paizo.com Recent Posts in Agile Tongue and Flurry of Blowspaizo.com Recent Posts in Agile Tongue and Flurry of Blows2017-07-05T09:06:05Z2017-07-05T09:06:05ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of Blowstoastedamphibianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#742017-07-02T08:50:53Z2017-07-02T08:50:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lady-J wrote:</div><blockquote> feral combat training is only needed to get the damage for the nartual attack, if you have claws you could still use the claws in a flurry of blows they would just do unarmed strike damage instead </blockquote><p>And do bludgeoning damage. And not count as claws in any way.
<p>Zarius, did you bother to read the link provided? The one you quoted? If your at all interested in learning the rules, I highly recommend it. I will even type it out again for you.</p>
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
<br />
Feral Combat Training FAQ</a></p>
<p>If your just looking to throw tantrums though, don't let me stop you.</p>Lady-J wrote:feral combat training is only needed to get the damage for the nartual attack, if you have claws you could still use the claws in a flurry of blows they would just do unarmed strike damage instead
And do bludgeoning damage. And not count as claws in any way. Zarius, did you bother to read the link provided? The one you quoted? If your at all interested in learning the rules, I highly recommend it. I will even type it out again for you.
Feral Combat Training FAQ
If your just...toastedamphibian2017-07-02T08:50:53ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsLady-Jhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#732017-07-01T04:12:44Z2017-07-01T04:12:44Z<p>feral combat training is only needed to get the damage for the nartual attack, if you have claws you could still use the claws in a flurry of blows they would just do unarmed strike damage instead</p>feral combat training is only needed to get the damage for the nartual attack, if you have claws you could still use the claws in a flurry of blows they would just do unarmed strike damage insteadLady-J2017-07-01T04:12:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#722017-07-01T03:33:49Z2017-07-01T03:33:49Z<p>Only it doesn't do lethal or non lethal damage. Or provoke attacks of oppirtunity. Or have a -4 to attack. Or is innate. Or says natural weapon. Or is primary or secondary. </p>
<p>It's not a natural weapon or unarmed strike. It's neither, Zarius</p>Only it doesn't do lethal or non lethal damage. Or provoke attacks of oppirtunity. Or have a -4 to attack. Or is innate. Or says natural weapon. Or is primary or secondary.
It's not a natural weapon or unarmed strike. It's neither, ZariusCavall2017-07-01T03:33:49ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsWildstaghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#712017-07-01T03:13:46Z2017-07-01T03:13:46Z<p>Except, since you need to take a feat just to use this part of the body, it clearly does, in fact, take special training to use, or else it would be a default racial ability. </p>
<p>Also, chill dude, no need to get so heated over a discussion.</p>
<p>And your final sentence is unnecessary. The "with" you're using means the exact same thing as "in place of" in this case. You can use a natural weapon instead of an unarmed strike while using your flurry of blows class feature.</p>
<p>No need to get all bent out of shape over a difference in syntax this small.</p>Except, since you need to take a feat just to use this part of the body, it clearly does, in fact, take special training to use, or else it would be a default racial ability.
Also, chill dude, no need to get so heated over a discussion.
And your final sentence is unnecessary. The "with" you're using means the exact same thing as "in place of" in this case. You can use a natural weapon instead of an unarmed strike while using your flurry of blows class feature.
No need to get all bent out...Wildstag2017-07-01T03:13:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsZariushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#702017-07-01T01:19:29Z2017-07-01T01:19:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">toastedamphibian wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Zarius wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
That said, the tongue is still a Grippli's natural weapon.</blockquote><p>Citation Needed.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote> No, you can't use it to perform a combat maneuver during flurry of blows unless you take the feat to use it, in which case it's a •free• one at Melee-5, as if it were a secondary natural attack. -7 if you function under the TWF rules that Flurry allows. </blockquote><p>Incorrect. Feral combat training allows you to attack with a natural weapon as part of your Flurry, in place of unarmed strikes. It does not allow you to make secondary natural attacks in addition to your flurry.
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">FAQ </a> </blockquote><p>Citation? It's a f-ing tongue. Tongue, claw, tails, bite, they're an innate part of the body that doesn't doesn't take special training to use. Literally, that's a natural weapon. Unarmed strikes (punching, headbutts, whatever have you), provokes an attack of opportunity AND either takes a -4 penalty do your attack as lethal or as non-lethal, UNLESS you've taken a special feat, even if it's as a class feature. There's your citation.
<p>As to Feral Combat Training:
<br />
"Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."</p>
<p>With. WITH. Not IN PLACE OF attacks. WITH. This is a rules thread, that means rules as WRITTEN, not as you think they're intended.</p>toastedamphibian wrote:Zarius wrote:
That said, the tongue is still a Grippli's natural weapon.
Citation Needed. Quote:No, you can't use it to perform a combat maneuver during flurry of blows unless you take the feat to use it, in which case it's a *free* one at Melee-5, as if it were a secondary natural attack. -7 if you function under the TWF rules that Flurry allows.
Incorrect. Feral combat training allows you to attack with a natural weapon as part of your Flurry, in place of unarmed...Zarius2017-07-01T01:19:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#692017-06-24T21:11:03Z2017-06-24T21:11:03Z<p>I think the number one feature of natural attacks is them either saying they are natural attacks or say they are primary or secondary, as you'd get with natural attacks.</p>I think the number one feature of natural attacks is them either saying they are natural attacks or say they are primary or secondary, as you'd get with natural attacks.Cavall2017-06-24T21:11:03ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of Blowstoastedamphibianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#682017-06-24T19:15:22Z2017-06-24T19:15:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Another perspective is to say that it is "not a weapon of any kind" - there are a handful of things you do that way. Several combat maneuvers can't be performed with weapons, such as Bull Rush. No combat maneuver needs to be performed with a weapon. But the consequence is that you also can't gain weapon bonuses.</p>
<p>So if a grippli's tongue is "not a weapon at all" it wouldn't benefit from Magic Fang/Amulet of Mighty Fists because it'd be neither an unarmed strike nor a natural attack. I find that a much less believable outcome really. If it's not a weapon of any kind it also means it doesn't count as a light weapon anymore so you can't use Weapon Finesse on it. </blockquote><p>I would assert that that is the correct perspective. The only "Attacks" you are allowed to make with it are Disarm and Steal, and you will still provoke for those combat maneuvers, nothing in the feat overrides that.Ascalaphus wrote:Another perspective is to say that it is "not a weapon of any kind" - there are a handful of things you do that way. Several combat maneuvers can't be performed with weapons, such as Bull Rush. No combat maneuver needs to be performed with a weapon. But the consequence is that you also can't gain weapon bonuses.So if a grippli's tongue is "not a weapon at all" it wouldn't benefit from Magic Fang/Amulet of Mighty Fists because it'd be neither an unarmed strike nor a natural...toastedamphibian2017-06-24T19:15:22ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsAscalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#672017-06-24T08:51:55Z2017-06-24T08:51:55Z<p>It's a body part that you can use to make some kind of attack without needing Improved Unarmed Strike. That looks like a natural attack to me.</p>
<p>As shown by the giant frog, not all natural attacks deal damage. And the damage values in the universal monster rules are benchmarks for typical natural weapons, not a binding rule that all monsters conform too.</p>
<p>It says so right in those rules:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bestiary > Universal Monster Rules > Natural Attack wrote:</div><blockquote>Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.</blockquote><p>Some critters do more damage. Others don't do damage with natural attacks at all.
<p>Now to me the question of "what kind of thing is a grippli's tongue" is best answered as natural weapon because:</p>
<p><ul>
<br />
<li> It's not a manufactured weapon or spell or supernatural ability.
<br />
<li> It's not an unarmed strike, because you don't need Improved Unarmed Strike to use it safely.
<br />
<li> It's part of your body, so it closely resembles natural attacks.
<br />
<li> It resembles the tongue attack of the giant frog in particular, which is explicitly a natural attack. Grippli are also frogs and both are tongue attacks that don't do damage, so they're very similar.
<br />
</ul></p>
<p>Another perspective is to say that it is "not a weapon of any kind" - there are a handful of things you do that way. Several combat maneuvers can't be performed with weapons, such as Bull Rush. No combat maneuver needs to be performed with a weapon. But the consequence is that you also can't gain weapon bonuses.</p>
<p>So if a grippli's tongue is "not a weapon at all" it wouldn't benefit from Magic Fang/Amulet of Mighty Fists because it'd be neither an unarmed strike nor a natural attack. I find that a much less believable outcome really. If it's not a weapon of any kind it also means it doesn't count as a light weapon anymore so you can't use Weapon Finesse on it.</p>It's a body part that you can use to make some kind of attack without needing Improved Unarmed Strike. That looks like a natural attack to me.
As shown by the giant frog, not all natural attacks deal damage. And the damage values in the universal monster rules are benchmarks for typical natural weapons, not a binding rule that all monsters conform too.
It says so right in those rules:
Bestiary > Universal Monster Rules > Natural Attack wrote:Some creatures treat one or more of their...Ascalaphus2017-06-24T08:51:55ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of Blowstoastedamphibianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#662017-06-24T02:34:37Z2017-06-24T02:34:37Z<p>Unhuh. What about a Gipili fighter? He get a free attack with it during a full attack at -5? Grippli rogue with Major Magic (Chill Touch) gets a free tongue touch attack each round for 1d6+SA negative energy and 1 str damage?</p>
<p>It is not a natural weapon, because it does not say it is a natural weapon. Making it a natural weapon makes it sucky for a monk, while also making it abusable by others. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage.</blockquote><p>Okay... why? Where in the rules does it say it is a natural attack? It is closer in function to a tiefling with Grasping Tail.
<p>There is nothing in the feat to suggest it is a natural weapon.
<br />
You have to make a bunch of exceptions to exclude it from doing the things natural weapons do.
<br />
Most of the things it does are not things you DO with a weapon, natural or otherwise.</p>
<p>How is any of this simpler than saying "You can do X Y and Z with your tongue at 10ft". Ya know, what the feat says? It is a limb, you can do some stuff with it. That's it.</p>
<p>Is it a perceived balance thing? Are people worried that a small creature with a strength penalty attempting to disarm at 10ft instead of 5ft is too much power for a racial feat?</p>Unhuh. What about a Gipili fighter? He get a free attack with it during a full attack at -5? Grippli rogue with Major Magic (Chill Touch) gets a free tongue touch attack each round for 1d6+SA negative energy and 1 str damage?
It is not a natural weapon, because it does not say it is a natural weapon. Making it a natural weapon makes it sucky for a monk, while also making it abusable by others.
Quote:I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage.
Okay... why? Where in the...toastedamphibian2017-06-24T02:34:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#652017-06-27T02:49:39Z2017-06-24T00:07:30Z<p>It's a good example. The most appropriate one yet.</p>
<p>I feel there's a lot of difference with that and what agile tongue does, so to me it's different.</p>
<p>But your due diligence of research is noted and appreciated.</p>It's a good example. The most appropriate one yet.
I feel there's a lot of difference with that and what agile tongue does, so to me it's different.
But your due diligence of research is noted and appreciated.Cavall2017-06-24T00:07:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsDJEternalDarknesshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#642017-06-23T22:49:42Z2017-06-23T22:49:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cavall wrote:</div><blockquote> Is the frog in your example using touch a.c.? </blockquote><p>Nope, read it here:
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/frog.html#frog-giant" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Giant Frog</a></p>
<p>More specifically:</p>
<p>Melee bite +3 (1d6+2 plus grab) or tongue +3 touch (grab)</p>
<p>Tongue (Ex) A giant frog's tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the frog's normal reach (15 feet for a Medium giant frog). A giant frog's tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.</p>Cavall wrote:Is the frog in your example using touch a.c.?
Nope, read it here: Giant Frog
More specifically:
Melee bite +3 (1d6+2 plus grab) or tongue +3 touch (grab)
Tongue (Ex) A giant frog's tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the frog's normal reach (15 feet for a Medium giant frog). A giant frog's tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.DJEternalDarkness2017-06-23T22:49:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#632017-06-23T22:43:34Z2017-06-23T22:43:34Z<p>Is the frog in your example using touch a.c.?</p>Is the frog in your example using touch a.c.?Cavall2017-06-23T22:43:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsDJEternalDarknesshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#622017-06-23T21:58:11Z2017-06-23T21:58:11Z<p>The closest to this in my humble opinion would be the Giant Frog, which does list a Tongue as a primary attack with no damage associated with it, and "A giant frog’s tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the frog’s normal reach (15 feet for a Medium giant frog). A giant frog’s tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner."</p>
<p>At first I was against it because it seemed cheesy, but upon further thought and reading the frog entry, the Tongue is a natural weapon, just one that deals no damage on a hit. So Gripplie with agile tongue and Feral combat training I'd allow it.</p>The closest to this in my humble opinion would be the Giant Frog, which does list a Tongue as a primary attack with no damage associated with it, and "A giant frog’s tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the frog’s normal reach (15 feet for a Medium giant frog). A giant frog’s tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A giant frog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner."
At first I was against it because it seemed...DJEternalDarkness2017-06-23T21:58:11ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#612017-06-23T19:04:18Z2017-06-23T19:04:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Lady-J wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote> I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach. </blockquote>natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weapons </blockquote>Where does it say that? </blockquote><p>Where it lists what damage a primary or secondary natural attack should do. Which is to say, that it does some at all. The tongue isnt listed as a natural weapon nor is it given a classification as to primary or secondary nor is it given a damage die. To.say the least about what A.C. it targets vs natural attacks.
<p>It fails on every level to be a natural weapon.</p>
<p>It is at best a ... natural maneuver?</p>Ascalaphus wrote:Lady-J wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach.
natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weapons Where does it say that? Where it lists what damage a primary or secondary natural attack should do. Which is to say, that it does some at all. The tongue isnt listed as a...Cavall2017-06-23T19:04:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsLady-Jhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#602017-06-23T18:59:34Z2017-06-23T18:59:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Lady-J wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote> I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach. </blockquote>natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weapons </blockquote>Where does it say that? </blockquote><p>the natural weapons table even the natural weapons that fall into the "other" category have specifically called out damage die per sizeAscalaphus wrote:Lady-J wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach.
natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weapons Where does it say that? the natural weapons table even the natural weapons that fall into the "other" category have specifically called out damage die per sizeLady-J2017-06-23T18:59:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsAscalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#592017-06-23T18:56:55Z2017-06-23T18:56:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lady-J wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote> I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach. </blockquote>natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weapons </blockquote><p>Where does it say that?Lady-J wrote:Ascalaphus wrote: I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach.
natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weapons Where does it say that?Ascalaphus2017-06-23T18:56:55ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsLady-Jhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#582017-06-23T18:20:13Z2017-06-23T18:20:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ascalaphus wrote:</div><blockquote> I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach. </blockquote><p>natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weaponsAscalaphus wrote:I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach.
natural weapons require an associated damage that they can do that's why their natural weaponsLady-J2017-06-23T18:20:13ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsAscalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#572017-06-23T17:00:30Z2017-06-23T17:00:30Z<p>I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach.</p>I consider it a natural weapon, but one that can't do damage. You could use it during a feral combat flurry to touch and disarm, but not to deal damage with more than normal reach.Ascalaphus2017-06-23T17:00:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of Blowstoastedamphibianhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#562017-06-21T22:41:09Z2017-06-21T22:41:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Val'bryn2 wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, and since it doesn't meet the criteria of a natural attack, it obviously isn't a natural attack. </blockquote><p>Right. It allows you to make disarm combat maneuvers in a slightly different way. It is not a weapon. So no reason you cannot use it while flurrying.Val'bryn2 wrote:Yes, and since it doesn't meet the criteria of a natural attack, it obviously isn't a natural attack.
Right. It allows you to make disarm combat maneuvers in a slightly different way. It is not a weapon. So no reason you cannot use it while flurrying.toastedamphibian2017-06-21T22:41:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsVal'bryn2https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#552017-06-21T17:47:48Z2017-06-21T17:47:48Z<p>Yes, and since it doesn't meet the criteria of a natural attack, it obviously isn't a natural attack.</p>Yes, and since it doesn't meet the criteria of a natural attack, it obviously isn't a natural attack.Val'bryn22017-06-21T17:47:48ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#542017-06-21T17:34:33Z2017-06-21T17:34:33Z<p>I agree it's not much of an attack at all. It's a way to touch people or take things at reach. That's all.</p>I agree it's not much of an attack at all. It's a way to touch people or take things at reach. That's all.Cavall2017-06-21T17:34:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsVal'bryn2https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#532017-06-21T17:28:20Z2017-06-21T17:26:26Z<p>I think everyone's failing to notice the main reason a grippli's tongue isn't a natural attack, and so can be used in the flurry: what's the damage dice? To be a natural attack, it has to actually deal damage, not just be able to be used to make a melee touch attack that otherwise has absolutely no effect.</p>
<p>Feral Combat Training only comes into play when there's actual damage dice or some other rider effect on the natural weapon. Otherwise, you're making an unarmed attack, unless using a manufactured weapon.</p>I think everyone's failing to notice the main reason a grippli's tongue isn't a natural attack, and so can be used in the flurry: what's the damage dice? To be a natural attack, it has to actually deal damage, not just be able to be used to make a melee touch attack that otherwise has absolutely no effect.
Feral Combat Training only comes into play when there's actual damage dice or some other rider effect on the natural weapon. Otherwise, you're making an unarmed attack, unless using a...Val'bryn22017-06-21T17:26:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#522017-06-21T16:47:36Z2017-06-21T16:47:36Z<p>Well since you prayed for it I'll tell you. Because it's the core book. Are we discussing the optional only unchained book or the base rule book? </p>
<p>But let's look further into this.</p>
<p>Head-Butt: The monk slams his head into his enemy’s head, leaving his foe reeling. If the attack hits and the foe is of the same size or one size smaller than the monk, the monk can make a free combat maneuver check against the target of this strike (using thebase attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe). If the foe is not of the same creature type as the monk, the monk takes a –8 penalty on this check. If the check is successful, the target is staggered for 1 round. Creatures without a discernible head are not affected by this style strike (subject to GM discretion). The monk must attack with a head-butt to use this style strike.</p>
<p>It's a style that specifically allows head butts. To do combat manuevers.</p>
<p>So what you're asking is essentially "since a monk can make a wing buffet attack with X power why are you denying his ability to make wing buffet attacks without it"</p>
<p>You gain a headbutt attack with the style choice head butt. Pray tell why do you cling to the idea something named head butt isn't giving you a head butt?</p>Well since you prayed for it I'll tell you. Because it's the core book. Are we discussing the optional only unchained book or the base rule book?
But let's look further into this.
Head-Butt: The monk slams his head into his enemy’s head, leaving his foe reeling. If the attack hits and the foe is of the same size or one size smaller than the monk, the monk can make a free combat maneuver check against the target of this strike (using thebase attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe)....Cavall2017-06-21T16:47:36ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Agile Tongue and Flurry of BlowsDerklordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uel4&page=2?Agile-Tongue-and-Flurry-of-Blows#512017-06-21T16:24:40Z2017-06-21T16:24:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cavall wrote:</div><blockquote><p>However, I'll quote from the main book again.</p>
<p>"A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet."</p>
<p>That's core book. So clearly it's "specific" on what you can use.</blockquote><p>So you're saying that the list in this quote is exclusive (i.e. you can't use a body part not listed). The exact same list is also in the unMonk's description. Yet, in the unMonk's Head-Butt style strike, it says "The monk must attack with a head-butt to use this style strike."
</p>
If the list you quoted was actually exclusive, it would not only clash with the similar list in the combat rules section of the CRB, it would also mean that an unMonk can never ever use the Head-Butt style strike.</p>
<p>So there are two possible interpretations:
<br />
In one interpretation, the lists are exclusive, which means that the two lists in the CRB clash with each other (with the result that a character looses the ability to make a headbutt when he takes a level of Monk), that the "entire body" statement in the FAQ is completely wrong (as you say it, "GROSSLY misinformed"), and <b>that there exists a Monk class feature that can never be used</b>.
<br />
In the other interpretation, the lists are non-exclusive (i.e. examples), which means that nothing clashes, and everything works.</p>
<p>Pray tell, why do you cling so hard to the first interpretation?</p>Cavall wrote:However, I'll quote from the main book again.
"A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet."
That's core book. So clearly it's "specific" on what you can use.
So you're saying that the list in this quote is exclusive (i.e. you can't use a body part not listed). The exact same list is also in the unMonk's description. Yet, in the unMonk's Head-Butt style strike, it says "The monk must attack with a head-butt to use this style strike."
If the list you quoted was...Derklord2017-06-21T16:24:40Z