TWF+Brawler Flurry+Claws??


Advice


Hello fellow adventures!

I really hope you can help me with the build of one of the PCs. I am the GM and one of the players asked me if his build will be alright or if I have issues with it. To be honest I don't really understand the synergy of all the rules involved, so I hope you could help me. We play a healthy mix of roll and role playing, so some unusual builds are alright with me.

So, my player currently is a Slayer 4/ Brawler 1 with the intention of taking one more level of Brawler and going full on Slayer afterwards.
His race is an Witchwolf Skinwalker.

ST 17(will be 18 at LV8) IN 12
KO 18 WIS 16
DEX 14 CHA 10 (we roll stats)

SO here's the catch: He wants to make use of his natural claws, which come with the Skinwalker. He also fights with a greatsword when in human form.

His relevant feats now: TWF, Weapon Focus (Claws), Feral Combat Training

Soooo... he wants to do the Brawlers Flurry with his claws, because cool. And because the ability Brawlers Flurry says that it works as if (the brawler) has TWF, that must mean, if he takes the other advanced TWF feats, they must increase the amount of attacks with his flurry of claws, without advancing in brawler levels.

My questions here are:
1. Does this work at all??
2. Will Brawlers Flurry ever go beyond two attacks if one does not advance in brawler?
3. Can he somehow get more attacks with his claws at all?
4. Can this be later considered overpowered in ANY way, as he was concerned? It seems ridiculously bad in my opinion.

If something is unclear,I am sorry and will try to give any information you may need.
I would be pleased if anyone could clear out my confusion.

~Gwen


Well.. no.

Natural attacks such as claws do not interact with Brawler's Flurry at all.

Quote:


Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

Additionally..

Quote:
A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.

Nothing (besides Haste or a Speed enchantment) really increases the number of natural attacks you get except adding additional methods of attack. (Bite, wings, tails, tentacles, etc.)

TWF isn't necessary to attack with both claws, either. As primary natural weapons, a Full Attack action can be used to attack with both at your highest attack bonus.


Magentawolf wrote:
A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.
Nothing (besides Haste or a Speed enchantment) really increases the number of natural attacks you get except adding additional methods of attack. (Bite, wings, tails, tentacles, etc.)

Yes, but the feat "Feral Combat Training" does

Quote:

"Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."

So he could flurry with his claws all he want.( I think it is intended that the brawler works as a monk for feats like this. If not RAI, it is at least how I rule the hybrid classes.)


So you can't combine brawler's flurry with natural attacks.
But you for sure CAN use your natural attack in the flurry with feral combat expertise.
And YES, we have dev clarification that you can take feats off of the TWF that is brawler's flurry. So with brawler's flurry you can take ITWF and make more attacks with it when you flurry.


@Calth: Oh deary me, my question would still stand if he multiclaased slayer/monk, so we could just pretend I asked about "TWF/Flurry of Blows+Claws", okey-o? Or is something about these two abilities so fundamentally different that they cannot compare at all?

@Chess Pwn: Oh thank you a lot, that IS actually helpful! Thank you for the link :)


Gwendolyn O'Callan wrote:

@Calth: Oh deary me, my question would still stand if he multiclaased slayer/monk, so we could just pretend I asked about "TWF/Flurry of Blows+Claws", okey-o? Or is something about these two abilities so fundamentally different that they cannot compare at all?

@Chess Pwn: Oh thank you a lot, that IS actually helpful! Thank you for the link :)

I forgot about a FAQ that applies, which changes Feral Combat Training a bit so that it does work with Brawler's Flurry, so I deleted my initial post.


Fair enough on the Feral Combat Training, I suppose, but why isn't he just doing a Full Attack with his natural weapons, instead of futzing about with Brawler's Flurry?

As a Witchwolf Skinwalker, he's got two claws and a bite already.


There's actually a super cool combat you can do with this.

At lv8ish you can get ITWF for your flurry, so now you're making 4 claw attacks. Since you have feral combat training you can look into getting dragon style and dragon ferocity which apply to your claws now. Now that the claws are primary natural attacks doing 1.5 str they get the better power attack ratio. So now you're flurrying with effectively a two handed weapon.

Don't know if that was the plan for the build. If he's just looking to do full attacks with normal claws then I agree that it's a waste.


Pretty sure that does not (or atleast is not intended to) work, chess pwn.

Quote:
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands.

Op: yeah, it seems like his idea should work, no I don't see it becoming particularly good at any point so long as you treat them like unarmed strikes (ie attacks from bab and flurry, no secondary natural weapon attacks added on in addition to that)

Your concern about it being pretty weak is well founded. Id probably allow FCT to bump his claw damage up to his unarmed strike damage as it did pre eratta.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Pretty sure that does not (or atleast is not intended to) work, chess pwn.

Actually, nevermind on that. Apparently that is a debated topic of which I have no previous knowledge. Sorry.


Magentawolf wrote:

Fair enough on the Feral Combat Training, I suppose, but why isn't he just doing a Full Attack with his natural weapons, instead of futzing about with Brawler's Flurry?

As a Witchwolf Skinwalker, he's got two claws and a bite already.

He only has 2 claws and a bite if he has the feat extra feature.

There seems to be a lot of people that believe you get all of the alternate bestial features (you only get 1; you get another if you take the extra feature feat).


Thank you all for your replies! :)

Magentawolf wrote:


Fair enough on the Feral Combat Training, I suppose, but why isn't he just doing a Full Attack with his natural weapons, instead of futzing about with Brawler's Flurry?

Good question, I believe he wants to be able to "Just be able to beat up some tavern dudes" with his fists (minus the claws) as well, haha

Chess Pwn wrote:


Interesting stuff

Hmm, that makes me curios, I will look at these feats. He told me he wants to take Boar Style at one point, I will tell him about the dragon style, then. I'm glad that you guys at the board here know your stuff so well and there is always someone with a relevant link.

There is no way I would have found out about these feats/clarifications without help. :D

toastedamphibian wrote:

Op: yeah, it seems like his idea should work, no I don't see it becoming particularly good at any point so long as you treat them like unarmed strikes (ie attacks from bab and flurry, no secondary natural weapon attacks added on in addition to that)

Your concern about it being pretty weak is well founded. Id probably allow FCT to bump his claw damage up to his unarmed strike damage as it did pre eratta.

I actually never thought about allowing him natural attacks on top of flurry, that seems pretty much op.

I didn't know about that. I will think about it as well.

nicholas storm wrote:


He only has 2 claws and a bite if he has the feat extra feature.

I know that. :) He actually HAS that feat, I just didn't list it, because it didn't matter for my question.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / TWF+Brawler Flurry+Claws?? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.