will be less concerned with perfect standardization of their paladins. This site has some interesting stuff in it.

Just talk with the player about how you both think this character should act, check that the rest of your group is OK with it, and have fun!

bitter lily wrote:
Feh. I claimed I was playing a NG, and got shouted at that the PC was CG, because she was willing to change her mind a lot. Or yes, break promises, if there seemed to be good reason. But not for the joy of doing so!!!!

Chaotic types do tend to be mercurial, but saying that a character has to be Chaotic because they change their mind too often is like saying they have to be Lawful because they're stubborn. Reading too much into one trait, IMO.

Scarab Sages

A lot of people misunderstand paladins. It stems from their code and their strict lawful good alignment. But here's the thing:

Lawful good JUST means you are a generally orderly person and are good. The Paladin code is a bit more restrictive, but not too much. Don't kill surrendering opponents, don't lie, cheat and steal.

So, your a CG character decides to kill an opponent who surrendered? Role-play it. Tell him that in your opinion it was wrong to do that. Maybe as flavor make a Diplomacy check against him (no mechanical effect, true, but it it makes an impassioned arguement). It doesn't have to end in party or player strife. Paladins are responsable for THEIR characters, not anyone else's.

As long as your Paladin is chill, and your players don't deliberately troll him, it need not cause problems.


VampByDay wrote:
Don't kill surrendering opponents

Depends on the paladin. Torag paladins are explicitly told to not allow surrender of certain enemies. For Paladins of Iomedae: "When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives." Emphasis on "When in doubt." Also "I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest." If it's an unworthy enemy where there is no doubt to their evil? You don't have to accept surrenders.

How about Sarenrae?

* I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
* I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.

If you have an evil creature who is not going to be redeemed...you can and should simply kill them.

Paladins are a lot more militant and a lot less "nice" than people seem to imagine -- they're given Smite Evil for a reason. They CAN be nice, but they do not have to be. They're given their powers to protect the innocent and destroy evil.


Balkoth wrote:
Paladins are a lot more militant and a lot less "nice" than people seem to imagine -- they're given Smite Evil for a reason. They CAN be nice, but they do not have to be. They're given their powers to protect the innocent and destroy evil.

I feel like your deity (or whoever is endowing you) is giving you Smite Evil for those times when you run into undead monstrosities, demons, and similar inveterate evil (and as an encouragement to seek out suck) not so that you can really whomp on whatever pickpockets or blasphemers you run into, though.

You're given limited access to smiting in part so that you save it for something that really deserves it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
not so that you can really whomp on whatever pickpockets or blasphemers you run into, though.

I didn't mention whomping pickpockets or blasphemers, now did I? :P

PossibleCabbage wrote:
You're given limited access to smiting in part so that you save it for something that really deserves it.

Absolutely. And in many cases the stuff that really deserves it doesn't deserve a chance to surrender.

Shadow Lodge

Balkoth, you are correct but keep in mind that there is a difference between refusing to accept surrender and killing an opponent after accepting surrender. It's relatively common for paladin problems to come up when the party allows surrender (often for interrogation purposes) and then can't figure out what to do with the prisoners. Of course in a heroic group this can be a sticky situation even without paladins. If OP's group has dealt with the "goblin babies" dilemma then they should be able to deal with prisoners even with a paladin in the group.

Note some groups allow a paladin to execute a surrendered opponent in punishment for particular crimes, but other groups prefer paladins to deliver criminals to an appropriate authority for official sentencing - it's one of those things you need to sort out with your table.

VampByDay wrote:
As long as your Paladin is chill, and your players don't deliberately troll him, it need not cause problems.

It's even OK for other characters to troll the paladin as long as the players are on board and keep it within agreed limits.

One of my favourite game anecdotes involves a party sorcerer intentionally provoking my LG Inquisitor (originally written as a paladin but I wanted skill points) by insulting the Noble Lady who my knight had sworn loyalty to. I told him to stop, he didn't, I smacked him with the flat of my sword, he lit both of us on fire, I healed us up and he never insulted the Lady again. You see, the sorc had seen my knight as weak because he never reacted to the sorc insulting him...

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