I… kinda love FR?


5th Edition (And Beyond)

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Scarab Sages

Sissyl wrote:

Thing is, if I were in charge of FR publishing and wanted to really try to burn it to the ground, I would do this:

Nuke the setting from orbit. Based on a plotline that people spent three mega adventure books to prevent, just to show that I don't care about continuity. Make it a post-apocalyptic wasteland complete with mutants. Then, to eradicate every NPC around, make a 100 year time jump so they are dead. Restore it to pseudoomedieval fantasy. Redraw the map, wait, scratch that, keep the map EXACTLY the same, because nothing of significance happened in the last 100 years. Add in an extra continent with... stuff... that was very dragon themed but had no connection. Then publish a player's guide, a DM guide and an adventure that again had nothing to do with established facts of the setting. Followed by... nothing for years.

i.e. precisely what WotC did in 4th edition Realms.

Apparently they got over themselves at some point, because they restarted it with some stuff toward the end of 4th. This was decent, apparently, but I haven't read it.

5th edition did all they could to apologize about all this, without actually saying it. Everything is now back to where it was, mostly. Dates are kept extremely vague. It all screams "you can use this and ignore 4th", which is good.

So they all but literally said "forget 4E ever happened, WE'RE SOOORRY!!!"?

First of all, that's hilarious.

Second of all, I'm quite glad to hear it; it means the various epic heroics of my Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Neverwinter Nights characters won't all have been for nothing! :D


There was simply no way that WotC would publish anything that split their fan base after they took over TSR's books. The start of 3rd came with a number of policies that had already changed the situation:

No splitting the fanbase.
No adventures, we publish the rules and others write adventures for us.
Far better production values, no more simple black and white.

Whether these are true or not, and that truly is debatable, those were the reasons.

It also behooves us to remember that there is also another side to it. After ceasing publication of the other settings, WotC did not pursue the scorched earth method of fan relations by suing everyone who put out something D&D related. It used to be joked that TSR stood for They Sue Regularly. Instead, the various sites dedicated to the different settings have been generally allowed to keep on.


Storyteller Shadow wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:

My issue with FR is that it seems overrun with NPCs with improbably high levels (like 30th) and insanely powerful templates, so that the PCs can really never have any importance in the setting. A four-person party of even 20th level PCs saying "I want to change the world!" doesn't work when there are 1,000 level 30 NPCs protecting the status quo.

In that regard, the setting seems specifically intended to force players to accept DM overlordship and massive amounts of railroading, because they can never be of any real importance. Even at the pinnacle of their power (20th level), they're still hapless peons compared to just about everyone else. (For comparison, the 3.5 version of Elminster, at 35th level plus a +5 CR template = CR 40, is literally over a thousand times more powerful than any 20th level PC, according to the CR system of that edition). (In 1st edition, he was "merely" 26th level, but was effectively omnipotent due to the DM fiat baked into that rule set.)

If you removed ALL of the named NPCs, and divided the listed level of everyone else by 10 (e.g., 10th level mook guards become 1st), FR would be a lot more to my liking.

I think that problem disappears when a DM who is not concerned with these matters is managing the Realms. The same could certainly be said of the Dragonlance setting as it so tied to the stories of the novels. Ravenloft has nigh unbeatable Lords. Dark Sun nigh unbeatable Dragon Kings. Greyhawk had the Mord and the Circle of 8. Etc. etc.

It's more about the DM than the setting IMHO. And this is coming from a DM who has DM'ed extensively in the setting for the last 15 years.

A FR fanboy DM one may have a problem with I suppose.

Those settings actually pointed out on several occasions that these characters COULD be killed, with a step by step process for both the Ravenloft lords and the dark sun Dragon kings. The circle of 8 had its own problems with a traitor in it, but that's more storyline based.

Forgotten Realms literally has every major bad guy and good guy still alive over at least 3.x incarnations of the game with NOTHING changing. You want to kill them? You're going to have to eclipse their power and whittle down their hp like anything else. And good luck finding a DM who will allow that to happen.


Set wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
but even I have to admit that first frcs book was amazing. We were ready to see other campaign settings get that treatment.

Oh, a Greyhawk hardcover that had the same level of sheer flavor *and* mechanics as the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting would have set my world on fire.

it's all I asked for. Literally the only thing I wanted.

I had to go third party to get that for Ravenloft and it never materialized for dragonlance in any meaningful way(although I have yet to buy the last bestiary, which was supposedly amazing).

Never happened for dark sun. That alone fills me with rage.


Sissyl wrote:

There was simply no way that WotC would publish anything that split their fan base after they took over TSR's books. The start of 3rd came with a number of policies that had already changed the situation:

No splitting the fanbase.
No adventures, we publish the rules and others write adventures for us.
Far better production values, no more simple black and white.

Whether these are true or not, and that truly is debatable, those were the reasons.

It also behooves us to remember that there is also another side to it. After ceasing publication of the other settings, WotC did not pursue the scorched earth method of fan relations by suing everyone who put out something D&D related. It used to be joked that TSR stood for They Sue Regularly. Instead, the various sites dedicated to the different settings have been generally allowed to keep on.

and thank God for that.

Athas.org remains amazing.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Forgotten Realms literally has every major bad guy and good guy still alive over at least 3.x incarnations of the game with NOTHING changing. You want to kill them? You're going to have to eclipse their power and whittle down their hp like anything else. And good luck finding a DM who will allow that to happen.

I let it happen. A lot. My players weren't restricted based on canon of books or anything of that nature. Sure, I was willing to incorporate FR novel events and the like that were written . . . unless my players did something that changed the course of events. NPCs were never gods--well, even if they were, the players actions could destroy them if it became possible for them to do so.

It just seems to me that you're rage against the machine here is based on a lot of bad faith or bad DMs (and what Sissyl pointed out). I don't know if it's as necessary for you to hate the setting so very much. It might just have behooved you to find a different group back then. You know, maybe find a DM willing to let your story be yours, and your characters impact the world . . . like good DMs are supposed to do.

I get that bad experiences cause harsh feelings. Once had a character in a Marvel game waaaaaaay back when that couldn't do anything he was built to do because Tony Stark did it all that much better. Left a sour taste in my mouth for Iron Man. Couldn't stand him. Still not a fan of the character, but I did find myself enjoying his films in the MCU. Some things just aren't worth the loathing, man. ;)


The major problem with Dark Sun is that it was very much a one story setting. This is the story detailed in the Prism Pentad series of novels. Eventually, they ran into the wall of No more stuff to say. Now, you certainly don't HAVE to play that story, but the setting materials have little other option for the successful group. The cutthroat politics of the setting mean that once someone gets powerful, they must either deal with the dragon kings etc, or be destroyed by them. Even the material dealing with the mind lords etc are expressions of the same story. It is the primary problem with the non-kitchen-sink setting. That said, there was material beyond it, such as the Dragon's Crown adventure.

Note also that it is a setting with a very high number of superstar characters, like Rikus, Neeva, and above the others Sadira. The setting books even specifically bring up that the PCs should not be able to destroy the BBEG, that task being reserved for the novel characters.


Sissyl wrote:

The major problem with Dark Sun is that it was very much a one story setting. This is the story detailed in the Prism Pentad series of novels. Eventually, they ran into the wall of No more stuff to say. Now, you certainly don't HAVE to play that story, but the setting materials have little other option for the successful group. The cutthroat politics of the setting mean that once someone gets powerful, they must either deal with the dragon kings etc, or be destroyed by them. Even the material dealing with the mind lords etc are expressions of the same story. It is the primary problem with the non-kitchen-sink setting. That said, there was material beyond it, such as the Dragon's Crown adventure.

Note also that it is a setting with a very high number of superstar characters, like Rikus, Neeva, and above the others Sadira. The setting books even specifically bring up that the PCs should not be able to destroy the BBEG, that task being reserved for the novel characters.

I would argue that caveat only appeared in one adventure, and that they were not supposed to kill the character that those characters killed specifically OR the Dragon of athas itself.

And very high number of superstar characters? More like 4. Nothing on forgotten realms 12+ nigh unkillable-lest-the-world-explode npcs.


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I loved FR in 3/3.5. The Campaign Setting hardcover is one of my favorite books.


I am running an evil FR campaign here on the boards, feel free to lurk Freehold perhaps it will change your view on FR :-)

The Exchange

in the end, it's just a matter of if and how you want to use a setting. I know people that started out with the Grey Box and from there went their very own way by totally ignoring every tome of additional knowledge written for it. That's something you can basically do with every setting book as well. If you want to, but my point is, that this makes a lot of the problems the Realms are said to have immediately go away.

But you can also include basically everything ever written into your version of the Realms and still having no problems.

Not everyone has to like the Realms, though. I'm pretty much a setting and adventure omnivore, so I simply can't get enough of them but I can certainly understand if other people have a bit more refined taste.

But yeah, without Ed Greenwood, I'd probably never had started playing D&D and there's no one in this whole business I have more respect for. AND I'm an unapologetic Salvatore fan as well.

Never ever tried to play Elminster or Drizz't though.


Salvatore's great side characters get lost in Drizz't's snowflake.

Bruenor Battlehammer, Cattie-Brie, Regis, Artemis Entreri, etc are all super cool.

Even though Artemis had to ride Jarlaxle's coattails (who is also super cool) to get his own book series.

Dark Archive

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captain yesterday wrote:
Salvatore's great side characters get lost in Drizz't's snowflake.

[tangent] He's local-ish to me. I met him once at a comic shop, and he showed me a bit of a manuscript (for Homeland, I think, as the scene I read reminds me of one I later I read there). I had no idea that he was a published author, with the Icewind Dale books out already. My advice was that he was using too much stuff owned by TSR, and that he's spelled Lolth wrong. I cringe at the memory... [/tangent]

I haven't actually read the Icewind Dale books, so I didn't get to see the other characters as much. I kind of wish he had a wizard or cleric in his original party, although that's not a dig on him in particular, it just bugs me how many AD&D/PF fantasy parties don't include a healer or even a spellcaster. I've read dozens and dozens of novels set in the Realms or Golarion, and very rarely read about a fantasy party that could actually function in a standard adventure, since so many of them are utterly dependent on the writer-as-GM to keep them alive.

It's weird that so many settings have really iconic setting-defining wizards or whatever (a trend that started before Elminster and the Chosen, with Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight), and we've got friggin' Goldmoon as our 'iconic' fantasy-setting Cleric.

Although Salvatore himself attempted to break that out with a whole series of five books about a cleric. I, uh, haven't read them. So I'm apparently part of the problem. :)


Set wrote:
Although Salvatore himself attempted to break that out with a whole series of five books about a cleric. I, uh, haven't read them. So I'm apparently part of the problem. :)

Canticle, decent series.


I would say that most of Drizzts books (not including 4e era) are good. However, there are some that are really bad. of the hunter blade trilogy are quite annoying. Being the 3E era, one have to wonder how lady alustriel, a CR 28 spellcaster, can have problem destroying an army of low level Orcs.


Sissyl wrote:

The major problem with Dark Sun is that it was very much a one story setting. This is the story detailed in the Prism Pentad series of novels. Eventually, they ran into the wall of No more stuff to say. Now, you certainly don't HAVE to play that story, but the setting materials have little other option for the successful group. The cutthroat politics of the setting mean that once someone gets powerful, they must either deal with the dragon kings etc, or be destroyed by them. Even the material dealing with the mind lords etc are expressions of the same story. It is the primary problem with the non-kitchen-sink setting. That said, there was material beyond it, such as the Dragon's Crown adventure.

Note also that it is a setting with a very high number of superstar characters, like Rikus, Neeva, and above the others Sadira. The setting books even specifically bring up that the PCs should not be able to destroy the BBEG, that task being reserved for the novel characters.

This is how I felt about Dragonlance. I tried really hard to take that setting and do something awesome with it... but just couldn't. Everything was so tied up with the War of the Lance and the setting changing novels that I kept running into roadblocks and it died pretty fast...

I also felt that way about the Wheel of Time RPG. The whole game felt like we were standing in the shadow feeding on the scraps tossed us by the REAL heroes of the setting...

Dark Archive

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phantom1592 wrote:
This is how I felt about Dragonlance. I tried really hard to take that setting and do something awesome with it... but just couldn't.

Yeah, there are definitely settings that are great for *a* story, and then settings that are good for *lots* of stories. Golarion, thankfully, is the latter sort of setting. Krynn particularly felt a little too much like the former. There was a great story going on, and if you weren't the heroes of that story, it felt a little sparse. (Not that you can't fill in the blank places and have some amazing stories in the gaps, as movies like Rogue One have shown, but it didn't feel like there was much development in that direction, during the time that setting was hot.)

Star Wars kind of started out a setting that grew up around a single story, but has grown into something that can support all sorts of stories, that don't necessarily have anything to do with Luke, Leia, Han, etc. Star Trek went the other direction, and started out as a setting in which there were supposed to be different stories every week, and in which completely different characters, ships, races, planets, stations, cultures, etc. could eventually become the focus of all new series.

It's probably a sign of how setting design has changed that Golarion doesn't have a Mordenkainen or Elminster, or, if it does, they are dead-and-gone figures like Old Mage Jatembe or Nex, not active in the setting. There's never going to be a question of why Nex (or the need for a book like Elminster in Hell, to explicitly write a character off-stage so that something can happen) hasn't dealt with the rise of a Runelord. Nor is there a need for that squiffy old 'Mordenkainen is true neutral, so he won't stop the rise of Kyuss, because he's all about the balance, and he helped good last week' nonsense. :)

The Realms, like Golarion, can come across as a thematic mish-mash, at times (here's the country just like Egypt, right next to a country that's nothing like anything that's ever existed in the real world! Here they have guns! Here they have dinosaurs!) but they were designed (or accreted more organically around Ed Greenwood's heartlands) to tell more than a single story, and fit more than a single theme or tone, and that's a strength that, hopefully, leads to both lasting the test of time. Long after anybody has lost interest in telling (or reading) stories about Elaith Craulnobur or the various wayward members of the Jeggare or Vancaskerkin families, there will still be tales to be told in these settings.


phantom1592 wrote:

This is how I felt about Dragonlance. I tried really hard to take that setting and do something awesome with it... but just couldn't. Everything was so tied up with the War of the Lance and the setting changing novels that I kept running into roadblocks and it died pretty fast...

I also felt that way about the Wheel of Time RPG. The whole game felt like we were standing in the shadow feeding on the scraps tossed us by the REAL heroes of the setting...

This is part of the reason that I set my Dragonlance Game in the era of the Second Dragon War. Yeah Huma is supposed to beat Galen Dracos but maybe he won't! Even if he does, that story took place around Solamnia, I have the rest of the Continent and six other Dark Gods to play with ;-)

I play in a WoT game here on the boards, the DM sent us into mirror worlds I think for the exact reason you cite here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Storyteller Shadow wrote:
This is part of the reason that I set my Dragonlance Game in the era of the Second Dragon War.

I do my rare forays into Krynn in the reign of Istar- no dragons, no dragonlances, pre-Cataclysm map...


I just set my Dragonlance games after... mmmh... Takhisis last... gambit... and all the published material. Raistlin, Huma and the like are just legends who died some time ago.

We used... mmmh... Takhisis last plot... to remove almost all of that high-level casters. Some of them may still be around, but they have to develop their powers again. Just like the PCs.

The high-level NPC of our setting are usually former PCs. Of course, bad things can still happen to them: they have not plot armor. And I kinda like George R.R. Martin...


I will admit I'm kind of disappointed with one of the reasons for retconning 4E Fr. It was done to please Greenwood and Salvatore so that they keep writing the same characters. Don't get me wrong I enjoy their books for heavens sake try writing with new characters. From the looks of it it seems to be more lip service on the part of Wotc to both writers. As it seems they are stopping to publish new FR novels.

The only other issue and possible mistake that was made was releasing sourcebooks that detailed the stats for the high level npcs. When one knows the power and level of a npc it makes one wonder "why is high level npc having trouble with the opposition" when according to their published stats. They not only should be defeating the opposition the npcs should be doing it in their sleep.


I love Farideh and Havi♥

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