Are Mediums better Rogues?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


3/4ths BAB

Good will saves

1+1/4th level bonus on all skills checks (one more from a feat)

Auto sneak attack on the first hit

4th level casting with super early access to many spells

Higher level abilities to steal magic and use polymorph

Can be strength based

6+int skill points per level but two of them can be changed day by day.

Great gather information abilities.


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All other classes are better than rogues. Mediums are an other class. Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Dark Archive

Nah. Their Sneak Attack is a bit sketchier than the Rogue version, they don't get as many skill points, and they lack the dynamic approach of skill unlocks. Plus, they have the most stress free dex to damage option in the game and a list of decent Tricks.

Scarab Sages

Hidden strike damage is less than sneak attack, and letting the trickster spirit get influence over you can result in you betraying your party.


Mediums are pretty poor as a class, though there are some interesting stuff you can do with them (though I think as a whole they really, really struggle to fulfill multiple roles at once).

If it's core rogue, I'd definitely say yes because Mediums fill so many more niches than the CRogue can, and can slip into those niches more naturally.

If it's Unchained Rogue, then the URogue wins out because Rogue's Edge is damn powerful for skill users, and their rogue talents are really potent. Also, many of the archetypes the URogue can take utilize specific tools (Phantom Thief for skills, Eldritch Scoundrel for magic, Knife Master/Scout for Sneak Attack) available to rogues better than the scattered tools of the Medium. Mediums can still do things like taking magic crafting feats to make loads of magic items on particular days and can possibly be anything the party needs in a given day, but URogue thoroughly does rogue better than the Medium's limited take on it, and URogue has many of these options as well, just that they cannot switch into them like a Medium can.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Mediums are pretty poor as a class, though there are some interesting stuff you can do with them (though I think as a whole they really, really struggle to fulfill multiple roles at once).

yeah, I am always kind of dubious when it comes to using them for anything other than champion.

Champion is surprisingly great. The total +6 to attack brings them up to around the same range as full BAB classes once you factor in the fact that they don't get the last two levels of power attack. Damage doesn't suffer much with the damage bonuses. Add in the extra full BAB attack adn pseudo pounce, and they are doing fine as a melee character. With the right build, they can get out 4 full BAB attacks (two main, one from hurtful/cornugon smash, and once from haste on your spell list). Especially nice since you can grab falcatas from the free EWP.

Trying to be a dedicated caster is 'meh' for them, but having the option to get 6 spell levels when necessary is decent. I would tend more toward the hierophant than archmage (since it can still use the same armor used for champion), but both are nice as back up.

Anything else.... yeah, I pretty much agree with you. The lack of attack bonuses bring them to 'core rogue' levels. Maybe use the trickster as a back up spirit with the later medium stuff that lets you borrow a second one... but past that? No, not really interested.

Dark Archive

Yeah, Medium casting feels slightly underwhelming to me. 6th level casting goes best with a supplemental class feature; Magus Spell Combat, Warpriest swift action buffing, Summoners having an Eidolon to buff, etc.

I think a well managed Spirit Dancer is the best way to have a Medium that makes full use of their kit, but that isn's so conductive to playing a "rogue" style character.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
All other classes are better than rogues. Mediums are an other class. Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

This.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

Mediums are pretty poor as a class, though there are some interesting stuff you can do with them (though I think as a whole they really, really struggle to fulfill multiple roles at once).

If it's core rogue, I'd definitely say yes because Mediums fill so many more niches than the CRogue can, and can slip into those niches more naturally.

If it's Unchained Rogue, then the URogue wins out because Rogue's Edge is damn powerful for skill users, and their rogue talents are really potent. Also, many of the archetypes the URogue can take utilize specific tools (Phantom Thief for skills, Eldritch Scoundrel for magic, Knife Master/Scout for Sneak Attack) available to rogues better than the scattered tools of the Medium. Mediums can still do things like taking magic crafting feats to make loads of magic items on particular days and can possibly be anything the party needs in a given day, but URogue thoroughly does rogue better than the Medium's limited take on it, and URogue has many of these options as well, just that they cannot switch into them like a Medium can.

Skill edge isn't a +6 bonus to all skill roles and I do not think they overcome in utility what spell casting and being able to infinitely question the dead (at 5th level spell effect at level 5!) gives with skill unlocks. And being able to pick two skills tailored to the day just overall wins out the rogue in skill utility. A lot of the Edge abilities are only really good because you NEED sneak attack to function.

For damage, you can cast haste and heroism on yourself (as 2nd level spells) and are strength based. You don't need to flank (sometimes suicidally) or dance through the skill rolls hoops to get Sneak attack but you do only get one unless your team can get them dex denied. Furthermore, your medium armor and reach weapons means you'll live a lot longer in melee than a rogue.

If a rogue specializes in magic, combat, or skill they may beat out a medium, but overall strength still goes to the medium using one of his weaker spirits.


Rhedyn wrote:
Skill edge isn't a +6 bonus to all skill roles and I do not think they overcome in utility what spell casting and being able to infinitely question the dead (at 5th level spell effect at level 5!) gives with skill unlocks. And being able to pick two skills tailored to the day just overall wins out the rogue in skill utility. A lot of the Edge abilities are only really good because you NEED sneak attack to function.

I won't deny, the skill stuff Trickster does is cool, on top of all the other stuff mediums can do any given day, but I'll contest by saying the rogue isn't really meant to do everything all at once. Not many characters besides Medium can, and that's the mediums strength overall. Any halfling medium's are particularly baller at the thing they do each day. But as you point out, if the rogue specialises, they'll be better at X. Literally every other class does that. It's not necessarily a strength mediums have over rogues in particular, it's a strength mediums have in a party composition in comparison to every single other class. I think it's kind of poorly constructed overall as a class, but at least it does it's thing.

Quote:
For damage, you can cast haste and heroism on yourself (as 2nd level spells) and are strength based. You don't need to flank (sometimes suicidally) or dance through the skill rolls hoops to get Sneak attack but you do only get one unless your team can get them dex denied. Furthermore, your medium armor and reach weapons means you'll live a lot longer in melee than a rogue.

You get those spells at 7th level for a medium (and earlier if you use Archmage, since it doesn't stop being 2nd level for mediums, so you can start casting it at 4th. It's summoner all over again!), and any given arcane spellcaster is hopefully putting those on a rogue for them and have done since 5th level. If there isn't any arcane spellcasters to do it for the rogue, well, there are plenty of buffs a divine caster can throw on the rogue instead (but ah...you really should have someone able to cast haste on any martial, just saying). And if these spellcasters exist, any amount of spellcasting the medium could provide is negligible in comparison while a trickster. (again, looking at Archmage, that spirit is just silly good when you appreciate the early spell access mediums get, and 20th level access to any 9th level spell once per day? Excuse me?)

Secondly, you get one free Surprise Attack against a given opponent. Then what? How are you causing the creature to become flat-footed in the following rounds? A rogue has lots of methods for getting their sneak attack, and most of them aren't any more 'suicidal' than trying to play any character in melee. It's the reality of all martials. The difficulty for rogues (and anyone who uses precision damage) is in consistency of damage against a large variance of enemies who may or may not be immune to your precision damage (which Tricksters equally has problems dealing with) or your particular method of getting sneak attack. At least Tricksters get to have one free 'sneak attack' against an opponent, but if we really wanted to be talking about damage, Champions your man.

(Also, rogues have a reach weapon. It's an Elven Branched Spear. Not difficult to obtain proficiency, either, thanks to Half-elves and Ancestral Weapon. They even get 1-1/2 Dex with it. Seems good to me. only problem is medium armour, but I mean, there's always celestial breastplates. Really, I'd be excited for medium's being able to cast spells in any armour, and getting heavy armour proficiency so you can go flipping around in mithral fullplate)

Quote:
If a rogue specializes in magic, combat, or skill they may beat out a medium, but overall strength still goes to the medium using one of his weaker spirits.

None of this constitutes overall strength, it means mediums have the potential to be lots of things with the right prep. If that's the milestone for a given class, I don't think anyone can beat a medium. But I'd be impressed if you could accurately gauge what you need each and every single day to get the right skill ranks without divination or forewarning of some sort, and more often you're going to fall back on more consistent spirits. And those spirits can be really good, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't speak for the overall diversity you're touting.

Also, did you forget about the Trickster's taboo? That is actually really easy to fail and genuinely disruptive, so I'd rather not become a protean interloper that wants to kill my friends...


The Medium is kind of a great concept, but a missed opportunity. I don't so much see it as a better rogue so much as a competent frontliner (with the Champion) who can be counted on to do rogue stuff or cast utility spells during off-days. I hope someday we get a Medium archetype where you can easily swap spirits without having to closely track rounds (the Spirit Dancer isn't that useful if you want to channel the Trickster for a garden party.)

That channeling the trickster allows you to be world class3at two different skills every day is fun though (that way you can show up to the aforementioned garden party as an expert on any two things you suspect may impress the gallery.)


I am playing a medium and I would say trickster is my main spec day to day, but it has only seen use in two sessions.

The first time, I needed acrobatics and stealth to chase down an acrobatic robber in a city. The second I grabbed survival and drive because we were tracking people down (and no one had the skill) outside the city and we were driving a vehicle (that no one had the skill for)

Both times a rogue wouldn't have worked. The first time a rogue was in the party. He was a sniper but the enemy made a smoke screen to give himself total concealment. My medium could do melee so it didn't matter (only 20% within 5ft) and my ac was higher. I did as much sneak attack as the rogue, but I didn't have dice that level.

The second time, no rogue burns skill points on survival and drive because they are situational. That is not a problem for a medium. I helped us find the things and then I casted haste on the party four the fight and didn't need to even enter melee.

So, by personal experience my none of my rogues would have done better then my trickster medium did.


You can compare the Inquisitors with the Rogues ...

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